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Some things to look at... - 5/26/2000 10:53:00 AM

Dean Robb

Posts: 204
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Va Beach, VA USA
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Right off...GOOD JOB, GUYS! Why didn't you tell me about this when I worked for TGN?

All in all, I'm finding SPWAW a lot of fun. Seriously eating into my sleep time (what little I get anyway). But I've found a few things that are bothering me - apologies if they've been mentioned before; I scanned the whole board to avoid duplication but may have missed some things. Comments and debate welcomed. 1. Units with close range assault weapons (satchel charges, Molotov's, etc.) don't use them in an assault. They'll use them against other infantry units, but hang on to them when assaulting vehicles and fortifications. Most annoying to work one's engineers around behind the bunker only to find they won't toss that bag o' boom into it. Even deselecting every other weapon in the loadout doesn't work. 1a. Along this line, infantry with grenades should, IMO, get a "bonus" to their assault to mimic tossing the ol' pineapple in through the firing slits/ventilation/etc. For all intent and purposes, once an infantry unit got behind a fortification, the strongpoint was toast in real life. 1b. What's the logic behind units being told to assault who don't but DO suffer serious disruption? I've never figured that one out. 2. The bomb issue. What appears to happen is that planes with bombs will drop them (the message "xxx bombing hex" pops up) but they "get lost" - the bombs don't fall, no explosion, etc. 3. Agree that a/c accuracy is a bit too low. Especially when there's a long, clear approach to a spotted target, I should be getting some hits. A/C were great tank killers...but they're not very useful right now. 3a. I don't know that I agree that aircraft are too fragile. Ground attack was *HIGHLY* dangerous...you were much more likely to buy it from ground fire than another pilot. However, even if an aircraft it hit, it should return unless it's severely damaged. A bullet hole in the fuselage isn't going to ground a plane; a whole bunch of them will. Might want to tweak the percentage chance that a damaged aircraft will return upwards some. Pretty aggravating to see all your mud movers parked with 2-3 damage values, especially the dedicated attack planes. 4. Morale is waaaaay too high for these units. When I kill 10 out of 12 guys in a platoon in one turn...the platoon is gonna be a lot more than "pinned". For units with traditionally very high morale (USMC), give them a better rally number - we can consider the retreat to be merely falling back to regroup

. 5. Smoke disapates too quickly. It appears that smoke counts the turn it's popped as one of it's persistance turns. This means, for example, that popping the smoke dischargers on a tank in turn 5 is useless because the smoke is disappated by turn 6. At the least, the smoke should be good for the turn immediately following the one in which it's popped. 6. Arty is too inaccurate. With each hex being 50 yds across, the majority of rounds should fall in hex. Even WWII artillery was accurate enough to pull that off. The current scattering of up to 200 yards *when the target is spotted* is unsat. In the first (Kursk) scenario, I called in 4 volleys of 150mm on a hex; the spotter had a clear LOS and an arty rating of 52 - and NOT ONE of the rounds landed on target. I actually found the arty model in SP:WW2 to be pretty reasonable...maybe that could be plugged in? 6a. The entire unspotted artillery paradigm needs to be examined. In real life, what's gonna happen is the observer guesses at the target location and the artillery shoots at that location. The scatter that currently is modelled simply doesn't happen...the guns don't shoot all over the place, they shoot accurately at the (possibly) wrong place. This is especially true when the unspotted fire is on a hex offset from an aimpoint. Perhaps an "area fire" option needs to be added to the artillery page to allow scattered, harrasing fires. 6b. Counterbattery fire: WAAAAY too much of it. In playing the first (Kursk) scenario, I was trying to save my 105mm until I had solid targets. I never got to use them - they shot off all their ammo on c/b. 6c. Arty effectiveness is too low...but this likely ties in to the testosterone-flushed units. Arty isn't a great tank-killer, but it is a pretty good tank scarer and immobilizer. Tracks don't like sudden deep craters forming beneath them

. Once the soldiers realize that they are, indeed, but mortal men I think the effectiveness will increase to realistic levels. 6d. If C&C is off, how is it that I have off-board batteries "out of contact"? Especially since they're NOT shoot 'n scooting? And there's no c/b against them? 7. Mines. I don't like the "may or may not attack" nature of mines in SPWAW. It's just really, really hard to accept that 5 infantry units can move through a hex and not notice (or be attacked by) the minefield (especially when we KNOW there are mines around!). I can understand buttoned vehicles not spotting mines very well, but infantry in a mine environment are gonna be looking for them; using metal detectors, etc. And if a vehicle moves safely through a mined hex, then successive units should be able to move through them safely too because once you know that mines are present in an operational area, drivers are supposed to follow in the tracks of the preceding vehicles. So mines should be a bit easier for infantry to spot (esp. moving slowly) and they should be less random in going off. 8. Resupply. I think the reload rate needs to be increased. While it may be realistic to have units reload slowly, it hurts gameplay. In practice, once a unit is out of ammo (or a type of ammo), you may as well just park it out of the way because the battle will be over by the time it's reloaded. I'd suggest a fixed number of rounds...say 10/turn. With a "typical" load being around 25 rounds of a certain ammo type, you're talking a unit being out of action for 3 turns, PLUS a couple of turns getting to the ammo truck and a couple more getting back to the FEBA. Being out of action for 7-10 turns should be adequate penalty

. 8b. The penalty for multiple units resupplying is unrealistic. It assumes that only the crew of the ammo truck is humping bullets. In reality, most of the combat crew is humping the rounds for their unit so several units should be able to resupply from one truck with no penalties. But SPWAW still beats the hell outa anything else around...

.

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Post #: 1

- 5/27/2000 3:06:00 AM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Dean Robb: Right off...GOOD JOB, GUYS! Why didn't you tell me about this when I worked for TGN? [snip] 5. Smoke disapates too quickly. It appears that smoke counts the turn it's popped as one of it's persistance turns. This means, for example, that popping the smoke dischargers on a tank in turn 5 is useless because the smoke is disappated by turn 6. At the least, the smoke should be good for the turn immediately following the one in which it's popped.

Disagree, smoke canisters on tanks are meant to break the enemy's LOS while you maneuver away from dangerous fires. It was not designed to hide behind, thats for arty smoke rounds and smoke generators. In 2 minutes the smoke will disipate, I've seen it for real. Hmmm, Matrix, can you add smoke generation units? Jeep/truck/stationary generator that lays smoke in the hex its in?

quote:

6a. The entire unspotted artillery paradigm needs to be examined. [snip]...the guns don't shoot all over the place, they shoot accurately at the (possibly) wrong place. [snip]

Agree, this is more realistic!

quote:

6b. Counterbattery fire: WAAAAY too much of it.[snip]

I've not seen any CB fire yet? Do I have to do something other than just not fire my arty?

quote:

6d. If C&C is off, how is it that I have off-board batteries "out of contact"? Especially since they're NOT shoot 'n scooting? And there's no c/b against them?

Really! I asked the same question in another thread.

quote:

7. Mines. I don't like the "may or may not attack" nature of mines in SPWAW. It's just really, really hard to accept that 5 infantry units can move through a hex and not notice (or be attacked by) the minefield (especially when we KNOW there are mines around!). I can understand buttoned vehicles not spotting mines very well, but infantry in a mine environment are gonna be looking for them; using metal detectors, etc. And if a vehicle moves safely through a mined hex, then successive units should be able to move through them safely too because once you know that mines are present in an operational area, drivers are supposed to follow in the tracks of the preceding vehicles. So mines should be a bit easier for infantry to spot (esp. moving slowly) and they should be less random in going off.

Disagree with this. I've laid and cleared mines. It takes a half hour to really clear a lane 100 yards long. You've got to get down and probe. Only one man is probing with others following, that way if he sets one off, he doesn't effect others nearby. Infantry doesn't carry mine detectors. While tanks can follow in tracks, it completely prevents them from maneuvering. No tank commander would have his units do this unless he knew the limits of a minefield. A tank crew just wouldn't see a mine if they were buttoned unless it was hastly, surface laid on open ground where dirt or leaves could not be placed over it (e.g. a road). So just because one makes it through does not mean that all know that they are in a minefield and that they should follow in tracks for a certain distance.

quote:

8b. The penalty for multiple units resupplying is unrealistic. It assumes that only the crew of the ammo truck is humping bullets. In reality, most of the combat crew is humping the rounds for their unit so several units should be able to resupply from one truck with no penalties.

Agreed. Crews get out and hump it, not the ammo handlers. But SPWAW still beats the hell outa anything else around...

. [/B][/QUOTE] You got that right!! ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one.

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Post #: 2

- 5/27/2000 1:15:00 PM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

A couple comments (feel free to argue ;-) 1 is a bug. 1a This is pretty much assumed to be why they have any chance at all :-) 1b Three things can happen when infantry assaults a tank, 1. they fail their morale check and do nothing, 2. the tank successfully repulse the infantry before they start(leaving them a suppressed mess) or 3. the assault is attempted and sometimes works and sometimes fails (at which time the tank repulses them and the infantry ends up in a state similar to 2. 2. This is caused by the limited Ammo thing meesing with airplanes nastily. 3. Needs to be looked at I agreee, not sure its that bad though...won;t start the the CS debate again :-) 4. We look aat infantry casualties from a little more abstract viepoint in this game. Don't look on "casualties" as actual "dead bodies" but troopers rendered combat ineffective for the 1-2 hour time period the game typically represents. A casualty may still be running around with his unit, but is too dazed and confused to be effective. This is as much in my mind (other development team members may disagree and turninf toughness up a lot :-) a representation of combat power friction as actual wounds being caused. Most oral histories I've read talk about a few men being the "core" of a squad. What happens in the game is the "others" tend to get their combat effectiveness eroded fairly quickly, leaving you with a slowly decreasing combat effectiveness, until at between 30 and 40 percent combat effectiveness remaining, the unit has a tendency to collapses and "surrenders or disperse". SOmetimes teh Squad hangs on with only a single man "combat effective", but doesn't mean he is physically alone amid the corpses of his busddies, they may will be cheering him on as try to crawl further inside their helmets... 5. Good answer, Larry, Good answer :-) 6. We are going to need to start an artillery thread becasue there are a lot of subtleites there. Its not perfect, but when you dig into it its got its moments :-) We haven't explained them very well unfortunately. Bottom line is spotted artillery is MUCH better then unspotted artellery (but a 52 is NOT a very good arty spotter. 6a Geneerally agree but again there are some abstractions here we need to explain better...(or share our rationalizations of ;-) 6b - this will tend to run hot and cold, if they catch you, its NASTY, but many times they don't. A string of bad luck over a handful of games can really color ones oopinion one way of another :-) 6c Being addressed... 6d answered in another thread I think...bottom line is they are not necessarily yours 100% of the time. 7. Again I'm with Larry. 8. Tend to agree :-) 8b. This may be may personal bias having spent some time trying to get stuff unloaded from trucks:-) I don't know about WWII trucks, but its tough to get more than 4 or5 guys in the truck handing stuff out, a certain d(stuff)/dt. More guys outside the truck make teh lines longer and speed the time and lowers the effort to get the stuff where its going! I may be out to lunch, (we were NAVY squids trying to unload trucks :-) but to my expereince you can't just pile 30 guys into the truck and get things out faster! you ahve a d(stuff)/dt limit that is independant of how many guys are standing around waiting for the next round to be handed to them! So have at me :-0

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Post #: 3

- 5/27/2000 8:49:00 PM

Spunkgibbon

Posts: 69
Joined: 5/8/2000
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Dean Robb: However, even if an aircraft it hit, it should return unless it's severely damaged. A bullet hole in the fuselage isn't going to ground a plane; a whole bunch of them will.

That reminds me about something about Hurricanes that I saw on TV. Because they were cheaply made wood and canvas planes they could be repaired from any airfield in a matter of minutes. There was a bit of footage showing a Hurricane that had a massive hole in the fuselage (a good two or three feet across, how it could still fly is amazing in itself). The ground crew rolled out a load of canvas (it was decorated, it looked like a load of tablecloth canvas or something), wrapped it around the hole, applied a bit of lacquer and the plane was up and fighting again all in the space of ten minutes. Apparantly it even managed to rejoin the rest of it's squadron before their next engagement. Bit of an unsung hero, the Hurricane and all because it wasn't as pretty as the Spitfire.

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Post #: 4

- 5/29/2000 10:03:00 AM

Dean Robb

Posts: 204
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Va Beach, VA USA
Status: offline

quote:

5. Smoke disapates too quickly. It appears that smoke counts the turn it's popped as one of it's persistance turns. This means, for example, that popping the smoke dischargers on a tank in turn 5 is useless because the smoke is disappated by turn 6. At the least, the smoke should be good for the turn immediately following the one in which it's popped.

quote:

Disagree, smoke canisters on tanks are meant to break the enemy's LOS while you maneuver away from dangerous fires.

And that's the point. Because this is a UGO/IGO sim and not real time, it's altogether too common to find yourself in trouble with no movement points left. IRL, you'd pop your smoke and reverse. In SPW@W, if you're lucky you can pop the smoke, but you have to wait until next turn to run away - and next turn the smoke is gone.

quote:

I've not seen any CB fire yet? Do I have to do something other than just not fire my arty?

Make sure your message delay is set long enough to read the message. It's just a quick pop up that "[arty unit] takes x hits" The c/b happens automagically.

quote:

Really! I asked the same question in another thread.

I've had artillery "out of contact" for the *entire* scenario....

quote:

prevents them from maneuvering. No tank commander would have his units do this unless he knew the limits of a minefield.

The point here is that you KNOW mines are present because you've detonated them elsewhere. Naturally, if you leave the already-traversed hex you're fair game again.

quote:

So just because one makes it through does not mean that all know that they are in a minefield and that they should follow in tracks for a certain distance.

RADIO. Hand signals. There has to be a balance between game constraints and reality. The turn limits force you to take chances that you otherwise wouldn't...like go traipsing through hexes when you know mines are present in the scenario without engineers leading. IMO, the current mine paradigm is too 'gamey' and unfair to the player. Either the mines are there and attack you or they aren't. The current system completely eliminates the "Polish minesweeper" that often is our only mine detection option.

quote:

unit so several units should be able to resupply from one truck with no penalties.

quote:

Agreed. Crews get out and hump it, not the ammo handlers.

I know many times I WISHED I could get the ammo drivers to hump my projos....

[This message has been edited by Dean Robb (edited 05-28-2000).]

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Post #: 5

- 5/29/2000 10:48:00 AM

Dean Robb

Posts: 204
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Va Beach, VA USA
Status: offline

1b Three things can happen when infantry assaults a tank, 1. they fail their morale check and do nothing, 2. the tank successfully repulse the infantry before they start(leaving them a suppressed mess) or 3. the assault is attempted and sometimes works and sometimes fails (at which time the tank repulses them and the infantry ends up in a state similar to 2. I'm assuming that 3 is why a unit will be ordered to assault, do absolutely nothing, and add 30 points of suppression? disperse". SOmetimes teh Squad hangs on with only a single man "combat effective", but doesn't mean he is physically alone amid the corpses of his busddies, they may will be cheering him on as try to crawl further inside their helmets... Well, then some Armies seem to be composed of a very large percentage of Sgt Rocks. Mayhap this needs to be looked at...IMO, there are entirely too many Audie Murphys running around. Let 'em rally fast between turns, but don't have them standing in the open getting their butts shot off without it bothering them. And the current "toughness" seriously skews artillery/mortar usefullness. 5. Good answer, Larry, Good answer :-) But not, I'd submit, a good GAMING answer. Take a look at my reply to him. In an RTS, this would be fine. But in an IGO/UGO, it makes the dischargers nearly useless. Even popping them takes away movement points... 6. We are going to need to start an artillery thread becasue there are a lot of subtleites there. Its not perfect, but when you dig into it its got its moments :-) We haven't explained them very well unfortunately. Bottom line is spotted artillery is MUCH better then unspotted artellery (but a 52 is NOT a very good arty spotter. Comparatively speaking, it doesn't seem bad. Agreed that on a scale of 100, it's only 1/2; but when you've got FOs running around with scores of 65-75 it's not exactly horrible...and a Recon unit should be able to spot for arty. The point was, though, that this spotter at least knew what a grid coord was...and STILL in four battery salvoes not a single round hit on target. I've never liked (as a former Redleg) the artillery system in SP; most especially the scatter. It makes the assumption that artillery is very inaccurate and that spotting is some arcane art. It's not; and IRL you'd utilize (normally) spotting rounds that the spotter can walk onto target before firing for effect. That won't work in a game like this, obviously, but we can *ASSUME* that anyone capable of calling in arty is usually able to say "left 50 yards" and have pretty accurate fires. 6b - this will tend to run hot and cold, if they catch you, its NASTY, but many times they don't. A string of bad luck over a handful of games can really color ones oopinion one way of another :-) What I don't like is that the game engine doesn't allow you to save your shots. With a limited, un-resupplied number of arty rounds you really need to save a few shots for the later stages of the game. The automatic, heavy, c/b uses those shots up...leaving you out of artillery by turn 10 or so. Maybe a flag allowing you to designate batteries for c/b or a dialogue option to fire c/b each turn? Or serious resupply for off-board artillery? 6d answered in another thread I think...bottom line is they are not necessarily yours 100% of the time. Mmmm...not sure I like this. I'd think that (since I'm playing this scenario) priority of fires could be assumed. Maybe the percentages just need to be tweaked down...I played one scenario where I only had one battery and it was never in contact. When you work hard to get a spotter in position and then NEVER have the artillery available; and have no notice that you've lost your support; it gets pretty aggravating. Again, in an RTS this could work...in a turn-based game it's a real penalty on the player. If (as has happened) I have two pages of artillery and can't use 2/3 of them - EVER - then one has to wonder "why do I have them at all"? 7. Again I'm with Larry. I wouldn't have a problem with mines if the turn limits didn't force you to take risks in a mine environment that you wouldn't take in real life. Since there are artificially imposed limits on your tactics, it seems unfair and gamey to handle mines this way. IRL (or if the turn limits didn't exist), I'd go nice and slow and have the infantry probing for the mines - at least until I'd penetrated the main defensive belt. From the defender's standpoint, the fact that the mines may or may not affect the attacker seriously hurts their usefulness. Part of the purpose in minefields is to channel the attacker into your kill zones and/or slow him down. If the mines don't go off, the attacker doesn't know they're there and doesn't get channelled/slowed. Additionally, it's entire possible (and has happened to me) that the attacker passes enough units before the mines attack that they may as well not have been there. 8b. This may be may personal bias having spent some time trying to get stuff unloaded from trucks:-) ... you ahve a d(stuff)/dt limit that is independant of how many guys are standing around waiting for the next round to be handed to them! I understand the argument, but IRL, when you set up the resupply point you'll start offloading stuff. So when the combat units pull in, at least some of their ammo is stacked in piles for them to snatch and the handlers are replenishing the piles - for exactly the reason you pointed out. Also, I rarely have more than one or two units resupplying at one time...not enough to overwork the Teamsters. Again...we have to look at Real Life(tm) vs Game. The current resupply paradigm is so time-consuming that the player is penalized for using it given the turn limits.

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Post #: 6

- 5/29/2000 10:58:00 AM

Dean Robb

Posts: 204
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Va Beach, VA USA
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Dean Robb: [QUOTE]1b Three things can happen when infantry assaults a tank, 1. they fail their morale check and do nothing, 2. the tank successfully repulse the infantry before they start(leaving them a suppressed mess) or 3. the assault is attempted and sometimes works and sometimes fails (at which time the tank repulses them and the infantry ends up in a state similar to 2.

I'm assuming that 3 is why a unit will be ordered to assault, do absolutely nothing, and add 30 points of suppression?

quote:

disperse". SOmetimes teh Squad hangs on with only a single man "combat effective", but doesn't mean he is physically alone amid the corpses of his busddies, they may will be cheering him on as try to crawl further inside their helmets...

Well, then some Armies seem to be composed of a very large percentage of Sgt Rocks. Mayhap this needs to be looked at...IMO, there are entirely too many Audie Murphys running around. Let 'em rally fast between turns, but don't have them standing in the open getting their butts shot off without it bothering them. And the current "toughness" seriously skews artillery/mortar usefullness.

quote:

5. Good answer, Larry, Good answer :-)

But not, I'd submit, a good GAMING answer. Take a look at my reply to him. In an RTS, this would be fine. But in an IGO/UGO, it makes the dischargers nearly useless. Even popping them takes away movement points...

quote:

6. We are going to need to start an artillery thread becasue there are a lot of subtleites there. Its not perfect, but when you dig into it its got its moments :-) We haven't explained them very well unfortunately. Bottom line is spotted artillery is MUCH better then unspotted artellery (but a 52 is NOT a very good arty spotter.

Comparatively speaking, it doesn't seem bad. Agreed that on a scale of 100, it's only 1/2; but when you've got FOs running around with scores of 65-75 it's not exactly horrible...and a Recon unit should be able to spot for arty. The point was, though, that this spotter at least knew what a grid coord was...and STILL in four battery salvoes not a single round hit on target. I've never liked (as a former Redleg) the artillery system in SP; most especially the scatter. It makes the assumption that artillery is very inaccurate and that spotting is some arcane art. It's not; and IRL you'd utilize (normally) spotting rounds that the spotter can walk onto target before firing for effect. That won't work in a game like this, obviously, but we can *ASSUME* that anyone capable of calling in arty is usually able to say "left 50 yards" and have pretty accurate fires.

quote:

6b - this will tend to run hot and cold, if they catch you, its NASTY, but many times they don't. A string of bad luck over a handful of games can really color ones oopinion one way of another :-)

What I don't like is that the game engine doesn't allow you to save your shots. With a limited, un-resupplied number of arty rounds you really need to save a few shots for the later stages of the game. The automatic, heavy, c/b uses those shots up...leaving you out of artillery by turn 10 or so. Maybe a flag allowing you to designate batteries for c/b or a dialogue option to fire c/b each turn? Or serious resupply for off-board artillery?

quote:

6d answered in another thread I think...bottom line is they are not necessarily yours 100% of the time.

Mmmm...not sure I like this. I'd think that (since I'm playing this scenario) priority of fires could be assumed. Maybe the percentages just need to be tweaked down...I played one scenario where I only had one battery and it was never in contact. When you work hard to get a spotter in position and then NEVER have the artillery available; and have no notice that you've lost your support; it gets pretty aggravating. Again, in an RTS this could work...in a turn-based game it's a real penalty on the player. If (as has happened) I have two pages of artillery and can't use 2/3 of them - EVER - then one has to wonder "why do I have them at all"?

quote:

7. Again I'm with Larry.

I wouldn't have a problem with mines if the turn limits didn't force you to take risks in a mine environment that you wouldn't take in real life. Since there are artificially imposed limits on your tactics, it seems unfair and gamey to handle mines this way. IRL (or if the turn limits didn't exist), I'd go nice and slow and have the infantry probing for the mines - at least until I'd penetrated the main defensive belt. From the defender's standpoint, the fact that the mines may or may not affect the attacker seriously hurts their usefulness. Part of the purpose in minefields is to channel the attacker into your kill zones and/or slow him down. If the mines don't go off, the attacker doesn't know they're there and doesn't get channelled/slowed. Additionally, it's entire possible (and has happened to me) that the attacker passes enough units before the mines attack that they may as well not have been there.

quote:

8b. This may be may personal bias having spent some time trying to get stuff unloaded from trucks:-) ... you ahve a d(stuff)/dt limit that is independant of how many guys are standing around waiting for the next round to be handed to them!

I understand the argument, but IRL, when you set up the resupply point you'll start offloading stuff. So when the combat units pull in, at least some of their ammo is stacked in piles for them to snatch and the handlers are replenishing the piles - for exactly the reason you pointed out. Also, I rarely have more than one or two units resupplying at one time...not enough to overwork the Teamsters. Again...we have to look at Real Life(tm) vs Game. The current resupply paradigm is so time-consuming that the player is penalized for using it given the turn limits.

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Post #: 7

- 5/29/2000 11:05:00 PM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

quote:

I'm assuming that 3 is why a unit will be ordered to assault, do absolutely nothing, and add 30 points of suppression?

Actually its number 2 where they get beaten off before they have a chance to attack. This will tend to happen more often to inexperienced units.

quote:

Well, then some Armies seem to be composed of a very large percentage of Sgt Rocks. Mayhap this needs to be looked at...IMO, there are entirely too many Audie Murphys running around. Let 'em rally fast between turns, but don't have them standing in the open getting their butts shot off without it bothering them. And the current "toughness" seriously skews artillery/mortar usefullness.

If they are experience 80 or above then they DO have a lot "SGT Rocks". Also Open ground is assumed to have stumps and folds and other detail in it that can provide cover to units "good" enough to use it. Try a test with several MGs on a small hill and have two plts of infantry advance over maybe 500 yards of open gorund to attack them. Try it once with the MGs having about 65 exp and the attackers 85, then switch. I think what you are seeing are effects of a disparity in experience. This is an area there will always be disagreements on. Infantry gone to ground is very hard to root out without a lot of firepower, infantry moving in the open are Very vulnerable. I've seen squads taken out in 3 burts of MG fire. Give it some time and experiment, and the bottom line is you can adjust infantry toughness and rout/rally if need be.

quote:

But not, I'd submit, a good GAMING answer. Take a look at my reply to him. In an RTS, this would be fine. But in an IGO/UGO, it makes the dischargers nearly useless. Even popping them takes away movement points...

I disagree, smoke is an obscurrant, not a portable wall. SMoke discharges DO NOT cost you movement points and you can fire smoke rounds even if you are otherwise "out of shots". SMoke dischargers alow you to affect 150yards of area! The time it takes to disapate is random, so you are not sure how effective it will be. It works the best if you ppoop it at the start of your turn or during your turn and move to cover behind it. Once the enemy has spotted you and started firing, it will infact be of marginal effectiveness unless you use it to break contact (ie run away:-)

quote:

Comparatively speaking, it doesn't seem bad. Agreed that on a scale of 100, it's only 1/2; but when you've got FOs running around with scores of 65-75 it's not exactly horrible...and a Recon unit should be able to spot for arty. The point was, though, that this spotter at least knew what a grid coord was...and STILL in four battery salvoes not a single round hit on target.

I think you are attributing current artillery capabilities to WW2 artillery that was simply less capable. John Salt (his web page escapes me - anybody know where it is?) compiled summeries of UK war office meemos from the war. One on artillery accuracy :

quote:

WO 291/1321 The accuracy of predicted fire. excerpts... "It is pointed out that with this probable error, concentration of all guns (pwv refering to a regiment) would give a spread of 80% of the shot over a frontage of 200 yards at 12,000 yards range and that this would be adequate for targets located with an accuracy of Z or A. It is, therefore, recommended that such targets should be engaged with guns concentrated, as is already done by some units." "It is considered that distribution in depth is so largely governed by the variation in ammunition lots that no analysis is possible. A rough average seems to be that 80% will be distributed not far from uniformly over a zone of 200 yds." "It is estimated that broadly speaking an A.G.R.A. firing at 12,000 yds with all guns concentrated will deliver about 2/3rds of the shot not very far from uniformly into an area 200 yds by 200 yds, the remainder being scattered rather thinly beyond these limits." [QUOTE] Offboard artillery generally fires a "sheaf-like pattern" while onboard artliiery attemts to concentrate on a hex. Our four hex pattern typically corresponds approximately to the above accuracy constraints - 2/3 within 100 yards of the aimpoint. [QUOTE]What I don't like is that the game engine doesn't allow you to save your shots. With a limited, un-resupplied number of arty rounds you really need to save a few shots for the later stages of the game. The automatic, heavy, c/b uses those shots up...leaving you out of artillery by turn 10 or so. Maybe a flag allowing you to designate batteries for c/b or a dialogue option to fire c/b each turn? Or serious resupply for off-board artillery?

LIke I said. many changes need to be made to improve artillery, thisis the way it was in SP2 and we essentially doubled the ammo in Offboard arty to compensate. But this is in keeping with a lack of 100% control by the player.

quote:

Mmmm...not sure I like this. I'd think that (since I'm playing this scenario) priority of fires could be assumed. Maybe the percentages just need to be tweaked down...I played one scenario where I only had one battery and it was never in contact. When you work hard to get a spotter in position and then NEVER have the artillery available; and have no notice that you've lost your support; it gets pretty aggravating. Again, in an RTS this could work...in a turn-based game it's a real penalty on the player. If (as has happened) I have two pages of artillery and can't use 2/3 of them - EVER - then one has to wonder "why do I have them at all"?

While the "dead periods" may be too great and the cost too high, given the effectiveness, artillery support could not be "taken for granted". Country doctrine varied, but the idea that supporting artillery, even when dedicated solely to a unit, was a complicated thing to coordinate is far from something for an RTS!. How many times have have commanders bemoaned in their memoirs that the artillery fired too soon, or not at all! Then you have the problem of the player having situational awareness that make teh "digitized battlefield" of Army XXI look pale in comparison! The player has the ability to target what artillery is avialble with such precisionn and timeliness (rarely mor than 3 turns which is at most some 6-10 minutes) that it would have power all out of historic proprtion. We have tried to balance historical cabilities and overall effectiveness. Freely admit we aren't there yet, but feel the direction its headed is an improvement! AS for mines, like other engineering, breaching a serious breaching evolution is beyond the scope of the game. the turn limits issue is one to take up with scenario designers :-) THey typically try to give the flavor of a situation, but the time it takes to perform combat engineering tasks just don't fit well in the time span reflected in typical 30 turn games (1-2 hours). Ammo dumps represent these "prestaged" resupply areas and do resupply much faster than Ammo trucks. Given that an Ammo truck holds an infinate amount of EVERYTHING. It was a concsious decision to limit their usefullness so players have to have a fair number (typical resupply convoys for a Btn for 12 -16 trucks) and can't use them to have "infinite ammo" for onboard artillery. The time constraints of Ammo trucks are a scenario design issue, they are not meant to be "effective" in 30 turn games. I frankly think trying to track individual rounds and explicitly model resupply is a bit to far in teh weeds...I would have liked to see an "ammo state system" that was more abstract since above teh indivdual tank level nobody was privy to how many rounds beyond "I'm still good" or "getting low" a given tank had...

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Post #: 8

- 5/30/2000 9:26:00 PM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
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From: Atlanta, GA 30068
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quote:

Originally posted by Dean Robb: From the defender's standpoint, the fact that the mines may or may not affect the attacker seriously hurts their usefulness. Part of the purpose in minefields is to channel the attacker into your kill zones and/or slow him down. If the mines don't go off, the attacker doesn't know they're there and doesn't get channelled/slowed. Additionally, it's entire possible (and has happened to me) that the attacker passes enough units before the mines attack that they may as well not have been there.

I see you understand the purpose of obstacles, not a wall but part of an integrated defense. Obstacles should be covered by observation and fire, except for nuisance obstacles meant to delay attackers and gain time for a defense. Are you making your mine fields dense enough to cause the attacker to slow/cannalize? I'm not sure how many mines and what AT/AP mix each mine point represents but IRL there are different densities used. In the game, I ususally put 2 mine points per hex and almost all units are hit by the mine (but not all). ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one.

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Post #: 9

- 5/30/2000 10:34:00 PM

Von Rom

Posts: 1705
Joined: 5/12/2000
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Excellent comments and insights by everyone. With regard to morale: Here are a couple of examples from WWII: 1) 1,800 Allied planes attacked a German position comprising 2,200 soldiers. After this murderous and earth-shaking bombing had ended, only 30% of these soldiers were combat effective (the other 70% had either been killed, deserted, or been driven insane). Yet this remaining 30%, along with a handful of tanks repulsed a determined Allied attack to take their position! Imagine trying to believe this happening in the game. 2) A single Tiger tank (Wittmann) taking on, and defeating two dozen Allied armoured units! 3) A single Stuka pilot that knocked out 500 enemy vehicles (over the course of the war). 4) The Japanese (against all odds) often fighting fiercely to the last man and bullet (and even then committing suicide rather than surrendering). 5) The endless examples on the Russian front. 6) Rommel's ragtag Afrika Korps fighting (usually winning or at least holding out) against usually overwhelming odds. Many of the above examples show things THAT should NOT happen in a war. But in real life they do. I for one get frustrated in a wargame when I hammer away at an enemy unit - but it will not die or run away - during those times in the game I have to be reminded of the above examples from real life. ------------------ A King Tiger can give you a definite edge...

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Post #: 10

- 5/31/2000 11:01:00 AM

pauls

Posts: 5
Joined: 5/6/2000
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quote:

Originally posted by Dean Robb: Mmmm...not sure I like this. I'd think that (since I'm playing this scenario) priority of fires could be assumed. Maybe the percentages just need to be tweaked down...I played one scenario where I only had one battery and it was never in contact. When you work hard to get a spotter in position and then NEVER have the artillery available; and have no notice that you've lost your support; it gets pretty aggravating. Again, in an RTS this could work...in a turn-based game it's a real penalty on the player. If (as has happened) I have two pages of artillery and can't use 2/3 of them - EVER - then one has to wonder "why do I have them at all"?

Ah, so it is NOT a bug. I had the same thing happen (artillery out of contact the entire scenario) and just thought it was a bug of some sort. I now no longer select off board artillery and just use Mortars because of this problem. Paul

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Post #: 11

- 5/31/2000 8:58:00 PM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

Not a bug, but perhaps needs some adjustment, both access wise and points wise. Offboard artillery should not routinely not show up at all...

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Post #: 12

- 5/31/2000 11:46:00 PM

Charles22

Posts: 912
Joined: 5/17/2000
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Status: offline

One minor point which Dean robb made, that i would like to address, speaking only in terms of the game. Dean said, "From the defender's standpoint, the fact that the mines may or may not affect the attacker seriously hurts their usefulness. Part of the purpose in minefields is to channel the attacker into your kill zones and/or slow him down. If the mines don't go off, the attacker doesn't know they're there and doesn't get channelled/slowed. Additionally, it's entire possible (and has happened to me) that the attacker passes enough units before the mines attack that they may as well not have been there." I would object that the mines not going off before a lot of units (or less than a lot) cross those mines serves a very useful purpose instead as I've had this happen to me. Let's say you run some recon and infantry past th emines before the miens are discovered. At thid point it's a fight to the death for the units that have already crossed the minefield. If they do not hold their ground they run the risk of retreating over the minefield, and given that the player who thinks there was no minefield, suddenly finds there is one, has to make emergency adjustments to clear that minefield either in the form of very skilled fighting or hiding on the part of the units cut off, or by sending immediate help to clear that area. I tend to take the other approach, that you stand to mose more for a minefield being discovered late, than the other way around, though either way can be quite effective. The late discovered minefield is also WAY more effective with an enemy that has put up only token resistance and is awaiting deep penetration before launching a large counterattack. With a late discovered minefield, and a deep penetration counterattack against those units, such units are pretty much facing the prospect of being surrounded.

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Post #: 13

- 6/1/2000 12:01:00 AM

Larry Holt

Posts: 1969
Joined: 3/31/2000
From: Atlanta, GA 30068
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by Charles22: With a late discovered minefield, and a deep penetration counterattack against those units, such units are pretty much facing the prospect of being surrounded.

While this can not be counted on, the enemy may initially discover the minefield, its a tactic that is used IRL. The US planned to use scatterable minefields between the echelons of attacking Soviet forces to isolate them and allow defeat in detail. It works very well at the National Training Centers and can be used to good advantage if it occurs in the game. If some attacking forces are isolated on the defneding side of a minefield you can fire smoke to further isolate them from supporting fires. If you hear the mines being cleared (get messages to that effect), drop some HE on them to sweep away any engineer/infantry clearing them. While we are talking mines, remember that if you build an obstacle so tough that the enemy can't get in, how will you get out? I usually leave some gaps in the minefield for counterattack purposes. I put some mines ahead and/or behind of the gap so I can zig-zag through the lanes while an attacker can't see the lane and will blunder into the other mines. ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one.

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Post #: 14

- 6/1/2000 4:50:00 AM

victorhauser

Posts: 318
Joined: 5/29/2000
From: austin, texas
Status: offline

Regarding Roads and Rice Paddies... I'm playing a long campaign US vs. Japan. There seems to be a bug when the computer generates campaign battle terrain in the South Pacific. I'm not sure if this has already been noted, but even though I can see unpaved roads running through rice paddies, they are not there as far as the game is concerned.

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Post #: 15

- 6/3/2000 1:41:00 AM

Dean Robb

Posts: 204
Joined: 5/25/2000
From: Va Beach, VA USA
Status: offline

quote:

I think what you are seeing are effects of a disparity in experience.

It could be. In other scenarios I've played since then, things seem to be a bit more realistic. Maybe what was causing my frustration was the Russian "auto-rally on the fly". All I know is that I'd kill 10 of 12 Russkis, they'd be "pinned", and those last two would engage my units during OF. They just never broke and ran!

quote:

[RE: SMOKE]Once the enemy has spotted you and started firing, it will infact be of marginal effectiveness unless you use it to break contact (ie run away:-)

Well, that is the EXACT situation I'm talking about. You're tooling along in your Mighty Sherman. Suddenly you notice that there are a lot of Panthers up ahead so you stop and pop but don't have enough movement points to retrograde this turn. Next turn, your smoke is gone and you're toast. I'm suggesting that the smoke should last at least ONE full turn to give you that chance to run away.

quote:

I think you are attributing current artillery capabilities to WW2 artillery that was simply less capable. ...Offboard artillery generally fires a "sheaf-like pattern" while onboard artliiery attemts to concentrate on a hex. Our four hex pattern typically corresponds approximately to the above accuracy constraints - 2/3 within 100 yards of the aimpoint.

Then something is wrong with this picture. For example, the German 150mm off-board batteries have (for me so far) invariably fired in a north/south LINE and have yet to put a round in the target hex. Maybe it's something weird with them...I dunno. I'd be interested to know what precision A to Z means. It *looks* as if it backs up my point that unspotted fire will fall accurately in the wrong place instead of scattered as the game engine currently does.

quote:

While the "dead periods" may be too great and the cost too high, given the effectiveness, artillery support could not be "taken for granted". Country doctrine varied, but the idea that supporting artillery, even when dedicated solely to a unit, was a complicated thing to coordinate is far from something for an RTS!...out of historic proprtion. We have tried to balance historical cabilities and overall effectiveness. Freely admit we aren't there yet, but feel the direction its headed is an improvement!

Agreed that the direction is good

. But the issue still is (and you touched on it in a later reply) that far too much of your artillery simply isn't EVER available to you. It may be realistic, but it detracts (IMO) from the gaming experience. Complicated to coordinate or not, it's just not fair to the gamer to see a huge list of continuously unavailable arty. The SA issue doesn't come into play here...I'm talking about being able to use the arty assigned. Yes, the SA is higher than a WWII CO can have...SP wouldn't be fun otherwise

quote:

As for mines, like other engineering, breaching a serious breaching evolution is beyond the scope of the game. the turn limits issue is one to take up with scenario designers :-) THey typically try to give the flavor of a situation, but the time ittakes to perform combat engineering tasks just don't fit well in the time span reflected in typical 30 turn games (1-2 hours).

Concurrance is. And my point is that the current "may or may not attack" takes mines beyond the scope of the game. It creates a NEED for serious engineer work because you don't know about the minefields until they go off. Just setting them back to "enter the hex and go boom!" brings them back to what they should be in the scope of SP.

quote:

The time constraints of Ammo trucks are a scenario design issue, they are not meant to be "effective" in 30 turn games.

Ah...there's the rub! I'm all in favor of the "no infinite arty rounds". Don't like it 'cause I always seem to run out when I need them most

but it IS realistic - you can shoot 'em off faster than you can load 'em up. Do multiple trucks speed up the process? And with the realistic ammo loadout (ie: not full) option, I REALLY think that ammo trucks need to reload faster. Not lightspeed, mind you...but certainly faster than they currently do.

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Post #: 16

- 6/3/2000 11:29:00 PM

Paul Vebber

Posts: 11430
Joined: 3/29/2000
From: Portsmouth RI
Status: offline

Appreciate your POV on these issues Dean. We'll see what we can do :-) Its fine balance between being "historical" and being fun and we may need some more balance in some areas for the 2nd patch. Keep playing and keep letting us know what you think. Just becasue I have a certina opinion doesn't mean its a majority one or can't be changed :-)

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Post #: 17

- 6/4/2000 12:11:00 AM

victorhauser

Posts: 318
Joined: 5/29/2000
From: austin, texas
Status: offline

Regarding Artillery... If a player pays core points for off-board artillery, then that player should be getting that artillery support almost always. I've always assumed that if I "buy" artillery support with support points (instead of core points) then I'm getting the equivalent of "priority support" from the boys at Higher Headquarters who I'm assuming I talked with prior to the battle. After all, isn't the battle I'm fighting the most important one in the sector at the time (why else would it be taking up an SP:WaW battle slot)? As it stands now, I'm not (and others as well it seems) are simply not hassling with unreliable off-board artillery and buying on-board mortars instead.

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Post #: 18

- 6/4/2000 2:15:00 AM

sjuncal

Posts: 50
Joined: 5/21/2000
From: VA
Status: offline

quote:

Originally posted by victorhauser: As it stands now, I'm not (and others as well it seems) are simply not hassling with unreliable off-board artillery and buying on-board mortars instead.

I've had huge groups of arty 4 155mm batallions (or batteries whichever is the bigger and more costly) and 1 8 inch btn. unavailable for entire scenarios. The 8 inch guns alone are something like 1048 support points! (note that this was playing with the support bug that lets you keep support from battle to battle, I've since abandoned that campaigne as for obvious reasons it was no challenge). Some times selecting a different Forward Observer would make a couple grayed out guns available again... but not usually. Still with that much arty I found it decisive to say the least, when I could use it.

I find it interesting that even on map guns like 75mm pack howitzers and 105's will often be unavialable as well... IMHO they simply need to tone this aspect down... Provide for a few more of the larger on map guns, and make them available more often than not. It's one thing to use this abstraction to cover off map guns, but when you have 10 75mm field guns with 50 rounds of HE each sitting next to an ammo dump and ammo carriers, with no smoke in their hex (not having shot at a thing all scenario), with a full shot count available, but you can't use them anyway, it tends to look really arbitrary and interferes with immersion. - Simon [This message has been edited by sjuncal (edited 06-03-2000).] [This message has been edited by sjuncal (edited 06-03-2000).]

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Post #: 19

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Some things to look at...