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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Age of Muskets] >> Horse and Musket: Volume I, Frederick the Great >> For the love of Grognards

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For the love of Grognards - 5/13/2005 7:21:29 PM

malcolm_mccallum

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I look forward to this as much as the next guy but I read Matrix forums and despair.

Crown of Glory. Campaigns on the Danube. Empires in Arms. Black Powder Wars.

Is it not possible to take that next rational step and Matrix switch to modular games.

Give us the games that are all stand-alone but also linked.

I want A Grand Strategic Game that will allow me to either have the game resolve a combat in a zone normally or will let me load up my 'Campaigns' game and it will have the map and units instantly able to convert. After I play the Strategic campaign, I reload the results seamlessly into the Grand Strategic game and carry on without missing a beat.

While playing the campaign game, I come to a battle and can opt to let the game run it automatically as normal or I can load up my Grand Tactical gaem and all the appropriate scenario information will feed in and give me my battle. Afterwards it loads all the info back into the Strategic Game.

One day there may be a tactical sim (battalion level) for Napoleonics and that can also fit into the modular system. One day you can stick an economic module on there. Once its modularized, you'll be able to insert Naval games, new areas of the world and even new eras. Properly modularized, different variations on the modules can also be created so if some develoeprs have different visions on how to do Grand Tactical Battle game, either one can be used in this system.

If any company had the integrity, courage and vision to do this, it would be Matrix games.

And it wouldn't be restricted to Napoleonic. WWII is another era that NEEDS this sort of modularized/linked approach to game development.

Final note, in my dream, the system also supports translating and outputting/inputting complete data for resolving aspects on tabletop.

Post #: 1

RE: For the love of Grognards - 5/13/2005 11:56:50 PM

Le Tondu

Posts: 564
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From: Seattle, WA
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May I point out once again that Matrix Games is nothing more than a collection of small companies.

What game that would interface with another game requires different (and small) companies getting together and making an agreement on many different things that involve things like programming language, profit sharing, labor sharing, etc........

Your wish is mine as well. BoN may end up being the closest with it's tactical approach that is slated to have a campaign level added on in the future. Then again, CoG's perspective comes from the Strategic level with a not so detailed tactical level.

What the heck, get both.

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RE: For the love of Grognards - 5/14/2005 4:57:43 AM

2gaulle

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From: Montreal
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quote:

Your wish is mine as well. BoN may end up being the closest with it's tactical approach that is slated to have a campaign level added on in the future. Then again, CoG's perspective comes from the Strategic level with a not so detailed tactical level.

please, have some respect for historical works, unfortunatly, so far, there is all a world between BoN and CoG

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Post #: 3

RE: For the love of Grognards - 5/14/2005 6:13:53 PM

Le Tondu

Posts: 564
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From: Seattle, WA
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2gaulle,
I cannot tell exactly what you are talking about.

If you mean there are other games being worked on, sure, you are right. Histwar's Les Grognards looks the most promising as it is a First Person Commander Napoleonic game.

Others exist, C2, IG, and EiA are some. I just don't care for them. (Its my right not to care for them, you know.)

On second thought, I still don't know what you're talking about.

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Post #: 4

RE: For the love of Grognards - 7/16/2005 3:28:40 PM

9thlegere

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From: Scotland
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In some way you can link up two of these, although in a round about way.

I am certain I rad that EIA will allow you to imput the results of battles so you can fight it on the table top. THere seems no reason why you could not fight it on Black power wars then transfer the results to EIA for the stragtegic level.

Would take ages though!!

(in reply to Le Tondu)

Post #: 5

RE: For the love of Grognards - 7/18/2005 5:06:35 PM

Le Tondu

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9thlegere,

There is no need to do that because an operational level "Campaigns of Napoleon" is planned to co-exist with "Battles of Napoleon." The same people should be making both.

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RE: For the love of Grognards - 7/19/2005 4:17:59 AM

Tim Coakley

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Ah, the ideal game!

I would love to see BoN used to play out the battles from other games, but as it has been mentioned, Matrix is a publisher. The game designers would have to create an integrated system to do this.

If BoN does well (or at least breaks even), I will do a Campaign Game. My concept is somehing along the lines of Operational Art of War...with the option to execute battles in BoN.

Add in a good naval sim...and it is lots of fun.

Tim

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Post #: 7

RE: For the love of Grognards - 12/10/2005 2:13:17 PM

Khornish

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Although I am pumping life into an older thread, I did want to add my own comments to this.

I too want to see an integrated operational/tactical game. I want to be able to "be there" as Commander X and face similar problems in that I'd not have a "god's eye view" or would I be all-knowing.

Except, I'd need to have the option to become all-knowing and all-seeing if I wanted to.

However, to play the game with the blinders on, the developers would need to provide me with certain tools so that I could interperete the information I do have properly.

Let's face it, there's a lot of information and background that an army or corps commander of ca. 1805 would know from experience where today's gamer wouldn't have a clue regardless of experience.

To have a true operational game, the developers would have to anticipate the needs after identifying the discrepancies.

Additional desires, on my part, to see the interaction between the various types of units and their proper tasks on campaign cause me to have very high expectations from an operational game.

For example, I want to see a "proper" usage of light cavalry. So far, in all the games I've played light cavalry has been virtually ignored in it's main role of scouting and screening. There been no way to even attempt to duplicate what Murat accomplished at the outset of the Ulm campaign.

In order to pull myself back from another 2 hours of typing this post, I'll cut myself short here and leave you with a few parting thoughts.

I want to play Napoleonic campaigns (and fight out the resultant tactical battles) against one or more players via tcp/ip, pbem, and network.

I want to be able to attempt to screen my movement and composition of forces by assigning my light cavalry units to such duties.

I want to have freedom to manuever my forces over the campaign area, as opposed to doing so between two artificial barriers X# of hexes apart.

I want to play with a time scale that would fall more in line with an operational and tactical hybrid. Perhaps 1 operational turn = 6 hours and 1 tactical turn = 15/30 minutes.

I don't want to have to deal with the entire economy of my supporting industries. Just give me the numbers I can hope to expect with regards to reinforcements, replacements, ammunition, supplies, etc. And then make it realistic enough that a guarded supply route would deliver more of the stuff to me than an unguarded one.

I want to have to deal with the results of battle casualties to my sub-commanders. Meaning I want to be forced to deal with my Lannes dying at a time that I really needed his help.

I want a realisitic social/political dynamic that requires me to make the hard decisions as to what my objectives will be for the campaign and what kinds of costs I will have to pay if I fail to achieve my objectives within certain measurable allotements of time. For example, Why wouldn't the Austrian player abandon Ulm and head East to link up with the Advancing Russians? What social/political costs would arise if the Austrian player made such a decision?

Okay.. I really have to stop myself, but I think you might get a picture of the type of game I want to play.

(in reply to Tim Coakley)

Post #: 8

RE: For the love of Grognards - 12/12/2005 3:24:19 AM

Rugens

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From: Hoosierland
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Just a couple of passing thoughts on monster projects such as mentioned.

While I agree it would be nice to have fully integrated modules that would work togather, I do not see them as being practical in the near term. Unfortunately wargames do not represent a vast market and as such lack the financial power to command such projects. Perhaps I am foolish but when I purchase a game these days I view it as my support of a particular section of the hobby. My purchase of a specifc game is an investment that hopefully will pay off in the future with further more developed titles. I guess what I am trying to say is that game development for our hobby necessarily needs to be a growth process. We must support the individuals (companys) that will reinvest our purchase dollars into further developed products in the future. This is difficult enough to do on a single game (possible module), much less the standardization/coordination of designing things that will work togather.

My belief is that BON is that kind of project which is why I want to support it. Years back, before computers, we used to run campaigns and fought the battles out using miniatures. To date no Napoleonic computer game has even allowed us to easily do that. The "Napoleon In Russia" project got kind of close but still was not really close. From what I have seen so far, BON will be a huge leap forward that will actually allow us to do what has been so elusive. Beyond that the flexibility to quantify unit differences and period specifics just makes my mouth water. It is probably inappropriate for me to comment on specifics but this is one old miniature wargamer that cannot wait for each new test release as the game grows.

Carl

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Post #: 9

RE: For the love of Grognards - 12/13/2005 8:04:15 PM

Tim Coakley

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I appreciate the vote of confidence in the game.

I would love to have a combined operational/tactical engine, but dropped that idea for an initial release. Good thing since the tactical is still in progress!

I have examined some other game engines that have some nice ideas for this...but that is far down the road.

Carl makes a good point about small design teams and our niche market.

Matrix will have to sell over 5000 copies for me to break even on this game. And that does not count the time and interest on my investment over 5 years.

It is very challenging to get games out the door...but it is coming.

Again, I appreciate your support.

Tim

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Post #: 10

RE: For the love of Grognards - 12/14/2005 1:28:53 AM

Khornish

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Oh I think BoN will be great and can't wait for it to be released. I remember playing it with a buddy of mine on his Apple ][e years ago.

Once the core game is done and after I've purchased my copy, I wouldn't mind at all purchasing an add-on a few months later that incorporated a couple more features and battles/maps.

My goal is to reward the powers that be with cash in return for their hard work at delivering a Napoleonic game that I will be enjoying for a long while.

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Post #: 11

RE: For the love of Grognards - 12/14/2005 5:00:18 PM

Le Tondu

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Sorry Khornish, this is a different BoN. The full name of this game is Black Powder Wars: Battles of Napoleon. It is not that older BoN. Many good things have been said about it.

Great expectations do abound about how good a game this one will be.

BTW, I'll be right there next to you in line when it is time to shell out the $$$$.

Cheers,
Rick

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Post #: 12

RE: For the love of Grognards - 12/14/2005 5:58:20 PM

sol_invictus

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The best thing about winning the lottery would be the ability to buy the entire first production run of games like this; or simply mailing a big check to the developer; and essentially bankrolling their effort. I am completely serious; my financial needs are more than satisfied; more so because I have very limited wants/desires than having loads of money; so if I ever did come up with alot of instant cash, I would have to find a worthy cause in which to put it to good use. Maybe one day. Most likely though, Doubleshot will have to be content with my paltry single purchase.

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RE: For the love of Grognards - 12/14/2005 6:55:50 PM

Khornish

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Le Tondu,

I am aware it's not the same game. However, they are close enough in operation to call them the same or at least very similar. I expect anyone familiar with the original game will consider them close enough to make the comparison valid.

This doesn't take away from BPW:BoN in any way, there's certainly no need to reinvent the wheel when it comes to designing and creating a tactical Napoleonic game that doesn't use 3D animations or an "axis&allies" like strategic level.

I'm just glad I didn't waste my $$$ on Imperial "piece of crap" Glory.

I'd not be surprised, though, once BPW:BoN is released, that we have various individuals within the design and programming community take a good hard look at cooperating on a larger integrated project.

Hell, I'd be happy to design the thing, but I don't have any resources in the industry anymore to do the actual coding and graphics/sound. Well, I do have one good programmer, but he won't work on anything but his own very successful game.

Even if the integrated game is unfeasible for anyone involved with Matrix currently, I'm sure that in the long term, this won't be true.

All I can do is purchase the games that deserve the reward and recommend it to my dwindling list of friends. At the very least my older sons can enjoy the games once we are able to purchase multiple copies of the game and third computer. Of course, I'll have to hold off crushing their armies until they are thoroughly hooked on the game.

< Message edited by Khornish -- 12/14/2005 7:07:46 PM >

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Post #: 14

RE: For the love of Grognards - 12/14/2005 7:08:29 PM

Le Tondu

Posts: 564
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From: Seattle, WA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arinvald

The best thing about winning the lottery would be the ability to buy the entire first production run of games like this; or simply mailing a big check to the developer; and essentially bankrolling their effort. I am completely serious; my financial needs are more than satisfied; more so because I have very limited wants/desires than having loads of money; so if I ever did come up with alot of instant cash, I would have to find a worthy cause in which to put it to good use. Maybe one day. Most likely though, Doubleshot will have to be content with my paltry single purchase.

Hope springs eternal. I'm with you.

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RE: For the love of Grognards - 12/15/2005 4:12:10 PM

Rugens

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From: Hoosierland
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There are quite a lot of similarities between the old BON and the BPW BON but I would liken it to the difference between a car from the 1920's vs 2000's. Tim would have to comment for sure but I think his love for the old BON and the fact that nobody since then has produced anything worth buying was his reason for doing the project. Personally, while I enjoyed the old BON, I had some real problems with it. My background is from miniatures. Since I started playing CLS (Column Line & Square) early on I really missed the flavor and and flow in BON that was offered by the miniatures. I don't think that will be a problem with the new BON. The artwork that has been completed so far is fantastic. Being a lover of unit origanizations, OB's and uniforms, as soon as I saw the first version of the editor, I was in love. We all play the games for different reasons. For me, aside from the mental challange it is being able to imerse myself in the flavor and feelings of the time. In those regards you will not recognize the old BON as this one has so much more. It's probably my old CLS roots but one of the things I've always wanted in a game about this time period is a system that can allow me to fight interesting small as well as large battles. To me a small rear guard action in the 1812 Russian Campaign can be just as interesting as the battle of Jena or Waterloo. I am anxious to try this out with one of the future test releases. From what I see I think the system will be able to do it. Will have to see.

(in reply to Le Tondu)

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