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Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 3:51:16 PM   
KDonovan


Posts: 1157
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline 		is it possible to create a Firestorm over Japanese Cities in this game?

i've been bombing a couple Japanese Manpower centers, which resulted in 1000+ fires.....but next turn they usually are snuffed out

is it possible to bomb to a point where the fire's are sustained for a period of time?.....and if so..... will the resulting firestorm gut the Industry centers in that city hex?

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RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 4:40:27 PM   
BLurking


Posts: 199
Joined: 3/24/2005
From: Frisco, TX
Status: offline 		I've done it in China using Sallies, so you should be able to do it in Japan.

Make sure:
Target is heavily reconned.
Airbase is large enough.
Aircraft not at extended range.
Daylight raids, 6000 ft.

Hit it often enough, and things will burn...

(in reply to KDonovan)
Post #: 2
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 4:42:57 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		Fire levels drop quickly.  If you build up enough fires, then you will destroy {as opposed to disable} some of the industry/resources in the hex. 

From what I know {which is very little}, not much is destroyed.  Other than maybe scoring strategic points, I am not sure you'd want to......if they are disabled and the Japanese player doesn't click no repairs, it sucks 1000 supply trying to repair things.

(in reply to KDonovan)
Post #: 3
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 4:53:30 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		Shhh dont tell PZB that its the cornerstone of my bombing campaign

(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 4
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 5:24:19 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		My buildings are built of asbestos (cough...cough...hack) so they don't burn.

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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 5
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 5:43:08 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		It's been a while since I tested this, but it's VERY hard to sustain fires. As I recall, it reduces fires TO 10% every 12 hours (so twice a day). I think it should be BY 10% each 12 hours, but that's not up to me. :^)

So if create a 1000 fires (which is really nothing much in game terms), by then end of the next turn (if you don't bomb again), the fires drop to:

1000 x .1 = 100 (AM)
100 x .1 = 10 (PM)

So if you stop for a day (or if the weather grounds you), the fires will go from 1000 to 10.

Frankly, if it were BY 10% (instead of TO 10%), you'd see something like:
1000 x .9 = 900 (AM)
900 x .9 = 810 (PM)

In that case, you could actually manage to incease fires over a period of time. But as it stands now, they go out -very- quickly (and the bigger the fire, the faster they go out)...

Currently, if you managed 20,000 fires (do-able with a lot of bombers)
20,000 x .1 = 2000 (AM)
2000 x .1 = 200 (PM).

Your 20,000 fires are down to 200 (nothing) by the next day.

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 6
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 7:08:53 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Can't-miss way to create a firestorm? Start a thread titled "Zero Bonus should be increased"

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Post #: 7
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 7:36:40 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Can't-miss way to create a firestorm? Start a thread titled "Zero Bonus should be increased"



_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to tsimmonds)
Post #: 8
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 9:28:15 PM   
KDonovan


Posts: 1157
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline
quote:

It's been a while since I tested this, but it's VERY hard to sustain fires. As I recall, it reduces fires TO 10% every 12 hours (so twice a day). I think it should be BY 10% each 12 hours, but that's not up to me. :^)

So if create a 1000 fires (which is really nothing much in game terms), by then end of the next turn (if you don't bomb again), the fires drop to:

1000 x .1 = 100 (AM)
100 x .1 = 10 (PM)

So if you stop for a day (or if the weather grounds you), the fires will go from 1000 to 10.

Frankly, if it were BY 10% (instead of TO 10%), you'd see something like:
1000 x .9 = 900 (AM)
900 x .9 = 810 (PM)

In that case, you could actually manage to incease fires over a period of time. But as it stands now, they go out -very- quickly (and the bigger the fire, the faster they go out)...

Currently, if you managed 20,000 fires (do-able with a lot of bombers)
20,000 x .1 = 2000 (AM)
2000 x .1 = 200 (PM).

Your 20,000 fires are down to 200 (nothing) by the next day.


doh!....thanks Feinder.......guess i'll just stick to precision bombing.....

speaking of which....wouldn't it be nice to target rail line bridges in this game....my oppenant is moving troops all around China...and i can't do a thing to stem to flow of men and material

_____________________________


(in reply to Feinder)
Post #: 9
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 9:44:52 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan
speaking of which....wouldn't it be nice to target rail line bridges in this game....my oppenant is moving troops all around China...and i can't do a thing to stem to flow of men and material

That's easy to fix....switch to CHS!

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to KDonovan)
Post #: 10
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 10:17:38 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

quote:

It's been a while since I tested this, but it's VERY hard to sustain fires. As I recall, it reduces fires TO 10% every 12 hours (so twice a day). I think it should be BY 10% each 12 hours, but that's not up to me. :^)

So if create a 1000 fires (which is really nothing much in game terms), by then end of the next turn (if you don't bomb again), the fires drop to:

1000 x .1 = 100 (AM)
100 x .1 = 10 (PM)

So if you stop for a day (or if the weather grounds you), the fires will go from 1000 to 10.

Frankly, if it were BY 10% (instead of TO 10%), you'd see something like:
1000 x .9 = 900 (AM)
900 x .9 = 810 (PM)

In that case, you could actually manage to incease fires over a period of time. But as it stands now, they go out -very- quickly (and the bigger the fire, the faster they go out)...

Currently, if you managed 20,000 fires (do-able with a lot of bombers)
20,000 x .1 = 2000 (AM)
2000 x .1 = 200 (PM).

Your 20,000 fires are down to 200 (nothing) by the next day.


doh!....thanks Feinder.......guess i'll just stick to precision bombing.....

speaking of which....wouldn't it be nice to target rail line bridges in this game....my oppenant is moving troops all around China...and i can't do a thing to stem to flow of men and material

Not to mention that you can't destroy industry (despite what the manual says). Mogami did tests a while back that showed that. All Fires will do is damage industry (and barely do so at that).

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to KDonovan)
Post #: 11
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 10:23:56 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline 		Wildcats suck! Zero's rule! Oh we're talking about strategic bombing....

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 12
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 10:27:19 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan



speaking of which....wouldn't it be nice to target rail line bridges in this game....my oppenant is moving troops all around China...and i can't do a thing to stem to flow of men and material



So does it really take two weeks to move by rail from Peking to Shanghai once your loaded on the train? How will you measure how destroyed the bridge really is? How will you account for ferry systems that would replace the rail bridge?

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to KDonovan)
Post #: 13
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 10:33:45 PM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan



speaking of which....wouldn't it be nice to target rail line bridges in this game....my oppenant is moving troops all around China...and i can't do a thing to stem to flow of men and material



So does it really take two weeks to move by rail from Peking to Shanghai once your loaded on the train? How will you measure how destroyed the bridge really is? How will you account for ferry systems that would replace the rail bridge?

Two days to load all the troops present and their equipment. Four days to round up all the jokers AWOL and get them on board. Two days for the train to go from Peking to Shangai. A day to march everyone off the train. Two days to get everyone organized and back in their proper sub-units. Another day to round up the jokers who went AWOL during the previous three days. And finally a day for the officers in charge to realize they got off at the wrong stop.



_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 14
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 10:39:33 PM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
Joined: 1/30/2005
From: Edgewater, MD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel


quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan



speaking of which....wouldn't it be nice to target rail line bridges in this game....my oppenant is moving troops all around China...and i can't do a thing to stem to flow of men and material



So does it really take two weeks to move by rail from Peking to Shanghai once your loaded on the train? How will you measure how destroyed the bridge really is? How will you account for ferry systems that would replace the rail bridge?

Two days to load all the troops present and their equipment. Four days to round up all the jokers AWOL and get them on board. Two days for the train to go from Peking to Shangai. A day to march everyone off the train. Two days to get everyone organized and back in their proper sub-units. Another day to round up the jokers who went AWOL during the previous three days. And finally a day for the officers in charge to realize they got off at the wrong stop.





Or you could add in a day to transfer from train to ferry and another day back onto the train...

_____________________________

Here's a link to:
Treespider's Grand Campaign of DBB

"It is not the critic who counts, .... The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena..." T. Roosevelt, Paris, 1910

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 15
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 11:23:17 PM   
Panther Bait


Posts: 654
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		When the Allies were firebombing Japan and Germany, how long did the firestorm actually burn?  Did the firestorms really continue for days?  I could see the already devastated areas smoldering/lightly burning for days, but not a true firestorm for that long.

Not that anyone would have any hope of putting them out, but I would think that a true firestorm would consume the available fuel in a any given area fairly rapidly.  In that case, they could only be sustained for long periods by moving around, and the fires would evenutually either spread so far out that the high winds could not be sustained or hit a large enough firebreak (natural or man-made) to stop it.

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When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

Nathan Dogan, USS Gurnard

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 16
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 11:27:45 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline
quote:

So does it really take two weeks to move by rail from Peking to Shanghai once your loaded on the train? How will you measure how destroyed the bridge really is? How will you account for ferry systems that would replace the rail bridge?


If a bomb falls on the bridge and no one is around, does it make sound?

-F-

_____________________________

"It is obvious that you have greatly over-estimated my regard for your opinion." - Me


(in reply to Panther Bait)
Post #: 17
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/8/2007 11:31:43 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		well the bigger factor to remember is that there were very few Firestorms to begin with....I can think of two off the top of my head (Dresden and Hamburg?)

no they didn't burn at super high intensity for weeks, the worst of them did burn for at least 48 hours IIRC...enough that followup raids the next day had trouble aiming for all th smoke

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Post #: 18
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/9/2007 1:35:20 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		IRL the buildings would be destroyed but the heavy equipment could be salvaged. This equates to HI being damaged vs totally destroyed.

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 19
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/9/2007 1:38:02 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		double post

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 20
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/9/2007 2:11:45 AM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel


quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan



speaking of which....wouldn't it be nice to target rail line bridges in this game....my oppenant is moving troops all around China...and i can't do a thing to stem to flow of men and material



So does it really take two weeks to move by rail from Peking to Shanghai once your loaded on the train? How will you measure how destroyed the bridge really is? How will you account for ferry systems that would replace the rail bridge?

Two days to load all the troops present and their equipment. Four days to round up all the jokers AWOL and get them on board. Two days for the train to go from Peking to Shangai. A day to march everyone off the train. Two days to get everyone organized and back in their proper sub-units. Another day to round up the jokers who went AWOL during the previous three days. And finally a day for the officers in charge to realize they got off at the wrong stop.



Without a movement cost to entrain and detrain, and a rail capacity limit, you can't think of this as rail transport. It is simply moving along a highway.

_____________________________

Fear the kitten!

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 21
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/9/2007 2:55:54 AM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline 		Tokyo was a firestorm as well. I've read that people jumped into a river only to be boiled as the water was boiled away.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 22
RE: Creating a Firestorm - 6/9/2007 5:04:23 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant


quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel


quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan



speaking of which....wouldn't it be nice to target rail line bridges in this game....my oppenant is moving troops all around China...and i can't do a thing to stem to flow of men and material



So does it really take two weeks to move by rail from Peking to Shanghai once your loaded on the train? How will you measure how destroyed the bridge really is? How will you account for ferry systems that would replace the rail bridge?

Two days to load all the troops present and their equipment. Four days to round up all the jokers AWOL and get them on board. Two days for the train to go from Peking to Shangai. A day to march everyone off the train. Two days to get everyone organized and back in their proper sub-units. Another day to round up the jokers who went AWOL during the previous three days. And finally a day for the officers in charge to realize they got off at the wrong stop.



Without a movement cost to entrain and detrain, and a rail capacity limit, you can't think of this as rail transport. It is simply moving along a highway.

<search&replace/train/trucks>

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to tsimmonds)
Post #: 23
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