Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Get used to it - you can get odds of several THOUSAND to 1 without a surrender!

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ORIGINAL: pasternakski

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Get used to it - you can get odds of several THOUSAND to 1 without a surrender!

Unless you are Paris Hilton, in which case, you get several thousand surrenders.

I have always suspected that those responsible for this design got a glimmering from time to time that they were actually creating a game in which WWII in the Pacific would always be decided in about four weeks, so they panicked and built bullsh1t mechanics in various critical places that would slow things down a little.

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Besides, Grigsby's designs have always had some "WTF" in the combat routines.

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

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ORIGINAL: JeffK

I find that ground combat happens so rarely that a few odd results dont hurt.

Also it wouldnt be hard to find situations where a Division(-) held off a Corps for a day or so.

What you are expecting is that a battle which could last 3-4 days or more (How long did Gona-Buna, Imphal/Kohima or Milne Bay take? Okinawa didnt fall overnight) be resolved in 1 Combat.  You will find that the bigger battalions will win, but along the way they cop some lumps and you have to decide whether to perservere or give up.

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ORIGINAL: Sneer

this LCU bug/feature made me resigning from russian campaign - with big enough enemy stacks it can take even whole year or two to clear it 

quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

I know that "No Retreat, No Surrender" is a nifty slogan and all, but this is silly. I mean, c'mon, 47 to 1?!




NOTE: A turn later I had an 83 to 1....with similar results.

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

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ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

I know that "No Retreat, No Surrender" is a nifty slogan and all, but this is silly. I mean, c'mon, 47 to 1?!




NOTE: A turn later I had an 83 to 1....with similar results.

DO you have engineers there? Are the defenders behind forts? I think if the fort level is sufficient it can take a long time to finish off an enemy. I read this somewhere recently in a thread. Can someone verify that?

MY opponent has been forcing retreats and surrenders in China with odds as low as 2:1 or 3:1. He brought engineers and over the course of a couple of weeks worked the forts down to 0. After that the troops surrendered on the first attack over 2:1.

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ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i'm thinking these guys are out in the "boonies", so to speak. i've never seen a city/base defense like this, but it is typical for guys out in the hills/woods with no where to go. They resist attacks like this for weeks or even months.

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i'm thinking these guys are out in the "boonies", so to speak. i've never seen a city/base defense like this, but it is typical for guys out in the hills/woods with no where to go. They resist attacks like this for weeks or even months.

This is true, or even if they have lost control of the base, or never had it to begin with. I think the idea in that case is not to bother with them.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

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ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

i'm thinking these guys are out in the "boonies", so to speak. i've never seen a city/base defense like this, but it is typical for guys out in the hills/woods with no where to go. They resist attacks like this for weeks or even months.

This is true, or even if they have lost control of the base, or never had it to begin with. I think the idea in that case is not to bother with them.

Trusting soul... enemy hanging around can get into all kinds of mischief (at least, i try to get my guys to cause problems.)

Usually, though, they just up as training targets for my opponent's aircraft...

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

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ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo
After 10 turns at odds ranging from 12 -1 to 84-1 the buggers finally surrendered.

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ORIGINAL: dtravel
Somehow I suspect that in assuming he foresaw that far ahead you are giving Grigsby too much credit.

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ORIGINAL: pasternakski

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ORIGINAL: dtravel
Somehow I suspect that in assuming he foresaw that far ahead you are giving Grigsby too much credit.

Last time I credited Grigsby with designing UV/WitP, I was brushed off with the comment that Mike Wood was really responsible, so I speak more generally these days.

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

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ORIGINAL: dtravel
Mayhaps Mr. Wood built UV and WiTP upon the code the Grigsby wrote twenty years ago.

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ORIGINAL: pasternakski

I fired up Carrier Force on my C64 emulator the other day ... it's still a good game. You have to do all the things UV/WitP don't allow you to do, and you better do 'em right, or your planes wind up in the drink. Now, if you could expand this game to cover the entire Pacific theater in hourly turns...

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ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Actually, you can get around this - bomb the snot out of the units. Once they are out of supply, they begin surrendering. If they have supply and are out in the country (or at least not holding a base) you can attack them forever (it seems).

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ORIGINAL: esteban

The cause of this problem is that units that are in a non-base hex with no ability to retreat into supply will not surrender no matter how high you can jack up the odds against them.

I would handle it as I do, with a house rule that once you are able to execute a 4-1 or 5-1 odds attack against such units (which would cause them to surrender if this bug wasn't present) then the units are counted as "surrendered" and they are left where they are, cannot move (they should be eliminated), cannot attack and cannot be evacuated if they are on a coast hex.  This only happens if units are out of supply in the first place, so they will eventually starve to death anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban

The cause of this problem is that units that are in a non-base hex with no ability to retreat into supply will not surrender no matter how high you can jack up the odds against them.

I would handle it as I do, with a house rule that once you are able to execute a 4-1 or 5-1 odds attack against such units (which would cause them to surrender if this bug wasn't present) then the units are counted as "surrendered" and they are left where they are, cannot move (they should be eliminated), cannot attack and cannot be evacuated if they are on a coast hex.  This only happens if units are out of supply in the first place, so they will eventually starve to death anyway.

Hmmm - my thought is that this was a deliberate design decision, and made as an attempt to simulate gorilla forces that often would spring up in areas where major forces had been defeated - i.e. - Dutch in DEI, US and Philippine forces in the PI, etc.

Often, these forces would linger for years before being defeated (if they were defeated at all). Some defeated Dutch forces held out for about a year despite being in an area not particularly friendly to them (on Sumatra, iirc), while the US/PI forces held out in a "friendly" areas until The Return of The King, er, i mean Gen. MacArthur.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: esteban

The cause of this problem is that units that are in a non-base hex with no ability to retreat into supply will not surrender no matter how high you can jack up the odds against them.

I would handle it as I do, with a house rule that once you are able to execute a 4-1 or 5-1 odds attack against such units (which would cause them to surrender if this bug wasn't present) then the units are counted as "surrendered" and they are left where they are, cannot move (they should be eliminated), cannot attack and cannot be evacuated if they are on a coast hex.  This only happens if units are out of supply in the first place, so they will eventually starve to death anyway.

Hmmm - my thought is that this was a deliberate design decision, and made as an attempt to simulate gorilla forces that often would spring up in areas where major forces had been defeated - i.e. - Dutch in DEI, US and Philippine forces in the PI, etc.

Often, these forces would linger for years before being defeated (if they were defeated at all). Some defeated Dutch forces held out for about a year despite being in an area not particularly friendly to them (on Sumatra, iirc), while the US/PI forces held out in a "friendly" areas until The Return of The King, er, i mean Gen. MacArthur.

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I fired up Carrier Force on my C64 emulator the other day ... it's still a good game.

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This battle was two full strength IJA divisions, 18th and 2nd IIRC, against 2 halfstrength Indian divisions (one of which had recently retreated). As it turns out, these guys did not have a path of retreat. After 10 turns at odds ranging from 12 -1 to 84-1 the buggers finally surrendered.

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
Hmmm - my thought is that this was a deliberate design decision, and made as an attempt to simulate gorilla forces that often would spring up in areas where major forces had been defeated - i.e. - Dutch in DEI, US and Philippine forces in the PI, etc.

Often, these forces would linger for years before being defeated (if they were defeated at all). Some defeated Dutch forces held out for about a year despite being in an area not particularly friendly to them (on Sumatra, iirc), while the US/PI forces held out in a "friendly" areas until The Return of The King, er, i mean Gen. MacArthur.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso
Hmmm - my thought is that this was a deliberate design decision, and made as an attempt to simulate gorilla forces that often would spring up in areas where major forces had been defeated - i.e. - Dutch in DEI, US and Philippine forces in the PI, etc.

Often, these forces would linger for years before being defeated (if they were defeated at all). Some defeated Dutch forces held out for about a year despite being in an area not particularly friendly to them (on Sumatra, iirc), while the US/PI forces held out in a "friendly" areas until The Return of The King, er, i mean Gen. MacArthur.

FWIW that is the way I view it as well. As you say there were often cases where small groups held out in remote areas for months (i.e away from "bases").

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.