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WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit mines in your WitP test games?

 
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WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit min... - 6/16/2004 2:17:14 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit mines in your WitP test games?


I am asking this because this was my "pet annoyance" from UV and I was very glad to hear that in WitP there is a chance now that both submarines and MSW ships (MSWs and DMSs) can hit mines (as opposed to UV where this was impossible to happen).

Nonetheless I never heard info of players actually reporting such occurrences (pardon me if I am wrong and somehow missed this from some of AARs)...


Thanks in advance!


Leo "Apollo11"
Post #: 1
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/16/2004 2:23:24 PM   
DoomedMantis


Posts: 1922
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Gary has made moves so that subs can hit mines, but I havent seen any of mine do it. Mind you I tend to keep my subs out of areas where I would expect to see mines, but for other reasons

_____________________________

I shall make it a felony to drink small beer.

- Shakespeare

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 2
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/16/2004 2:33:20 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: DoomedMantis

Gary has made moves so that subs can hit mines, but I havent seen any of mine do it. Mind you I tend to keep my subs out of areas where I would expect to see mines, but for other reasons


Yes, just as I wrote in my initial message, I distinctively remember that many many months ago someone from Matrix/2by wrote that code was changed so that now submarines and MSW ships (MSWs and DMSs) can hit mines.

I was _VERY_ glad to hear that!


Unfortunately your answer saddened me... I though that this was common occurrence now...


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to DoomedMantis)
Post #: 3
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/16/2004 3:54:00 PM   
pry


Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline 		The chance for a sub to hit a mine is very small but it can and does happen, MSW and DMS the chance is much higher and happens much more often. In a recent test game I sailed 10 Japanese MSW into Hong Kong to clear the port of Allied mines after it fell and 3 of them hit mines while sweeping on the 1st turn.

Subs hitting mines on the other hand is not, nor was it during the war a common occurrence. Mines played a very small role in submarine losses during the war.

Only 3 Allied subs (Albacore SS-215, Escolar SS-294 and Flier SS-250) were presumed to have been sunk by mines during the war. Only 5 Japanese sub losses (RO-64, I-30, RO-100, RO-103 and I-363) are speculated to have been lost to mines.

Mines are not the uber weapon and not as readily available like they were in UV, they work as part of your overall strategy but play a much smaller tactical role due to the size of the game. You must have a size 9 port or MLE and enough supplies available in order to load mines so the importance of mines is toned down in WitP to a more historical level.

_____________________________


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 4
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/16/2004 4:10:16 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: pry

The chance for a sub to hit a mine is very small but it can and does happen, MSW and DMS the chance is much higher and happens much more often. In a recent test game I sailed 10 Japanese MSW into Hong Kong to clear the port of Allied mines after it fell and 3 of them hit mines while sweeping on the 1st turn.


Thanks for info!

Good news BTW!!!


quote:


Subs hitting mines on the other hand is not, nor was it during the war a common occurrence. Mines played a very small role in submarine losses during the war.

Only 3 Allied subs (Albacore SS-215, Escolar SS-294 and Flier SS-250) were presumed to have been sunk by mines during the war. Only 5 Japanese sub losses (RO-64, I-30, RO-100, RO-103 and I-363) are speculated to have been lost to mines.


I know... but I also think that much bigger mine operation was against German subs and that they did suffer more looses (must check this thought - I am saying this from memory)...


Nevertheless, do you ever recall any tester ever saying that he saw sub hit a mine in WitP?


quote:


Mines are not the uber weapon and not as readily available like they were in UV, they work as part of your overall strategy but play a much smaller tactical role due to the size of the game. You must have a size 9 port or MLE and enough supplies available in order to load mines so the importance of mines is toned down in WitP to a more historical level.


That is _VERY_ good news (and I must say that I always expected that from WitP)!

BTW, we also heard that there is mine decay (even in shallow water) which is also much welcomed!!!


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to pry)
Post #: 5
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/16/2004 4:44:15 PM   
pry


Posts: 1410
Joined: 12/6/2002
From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Nevertheless, do you ever recall any tester ever saying that he saw sub hit a mine in WitP?


To answer your question, Yes I have seen it I have not kept exact count but in my tests and test games I have seen a few sunk by mines and a few that take damage from mines and not sink.

quote:




BTW, we also heard that there is mine decay (even in shallow water) which is also much welcomed!!!

Leo "Apollo11"


I forget off the top of my head the rate of decay for each hex type Mines decay in all hexes even shallow water. They also decay at a reduced rate for friendly port hexes, the asumption being that crews are tending to the mine fields in friendly ports but even they will decay over time.

_____________________________


(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 6
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/16/2004 4:54:47 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: pry

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Nevertheless, do you ever recall any tester ever saying that he saw sub hit a mine in WitP?


To answer your question, Yes I have seen it I have not kept exact count but in my tests and test games I have seen a few sunk by mines and a few that take damage from mines and not sink.


Good enough (we know now that it is possible to happen) - many thanks for info!


quote:


quote:


BTW, we also heard that there is mine decay (even in shallow water) which is also much welcomed!!!


I forget off the top of my head the rate of decay for each hex type Mines decay in all hexes even shallow water. They also decay at a reduced rate for friendly port hexes, the asumption being that crews are tending to the mine fields in friendly ports but even they will decay over time.


Yes... and there is also nice counter to show how many mines are in friendly HEX in WitP...


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to pry)
Post #: 7
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/16/2004 7:46:58 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Yes... and there is also nice counter to show how many mines are in friendly HEX in WitP...


That's for how many of your own mines are in a hex you control, right? You can't see how many enemy mines are there I hope.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 8
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/16/2004 7:52:31 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Yes... and there is also nice counter to show how many mines are in friendly HEX in WitP...


That's for how many of your own mines are in a hex you control, right? You can't see how many enemy mines are there I hope.


Yes - I am sure it works that way (at least this is how I recall the explanation from Matrix/2By3).

We were told (by Mike Wood - I am 100% it was him) that only your own mines are listed.

The only think I don't know is whether this works only for friendly HEX (i.e. your own) that contains port base or for any base and/or "dot" HEX...


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Damien Thorn)
Post #: 9
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/16/2004 7:54:16 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline 		The diplay of mines is on the base panel. If there is no base, there is no way to bring up the base panel so you can't see whats there.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 10
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/16/2004 8:01:43 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The diplay of mines is on the base panel. If there is no base, there is no way to bring up the base panel so you can't see whats there.


RGR.

Thanks for info!


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 11
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/17/2004 10:34:03 AM   
DoomedMantis


Posts: 1922
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Correct


quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

quote:

ORIGINAL: Apollo11

Yes... and there is also nice counter to show how many mines are in friendly HEX in WitP...


That's for how many of your own mines are in a hex you control, right? You can't see how many enemy mines are there I hope.


_____________________________

I shall make it a felony to drink small beer.

- Shakespeare

(in reply to Damien Thorn)
Post #: 12
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/17/2004 10:43:51 AM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		Air Dropped Mine Question:

On the Witp web site it talks about the allies having air dropped mines in 1943, what about Japan?

(in reply to DoomedMantis)
Post #: 13
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/17/2004 11:21:09 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

The diplay of mines is on the base panel. If there is no base, there is no way to bring up the base panel so you can't see whats there.


Is there a way to "mark" such a hex on the main map once you know mines are
present? Or do you have to stop and check the "port screens" every time? It would
be nice if you had the option to add a small colored dot to a hex on the main screen
for playability. So a player could use a red dot to mark a "discovered" minefield,
maybe a yellow to deliniate his search patterns. Even th ability to add 3 "dots" of
different colors as play aids for planning and routing would be very useful. It's
impractical to use a "grease marker" on your computer screen.

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 14
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/17/2004 12:33:05 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		This would be a nice upgrade, assuming it isn't in the initial build, that is the ability of players to "mark" the maps..

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 15
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/17/2004 1:19:41 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Is there a way to "mark" such a hex on the main map once you know mines are
present? Or do you have to stop and check the "port screens" every time? It would
be nice if you had the option to add a small colored dot to a hex on the main screen
for playability. So a player could use a red dot to mark a "discovered" minefield,
maybe a yellow to deliniate his search patterns. Even th ability to add 3 "dots" of
different colors as play aids for planning and routing would be very useful. It's
impractical to use a "grease marker" on your computer screen.


In UV there is small dot that denotes minefield in HEX (it lists every friendly offensive/defensive laid minefield and lists enemy minefields when you detect them).

I think WitP must be exactly the same regarding this. The number of friendly mines is only new thing (I think) and different from UV in this field (and, as we were told, you see number of mines in base screen)...


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 16
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/17/2004 1:28:24 PM   
Subchaser


Posts: 1201
Joined: 11/15/2002
Status: offline 		BTW, any new minesweeping rules? In UV it’s possible to sweep a minefield with a single minesweeper without any risk to hit a mine.

_____________________________


(in reply to pry)
Post #: 17
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/17/2004 3:44:28 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
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From: Purgatory
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quote:

BTW, any new minesweeping rules? In UV it’s possible to sweep a minefield with a single minesweeper without any risk to hit a mine.


New:

Minesweepers can hit mines.

and

CD units protect minefields!

No more sweeping under the noses of the guns while they wave at you!

< Message edited by Mr.Frag -- 6/17/2004 8:44:38 AM >

(in reply to Subchaser)
Post #: 18
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/17/2004 4:33:04 PM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

BTW, any new minesweeping rules? In UV it’s possible to sweep a minefield with a single minesweeper without any risk to hit a mine.


New:

Minesweepers can hit mines.


I like that...

BTW, I think I remember reading that small craft (like MSW, PC, PG) can be build when sunk and that there are no limits for them.

Is this correct (and if "yes", how long it takes to build MSW)?


quote:


CD units protect minefields!

No more sweeping under the noses of the guns while they wave at you!


_GREAT_ news!

Thanks Matrix/2by3!


I also think that now there are restriction in WitP for auxiliary minesweeping ships (DDs, DEs, PCs) regarding speed (i.e. no more min sweeps if at high speed)!



At the end one question regarding actual mine sweeping (and possible difference form UV)- Raymond can you answer if this was, perhaps changed:


In UV there is one serious peculiarity with mine fields and enemy MSW/DMS actions...


Explanation:

When (even single) enemy MSW/DMS ship(s) enters HEX where the mines are laid it detects and starts clearing _EVERY_ minefield there is.

It doesn't matter if there is one (1) or twenty (20) different minefields there - your enemy will know exactly how many there are and (even single) enemy MSW/DMS ship(s) will start clearing each and every one of them.

Is this the same in WitP?


IMHO, every MSW/DMS ship should be able to detect and start clearing just one minefield (it's impossible that in single execution phase even one single enemy MSW/DMS ship can detect and start clearing _EVERY_ minefield you laid in one HEX).


Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 19
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/17/2004 9:45:14 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline 		Apollo11,

I think the only small ships that can be rebuilt (respawned) are minesweepers.

In WitP there is only 1 minefield per hex, I believe, and more minelaying missions in that hex just add to that field. I believe they also said that, in UV, there was no difference between one minefield in a hex with X mines and two minefields with X/2 mines.

(in reply to Apollo11)
Post #: 20
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/18/2004 10:54:02 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Damien Thorn

I think the only small ships that can be rebuilt (respawned) are minesweepers.


OK.

BTW, anyone knows how much time it takes for MSW to be built?


quote:


In WitP there is only 1 minefield per hex, I believe, and more minelaying missions in that hex just add to that field. I believe they also said that, in UV, there was no difference between one minefield in a hex with X mines and two minefields with X/2 mines.


I am sure that this is not correct.

We had this very same discussion few months ago and it was said by Matrix/2by3 people that WitP is same as UV in this department.

In other words in one HEX there can be several minefields (each laid down by separate minelaying TF).

BTW, the base window shows combined number of all mines in all minefields.


Leo "Apollo11"


P.S.
I will now try to find that thread where this was discussed.

(in reply to Damien Thorn)
Post #: 21
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/18/2004 11:37:21 AM   
Apollo11


Posts: 24082
Joined: 6/7/2001
From: Zagreb, Croatia
Status: offline 		Hi all,

I found the thread:

"Minefields in WitP..."

http://www.matrixgames.com/default.asp?URL=http%3A//www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp%3Fm%3D562346


In it Mike Wood (lead programmer) wrote two times:


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood

There is often more than one mine field in a hex. Each mine field layed by a ship is a separate field. What I show on the base screen is the total number of mines in the hex.

Hope this Helps...

Michael Wood




quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Wood
Each run from a mine layer deposits mines in a new and unique field. The way the code is written, there is no difference between one big field or many small ones with regards to placing, chances on hitting, sweeping or navigating through these mines.

When the task force enters the hex and during the movement phase of subsequent turns, it undergoes a mine attack. The type of task force, task force speed, hex terrain type, type and maneuverability of each ship, crew and leader skills and a random factor determine the chances of a ship hitting a mine.

Chances of minesweepers and submarines have been increased in War in the Pacific by 50% and 500%, respectively. Ships sweeping mines now stand a greater chance of undergoing attacks from shore batteries. Ad hoc mine sweeping activities may only be undertaken by ships traveling at 15 knots of less.

Level bombers may mine ports, if flying from a base with a size 6 or greater airfield that has sufficient supply.

Hope this Helps...

Michael Wood



Leo "Apollo11"

(in reply to Damien Thorn)
Post #: 22
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/18/2004 12:04:01 PM   
Subchaser


Posts: 1201
Joined: 11/15/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

BTW, any new minesweeping rules? In UV it’s possible to sweep a minefield with a single minesweeper without any risk to hit a mine.


New:

Minesweepers can hit mines.

and

CD units protect minefields!

No more sweeping under the noses of the guns while they wave at you!


Thanks, now what about non-MSW/DMS ships ability to detect and destroy mines, is it still there? I’m asking cause I can’t understand how destroyer can detect and destroy magnetic or acoustic mine and stay intact… or all mines in WitP are moored a priori?

_____________________________


(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 23
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/18/2004 3:37:17 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
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quote:

Thanks, now what about non-MSW/DMS ships ability to detect and destroy mines, is it still there? I’m asking cause I can’t understand how destroyer can detect and destroy magnetic or acoustic mine and stay intact… or all mines in WitP are moored a priori?


DD's have lookouts, lookouts spot mines. They shoot at them. Sometimes they get the mine, sometimes the mine gets them. Speed plays a role here.

(in reply to Subchaser)
Post #: 24
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/18/2004 5:40:24 PM   
Subchaser


Posts: 1201
Joined: 11/15/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mr.Frag

quote:

Thanks, now what about non-MSW/DMS ships ability to detect and destroy mines, is it still there? I’m asking cause I can’t understand how destroyer can detect and destroy magnetic or acoustic mine and stay intact… or all mines in WitP are moored a priori?


DD's have lookouts, lookouts spot mines. They shoot at them. Sometimes they get the mine, sometimes the mine gets them. Speed plays a role here.


Not only speed should be taken into account here, lookouts were usually able to spot a minefield when ship was going at it at low tide and in daylight, when ship was moving at low speeds it was easier to avoid detected minefield. In UV lookouts somehow can spot mines at night. BTW it’s impossible to spot ground laid influence mine.

Since we’re talking about mines I want to recommend this book, thanks to Arnold Lott I do not think that mine warfare was the most boring type of naval operations anymore.

Most Dangerous Sea

Any ship can be a minesweeper... at least once

< Message edited by Subchaser -- 6/18/2004 6:41:56 PM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Mr.Frag)
Post #: 25
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/18/2004 5:49:20 PM   
Mr.Frag


Posts: 13410
Joined: 12/18/2002
From: Purgatory
Status: offline
quote:

Any ship can be a minesweeper... at least once


Thats worthy of a tag line!

(in reply to Subchaser)
Post #: 26
RE: WitP ALPHA/BETA testers: did subs and MSWs/DMSs hit... - 6/18/2004 6:08:30 PM   
Damien Thorn

 

Posts: 1107
Joined: 7/24/2003
Status: offline 		Well, it looks like I was wrong about the one minefield per hex thing. But I was right about the only thing mattering is the total number of mines per hex. It doesn't matter if they are all in one minefield or several. Actually, I like having more than one minefield per hex, for some reason.

(in reply to Subchaser)
Post #: 27
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