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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Most useless SIG INT ever.... Page: [1]
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Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/4/2009 9:09:31 AM   
LargeSlowTarget


Posts: 4443
Joined: 9/23/2000
From: Hessen, Germany - now living in France
Status: offline 		SIG INT REPORT FOR 12/12/41

Radio transmissions detected at 64,75.
none is located at .
8th Ind. Brigade is located at Chengting.
Radio transmissions detected at 29,51.
[snip]



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AE Mod "Bottlenecks" UPDATED 01/2022
Post #: 1
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/4/2009 11:17:05 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
You're obviously not cleared for Ultra intel.....



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Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to LargeSlowTarget)
Post #: 2
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/4/2009 1:28:34 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

You're obviously not cleared for Ultra intel.....


Security found a copy of a decrypt in a waste basket in LST's house, so they took him off the list.

(in reply to Reg)
Post #: 3
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/4/2009 1:56:03 PM   
rockmedic109

 

Posts: 2390
Joined: 5/17/2005
From: Citrus Heights, CA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

You're obviously not cleared for Ultra intel.....


Security found a copy of a decrypt in a waste basket in LST's house, so they took him off the list.

Didn't somebody find Ultra Intel in a garbage can at the Whitehouse just before Pearl Harbor?

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 4
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/4/2009 2:34:27 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		This isn no worse than "Tokyo Bay fort is located at Tokyo"

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"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 5
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/4/2009 2:48:28 PM   
Panther Bait


Posts: 654
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		Or "Radio transmissions detected at San Francisco"  Wow, really they have radios in a major US City?  We better change our invasion plans!

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When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

Nathan Dogan, USS Gurnard

(in reply to RUPD3658)
Post #: 6
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/4/2009 2:55:31 PM   
Bogo Mil

 

Posts: 286
Joined: 1/28/2008
Status: offline 		Yeah, the Japanese never invaded San Francisco. Now you know why they didn't!

(in reply to Panther Bait)
Post #: 7
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/4/2009 3:48:37 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		In my game with John III I hold Iwo Jima and Toyohara and frequently receive SigInt telling me how many troops I have at my own bases.

(in reply to Bogo Mil)
Post #: 8
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/4/2009 4:22:39 PM   
Panther Bait


Posts: 654
Joined: 8/30/2006
Status: offline 		Playing as the Japanese in a current game, I am never sure if I should be concerned when I get "Radio Transmissions detected in Osaka/Kobe" in my Japanese Sig Int.  Are these spy communications? Or do the SigInt guys really think I need to know that my own forces are using the radio?  Curious?

_____________________________

When you shoot at a destroyer and miss, it's like hit'in a wildcat in the ass with a banjo.

Nathan Dogan, USS Gurnard

(in reply to Canoerebel)
Post #: 9
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/4/2009 5:03:03 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

You're obviously not cleared for Ultra intel.....


Security found a copy of a decrypt in a waste basket in LST's house, so they took him off the list.

Didn't somebody find Ultra Intel in a garbage can at the Whitehouse just before Pearl Harbor?


Yup, and hence the joke. At least according to the movie Tora Tora Tora, and touted as historical, so they took the president off the distribution list. Some things you just can't make up!

(in reply to rockmedic109)
Post #: 10
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/4/2009 10:45:29 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Sadly, I've experienced much the same playing Japan.

What makes it sad is that Japan actually had a quite sophisticated Direction Finding (DF) system. I was hoping the game would model this a bit better. While they might not have cracked the code, any allied radio keying a mic risked being plotted on a map -- and often the parametric data of the message would let the Japanese know if it was a sub, ship, plane, ground unit, etc.

And, while the military had some measure of radio discipline, especially combat ships, the merchant marine was notorious for poor radio security.

I would suspect that in real life, during any given 24 hour period, the Japanese would get a "radio transmission from base X" for just about every occupied base on the map. The gems would be the transmissions DF'd at sea.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 11
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/5/2009 6:10:57 AM   
Alfred

 

Posts: 6685
Joined: 9/28/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Panther Bait

Playing as the Japanese in a current game, I am never sure if I should be concerned when I get "Radio Transmissions detected in Osaka/Kobe" in my Japanese Sig Int.  Are these spy communications? Or do the SigInt guys really think I need to know that my own forces are using the radio?  Curious?


Yep, you should be concerned. It means that Jap Sig Int has triangulated and discovered that someone is operating a wireless set in Osaka and they haven't paid their radio licence fee.

Alfred

(in reply to Panther Bait)
Post #: 12
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/5/2009 11:44:32 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

Sadly, I've experienced much the same playing Japan.

What makes it sad is that Japan actually had a quite sophisticated Direction Finding (DF) system. I was hoping the game would model this a bit better. While they might not have cracked the code, any allied radio keying a mic risked being plotted on a map -- and often the parametric data of the message would let the Japanese know if it was a sub, ship, plane, ground unit, etc.

And, while the military had some measure of radio discipline, especially combat ships, the merchant marine was notorious for poor radio security.

I would suspect that in real life, during any given 24 hour period, the Japanese would get a "radio transmission from base X" for just about every occupied base on the map. The gems would be the transmissions DF'd at sea.

Regards,
Feltan

The game REALLY understates intel efforts (on both sides), for instance, during much of the war, the Allies had:
1) detailed OOB reports for the IJN.
2) detailed sailing orders with expected time/positions of a convoy (the Harbormaster and Merchant codes had been broken);
3) on some occasions, detailed operational reports of upcoming operations;
4) details on planned Japanese air unit transfers;
etc.

Actually, given the extensive penetration of the Japanese codes, it is estimated that the Allies could (should?) have won at least 6 months - 1 year before when they did except for the "empire building" of the Redmond brothers (the guys who robbed the credit of Midway from the Hawaiian HYPO code breaking unit and were given medals for it.)

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 13
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/5/2009 12:09:51 PM   
AW1Steve


Posts: 14507
Joined: 3/10/2007
From: Mordor Illlinois
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

You're obviously not cleared for Ultra intel.....


Security found a copy of a decrypt in a waste basket in LST's house, so they took him off the list.

Didn't somebody find Ultra Intel in a garbage can at the Whitehouse just before Pearl Harbor?


Yup, and hence the joke. At least according to the movie Tora Tora Tora, and touted as historical, so they took the president off the distribution list. Some things you just can't make up!

Yeah , but then the Navy made sure that his Navy steward "kept an eye on him" for them , to avoid things like that in the furture.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 14
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/5/2009 12:39:04 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Actually, given the extensive penetration of the Japanese codes, it is estimated that the Allies could (should?) have won at least 6 months - 1 year before when they did except for the "empire building" of the Redmond brothers (the guys who robbed the credit of Midway from the Hawaiian HYPO code breaking unit and were given medals for it.)


Please do tell - this part is news to me.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 15
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/5/2009 12:48:30 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Reg

You're obviously not cleared for Ultra intel.....


Security found a copy of a decrypt in a waste basket in LST's house, so they took him off the list.

Didn't somebody find Ultra Intel in a garbage can at the Whitehouse just before Pearl Harbor?


Yup, and hence the joke. At least according to the movie Tora Tora Tora, and touted as historical, so they took the president off the distribution list. Some things you just can't make up!

i've read in various reports about code breaking that there was truth to this... at least FDR was GOING to be taken off the list, but i am not sure it actually ever occurred.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 16
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/5/2009 12:54:04 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Actually, given the extensive penetration of the Japanese codes, it is estimated that the Allies could (should?) have won at least 6 months - 1 year before when they did except for the "empire building" of the Redmond brothers (the guys who robbed the credit of Midway from the Hawaiian HYPO code breaking unit and were given medals for it.)


Please do tell - this part is news to me.


It depends on who you read, i guess... i most recently read this in "The Emperor's Codes", which was a very nice book about code breaking from mainly the British point of view giving a lot of details i had not seen before.

The Brits were not happy about the Redmonds (USN) but appreciated of the US Army's efforts in cooperation.

Reading the information that the USN had at it's disposal, i rather believe the assertions. To model it in the game, i'd say that you'd pretty much have access to your opponent's turn for much of the game, and to parts of the turn (merchie movements) from about late April 1942 to the end of the game.

(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 17
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/5/2009 1:17:59 PM   
Feltan


Posts: 1160
Joined: 12/5/2006
From: Kansas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso


quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan

Sadly, I've experienced much the same playing Japan.

What makes it sad is that Japan actually had a quite sophisticated Direction Finding (DF) system. I was hoping the game would model this a bit better. While they might not have cracked the code, any allied radio keying a mic risked being plotted on a map -- and often the parametric data of the message would let the Japanese know if it was a sub, ship, plane, ground unit, etc.

And, while the military had some measure of radio discipline, especially combat ships, the merchant marine was notorious for poor radio security.

I would suspect that in real life, during any given 24 hour period, the Japanese would get a "radio transmission from base X" for just about every occupied base on the map. The gems would be the transmissions DF'd at sea.

Regards,
Feltan

The game REALLY understates intel efforts (on both sides), for instance, during much of the war, the Allies had:
1) detailed OOB reports for the IJN.
2) detailed sailing orders with expected time/positions of a convoy (the Harbormaster and Merchant codes had been broken);
3) on some occasions, detailed operational reports of upcoming operations;
4) details on planned Japanese air unit transfers;
etc.

Actually, given the extensive penetration of the Japanese codes, it is estimated that the Allies could (should?) have won at least 6 months - 1 year before when they did except for the "empire building" of the Redmond brothers (the guys who robbed the credit of Midway from the Hawaiian HYPO code breaking unit and were given medals for it.)


This is all quite correct. Perhaps AE will take another look at how "Fog of War" is modelled in the game; currently, it is more restrictive than the real life commanders faced.

Due to code breaking efforts, the allies should indeed have better intel. However, the Japanese were not total slouches either -- as previously mentioned, the Japanese DF system was robust, and they pretty much had the market cornered on "enhanced interrogation techniques."

With some wide margin for variation, any LCU sitting in a location for long enough should eventually be identified. OOB's will be compromised given extended contact or in combat. The real dodgey stuff is task force composition and location -- which the allies were better at, but still got caught off guard even late in the war.

Regards,
Feltan

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 18
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/5/2009 1:29:21 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline 		Given the extreme nature of what you are talking about, ideally there should be two or more modes of play in the game:

1) Historical Intel Capabilities

2) Other options (pick your level of intel for both or for each side before starting)

(in reply to Feltan)
Post #: 19
RE: Most useless SIG INT ever.... - 2/5/2009 6:54:39 PM   
m10bob


Posts: 8622
Joined: 11/3/2002
From: Dismal Seepage Indiana
Status: offline 		In reading the radio intel as an Allied power....I have found it extremely valuable to know we have detected signal traffic in Tokyo !....................

Who'da thunk?

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Post #: 20
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