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decisive CV combat - 6/22/2007 3:43:03 PM   
zhengxuacmilan

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		Under what conditions, or in what kind of oppotunity, you may decide to fight a decisive CV combat with your opponent?

Hi all. My question is actually to the allied players. How did you decide such a battle with huge risks?

In the history, some CV combats happened in 1942. Although my game is just begin (Jan 42), i hope some players can share their experiences. Yes this topic is complicated, I list some points I have considered:

1. Time: after May 1942, when zeros have no bonus.
2. ships: I think most japanese players may not divide the KB into more than 2 parts, so my plan aims the whole KB I think the allies should also concentrate their CVs for example 4CVs. Also British CVs? But it is also quite dangerous to "put all the eggs into only one basket".
3. place: It is better to fight in a place where my TFs can get Caps from the land-based air forces, and avoid that of the enemy.
4. Oppotunity? Luck? Weather? or something else?

Thank you for reading this thread, looking forward to your opinions.

Post #: 1
RE: decisive CV combat - 6/22/2007 4:14:04 PM   
AmiralLaurent

 

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From: Near Paris, France
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1) Time. Aside the Zero bonus, the fact that US CV will have all F4F-4 and Avenger is a great bonus. Also Aa upgrades and powerful AA escorts (fast BB, CLAA) will really help.

2) Engaging the whole Japanese CV/CVL/CVE fleet in 1942 is a very very risky business for the Allied player. On the other hand, if it is divied in two parts, the 5 US CV may engage them and trade enough blows to make it worth it.

3) You're right. Land-based air support will be usueful, but no so for LRCAP (land-based fighters are not good to cover ships at sea), but rather to let your LBA fight against the KB. Any Japanese AC lost or damaged in these initial battles will be one less to attack your ships, also fatigued Japanese pilots will be less efficient.

4) Other aspects

Weather: depending of your force ratio, weather will be important. If you are stronger (or think so) you will want a day with maximum air activity, and so go for clear weather. If you are weaker, then a day with bad weather will reduce air activity to maybe one phase only or none at all, but in any event will reduce the number of attacks on your ships and so the battle result may be only some damaged CV on each side, rather than sunk CV. But that is already a good result for the Allied in 1942.

Strategic location: having a big port in the area, possibly with AR, will be a plus to save your damaged ships. Also having base with 20k supplies will allow your air units to receive replacements, while KB can't do that (Japanese replacement pilots will have awful experience very early during the war).

Fuel situation: it's very important to have your CV and escort ships fuelled two days before the battle. So they won't spend op points refuelling at sea the day of the battle and may sail longer and fly more operations.

Other ships support: having surface Tfs with your CV may be very useful. In fact after a CV battle if you damage some Japanese CV sending CA and DD to try to achieve them the next night (with retire orders) may avenge your sunk CV. Also having many submarines around may help to chase Jap damaged ships.

Patrol capacity: the better detection level of enemy TF you have the better the battle will be, so try to concentrate patrol AC and bomber on naval search is a good idea.

(in reply to zhengxuacmilan)
Post #: 2
RE: decisive CV combat - 6/22/2007 4:53:41 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		AL has mostly got it covered. That "big" CV vs. CV battle is important, so it's -ALL- crucial. But being as it’s a slow day, I’ll blather on for little bit…


1. Most Allied players will run single-CV TFs, all set to follow one in the same hex. You get the "benefit" of stacked CAP, but your CVs are split up. When the battle comes, the TF or three that gets hit, is going to get hit hard, but your other CVs will be ok (altho their airgroups may be mauled). Also, you're going to get hit by coordination penalties (if you stack all your CVs in the same TF), so making separate TFs will increase the chance that your bombers will be escorted (because each CV is launchign it's own strike - albeit smaller). Also more TFs, mean more ships to put up more flak, and more ships to draw enemy bombs away from your CVs.

2. There used to be a "trick" in UV, where if you ran a high CAP percentage, your CAP would decimate incoming strike, and then you launched on day 2. This doesn't work. Trust me (*weak grin*). Set your CAP/Escorts to something reasonable, and just let it be. If it's earlier in the war (you probably have no business hitting mega-KB anyway), but if you have to, LOWER your CAP percentage to maybe 30% – because you’re going to get decimated anyway, you need your fighters to absorb as much punishment as you can so your bombers get thru. After May/June, run “normal” CAP of about 50-60% and hope for the best.

3. LBA can be your friend. If you have a friendly base nearby with ANY bombers that can contribute, try to pull him in range. Your LBA will usually need at least one escort for every 3 enemy fighter on CAP. So if you’re going vs. mega-KB, you’ll need to escort your land-based bombers to get them to launch. Even when they do, in all likelihood, your LBA will just get nailed. But, they will disrupt the enemy CAP (successive strikes face a less effective CAP), and every little bit helps to get your own CV bombers thru. Naturally, steer clear of enemy LBA. If his LBA strikes your TF, it only serves to break up your own CAP and get your CVs sunk that much easier.

4. If you play the all-or-nothing game, don’t complain if you lose. And you might very well lose, even if you do everything right. WitP does NOT handle mega air-battles well. One side tends to completely kick the other’s arse. I have seen an even exchange on large scale, but most large CV vs. CV battles end with one side losing a CV or two, and the other being pretty much decimated. So if you’re the one that ends up on the south end of the stick, you’ve been warned.

5. You should probably consider reducing your Avenger range to 4. At 5, they might fly without escorts, carrying only 500# bombs. They’ll just get slaughtered, and even if some make it thru, those 500# bombs aren’t going to deliver for you. You’ll just lose all your torpedo bombers for nothing. So reduce the range on your Avengers to 4, and they’ll at least have escorts, and may coordinate with your SBDs. You *might* also consider reducing further to range 3 for your Avengers and SBDs. Reason being at range 4, your SBDs will only be carrying 500# bombs. At range 3 or less, they carry 1000# bombs. Those 500# bombs won’t penetrate half of the CVs of KB (Shok, Zui, Akagi), and will do (almost) nothing. So if you can insure that you’re dropping the 1000# ers, that insures that you (literally) get the most bang for your bug. HOWVER, setting your max range to 3 is a big risk. It might well be that mega-KB shows up at range 4. It knocks the sh1t out of you, and you have nothing to show for it.

6. Do NOT rely on “do not react” or reaction 0 or whatever. Reacting to enemy CVs is pretty much universally hated by everyone, but this lovely feature remains in the game. Basically, it’s where your CVs will try to close a hex with the enemy CVs, whether you want them or not. You have usually tried to plan your destination hex so as to be outside of enemy LBA and to get your guys to strike. But along comes the reaction move, some of your CVs react, so don’t, so your neat “stack” of CV TFs are no longer stacked (so not stacked CAP), and… Oh well… At least the reaction move is an equal opportunity offender, it happens to both sides, and pretty much everyone hates it. Just warning you on this note as well, so you don’t the, “WTF does “reacting to enemy CVs” mean?” At least you can say, “WTF?! I hate reaction moves!” just like everyone else.

7. As AL said, keeping the longer endurance DDs with your CVs is better, and certainly top them off before the battle. You don’t want to have burned 250 ops points in the middle of your big CV battle (reducing your move/strike ability), because your bone-head Admiral thought it might be a good time to refuel your DDs.

8. And a nearby (within 10 hexes) friendly port that you can disband at (size 3 or better) nearby might save a CV or two after the battle.

9. And yes, esp if your facing mega-KB, pull in every flight deck you onw, RN CVs, and even Long Island (CVE). Putting 16 more SBDs or Avengers onto Long Island, might mean two more hits on the enemy. Just be advised that RN CVs and esp Hermes and Long Island are going to slow you down, and that might not be what you want. You can make a "slow" CV TF, with the RN CVs, Wasp, and sundy.


Good luck. You’re going to need it.
-F-


< Message edited by Feinder -- 6/22/2007 5:13:17 PM >

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Post #: 3
RE: decisive CV combat - 6/22/2007 5:12:09 PM   
tsimmonds


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From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
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quote:

ORIGINAL: AmiralLaurent


Fuel situation: it's very important to have your CV and escort ships fuelled two days before the battle. So they won't spend op points refuelling at sea the day of the battle and may sail longer and fly more operations.



Related to this, give some careful consideration to your Home Port. Keep in mind that your AI Admiral is always looking over his shoulder, calculating how much fuel his ships need to steam from his present location to his current DH, and then on to the HP. If any of his ships seem to him to have insufficient fuel for this trip, he will refuel them. Note that if the HP is a distant port, he may decide to do this every day.

Setting to "Do not Refuel" will not avail you! This only works in port.

OP Points spent fueling are not available for movement, and points spent moving are not available for air ops, which may result in you being screwed in battle. So be sure to structure your movement so that you have plenty of op points left for air operations. It is a good idea to set to "Full Speed", and then move only about 2/3s as far as your max possible move would be. This will leave you 6-7 hundred op points for battle. Even better would be if you could get by with only moving half your max, leaving you the full 1000 op points for air ops.

Set your HP nearby, and in the direction that you would like to have your damaged ships moving after any battle.

HP is important. Speed is important. And Op Points are most important of all.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 6/22/2007 5:18:47 PM >

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RE: decisive CV combat - 6/22/2007 6:43:33 PM   
zhengxuacmilan

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		Thank you for the suggestions, AmiralLaurent and Feinder, that is quite good and helpful.

Here are some further questions:
1.single-CV TFs in the same hex is a good idea, and it seems the US navy also used the same way in the history. But I think it also demand enough surface ships to cap. It means if I have 4 single-CV tfs in the same hex, I will need about 50 other ships.  A huge number!
2.About the cap rate, Feinder, you mean that the cap planes can not benefit from a high cap rate, i.e. >70%? Maybe the decimate "theory" will destroy a lot of my planes. According to my experience, the number of the planes will also influence the air combat result.
3.I agree that using LBA to attack is helpful, and the LRCAP is not good enough. My question is Which wave of attack is the first? the LBAs or the navy bombers? I remember the mannual doesn't give a explanation about this order (maybe I forget...).
4.500P bombs can't penetrate the armor of the CVs? Yes, 500P bombs are not effective to the BBs, even CAs, but I remmember they are also deadly to CVs. (I know that Feinder sugguest a deadly attack is the best choise.) And also, I dare not set my range to 3

Well, thank you again for those detailed sugguetions.


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Post #: 5
RE: decisive CV combat - 6/22/2007 6:48:38 PM   
zhengxuacmilan

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		Yes, I just forgot the fuel problem. Thank you irrelevant.

Here one point is not clear to me, can you tell me what is the influence when spend some op just before the battle? Less planes take off from the CVs? or even fail to attack?

(in reply to tsimmonds)
Post #: 6
RE: decisive CV combat - 6/22/2007 7:00:54 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		In real life the US fleet didn't go out looking to engage the Japanese fleet in 1942. It was used as part of an over all strategy to defend key locations (Port Morseby, Midway, GC). I think this is a good strategy to follow. The allies should avoid trying to fight a decisive naval battle in 42 if they can get away with it. If you have to fight to protect a base ala Coral Sea then try to do it near friendly ports and airfields.

My experience is LBA won't help much because of the range of the Japanese carrier planes. A good player will fight outside LBA fighter range and level bombers won't hit much or won't attack due to lack of fighter escort. Once the Allies get P-38s it is a different story.

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RE: decisive CV combat - 6/22/2007 7:40:09 PM   
tsimmonds


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From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
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quote:

ORIGINAL: zhengxuacmilan

Yes, I just forgot the fuel problem. Thank you irrelevant.

Here one point is not clear to me, can you tell me what is the influence when spend some op just before the battle? Less planes take off from the CVs? or even fail to attack?


Aircraft need op points to take off and land. No op points remaining = no more aircraft taking off.

quote:

3.I agree that using LBA to attack is helpful, and the LRCAP is not good enough. My question is Which wave of attack is the first? the LBAs or the navy bombers?


My impression is that attacks are executed in the order of how long it takes each strike to travel from its base to its target.

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RE: decisive CV combat - 6/22/2007 8:04:00 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		70% CAP is about the max I'd run (but I usually run 50 or 60).  Reason being, whether you run 50 or 70, you're still going to get pummelled.  And in my experience/opinion, it's more important to get your bombers on target (with suffient escorts so that they don't get chewed up more than necessary), than to try to actually survive the blows.

Basically, I'm saying that offense is your best friend.  As Allies, you want to kill as many IJN flight decks as you can.  That means getting the best chance of getting as many bombs on target as possible, even if it means sacrificing some defence (because IMO, defense is inadaquate anyway).

-F-

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RE: decisive CV combat - 6/22/2007 8:46:06 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

70% CAP is about the max I'd run (but I usually run 50 or 60).  Reason being, whether you run 50 or 70, you're still going to get pummelled.  And in my experience/opinion, it's more important to get your bombers on target (with suffient escorts so that they don't get chewed up more than necessary), than to try to actually survive the blows.

Basically, I'm saying that offense is your best friend.  As Allies, you want to kill as many IJN flight decks as you can.  That means getting the best chance of getting as many bombs on target as possible, even if it means sacrificing some defence (because IMO, defense is inadaquate anyway).

-F-


I agree, CVs are offensive weapons. If I am not expecting much action I fly with CAP at 70% to protect against unexpected LBA strikes. If I am expecting to go into a CV battle I run with CAP at 50%


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Post #: 10
RE: decisive CV combat - 6/23/2007 9:07:47 AM   
zhengxuacmilan

 

Posts: 40
Joined: 12/30/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks all. I learn a lot from your opinions!

(in reply to niceguy2005)
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RE: decisive CV combat - 6/25/2007 3:34:10 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		Let us know how it turns out.  Good luck.

-F-

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RE: decisive CV combat - 6/26/2007 2:03:17 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		Just one other point that I have found out the hard way....USN naval search really suxs in the early part of the game......use small TFs of two or three DDs as flankers and have them steam eight to ten hexes ahead of the CV TF.   These TFs are acting as the cat's whiskers and will give you some warning.

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RE: decisive CV combat - 6/26/2007 2:07:53 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

Just one other point that I have found out the hard way....USN naval search really suxs in the early part of the game......use small TFs of two or three DDs as flankers and have them steam eight to ten hexes ahead of the CV TF.   These TFs are acting as the cat's whiskers and will give you some warning.

Raverdave brings up a great point.

I like to use subs as pickets, like 8-10 of them...there probably isn't a more valuable mission for them the first few months of the war. I also have used a CL with 1 or 2 DDs and set the CLs seaplanes to 100% nav search.

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RE: decisive CV combat - 6/26/2007 2:22:08 AM   
tsimmonds


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From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

I also have used a CL with 1 or 2 DDs and set the CLs seaplanes to 100% nav search.

Plus, that's a spiffing way to upgrade those Omahas to Baltimores and Clevelands, innit?

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RE: decisive CV combat - 6/26/2007 4:07:08 PM   
denisonh


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline 		To echo Amiral Laurents point and Ravers, for the US it is a risky proposition to operate in a truly offensive manner in 42 due to lack of quality searborne search.

I support my CV TFs with PBYs SQDNs using AVDs and/or small Base Force fragments (either transferred via PBY or fast transported) on forward unoccupied beaches/islands to provide the needed search capacity in addition to the sub screen that Niceguy mentioned. Can be a little tricky managing the forward search squadrons as it can be cat and mouse game with the Japanese, but it does seem to work.

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