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Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 5/31/2009 6:57:37 PM   
Tufkal2

 

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Status: offline 		Please use this thread for all topics, comments, bugs etc coming up in the upcoming Space Colonization testgame #2.

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 5/31/2009 7:16:24 PM   
Tufkal2

 

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Status: offline 		Ok, it seems we are all in again for testgame #2. Got some feedback we should re-randomize the regimes.
I did this (the old-fashioned way with a coin) and got the following so hope everybody is happy with this (again am willing to trade with anybody):
1. Trade Federation:     Grymme
2. Mercantile Alliance:   Vic
3. Explorer Guild:          Seille
4. Future Foundation:   Lunaticus
Balance between factions is a topic. The earlier factions have a slight advantage in being able to choose more where they are going. The later faction should look where everybody else is going and then choose a sweet spot still open. The advantage in playing later is that you have a border spaceport (now called civilian station) which is easier to defend and are actually closer to the interesting planets...

Oh and by the way: I recommend we all install the new hotfix or make a house rule that strategically moving ground units on top of solar system hexes is not allowed...
It is allowed to grab something port capable like a resource and immediately strategic transfer additional units there however...

< Message edited by Lunaticus -- 5/31/2009 7:21:56 PM >

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 5/31/2009 9:03:59 PM   
Grymme

 

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Status: offline 		Game2 started and turn sent to vic

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/1/2009 9:00:31 AM   
Vic


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Status: offline 		CEO Vic's units are leaving corporate HQs and earth orbit for exploration and colonization of solar system. :)

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/1/2009 9:14:09 AM   
seille

 

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Status: offline 		I was a bit shocked to play with the ugly red Explorers Guild, but ok it´s just fair...
Turn is on its way.

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/1/2009 3:34:15 PM   
Tufkal2

 

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Status: offline 		Turn sent on.
Some comments from my side: War should start much earlier this time. We will all get some units for defense in the next turns to prevent players from being overrun (I hope).
One of the most important decisions to take in the next turns is which kind of station to build as a first outpost:
- A spacedock is possible to build and complete but will take some attention (sorry but this is necessary for balance otherwise this is too powerful). If you reinforce the exploration group with Earth-made Construction Pods it should be possible to complete it before war breaks out however but you will not spread out as much probably.
- A civilian station gives the best production potential but no heavy combat units
- A military station finishes quickly but does not have the potential of the spacedock (but produces much more than in version 1).
Oh and the high cost of unit production will be set back to standard once the "war imminent message comes"....

And if I am not mistaken I saw that the picture for supply production now changed to a custom-one. Did this come in why hotfix 1.22? I like it...


< Message edited by Lunaticus -- 6/2/2009 4:14:43 AM >

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/3/2009 1:42:52 AM   
Tufkal2

 

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Status: offline 		Two small observations on round 2:
- It should be imperative to explore and colonize the solar system as fast as possible in order to build up off-world production. Once you have a port on a planet close to Earth you can transger and strategically move everything you wish there. In my testgames I found no real need to have transporters shuttling back and forth between Earth and outposts much but reserved them for acquiring new colonies.
- in setting up a resource market model I managed to overlook that this market can be profitably crashed (this mod is becoming maybe too realistic). Without going into the details lets make a simple house rule: You cannot both buy and sell one and the same ressource on the same turn. Will be fixed next release. Speculation in resources over different turns is of course perfectly legal...



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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/4/2009 1:57:21 AM   
Tufkal2

 

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Status: offline 		How are we all doing? Everybody should have been able to do his first landing on a new planet by now.
Actually I thought I discovered a bug but was not the case. I noticed that with the new peopletypes I set up there is actually a good overview screen where you can see who has improved his people in which way. And it seems we have different opinions as to which technologies to get which is good.
Should be noted that most units whose main role is to attack must be researched first.
One small thing I noticed in my testgames: In the beginning starting supply seems endless with 3000 but this is actually spent soon with the fleet and construction buildup (orbital constructions cost now a bit more polpoints and supply to build). In the first turns I do not build any supply but then in turn 5-6 I massively increase supply production...


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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/4/2009 8:09:13 AM   
Vic


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Status: offline 		Compared to last game i am trying to spread out way more.

I think almost all planets will be taken by 2 players as it looks like now. For Jupiter and for Mars this seems to be the case.

though i figured it would have been smarter to like maybe divide up my units completly before loading and then dumping them all around orbit of a planet (exploit idea?)

kind reg,
vic

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/4/2009 8:45:43 AM   
Tufkal2

 

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Status: offline 		Thanks for the feedback. From a mod designer perspective I very much want that as many planets as possible are divided between different players. (And that players will be able to hold on to this for some time!). So if this is happening this is good.
I tried as much as possible to prevent players from loading up on all orbital hexes. That is the reason for the current high unit costs in the first turns. It would take 12 units of which you need to create maybe 6-7 and at least 2 transports to do this. Still possible but expensive. Also the Earth Alliance will reclaim all orbital hexes not containing some construction or a unit each turn so you would need to have the units stay there. And you need to put all your future into one landing approach without being sure that not somebody is simply faster then you...
Will observe this and if it becomes a tactic then probably I need to prohibit creation of units in the first 2 turns....



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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/4/2009 7:13:58 PM   
Grymme

 

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Status: offline 		Sent the turn on.

Sorry for the delay. A lot of work at work, girlfriends birthday and then party at work (tomorrow) have conspired to stop me from playing.

Should be better in the weekend.



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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/6/2009 10:09:12 PM   
Grymme

 

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Status: offline 		Hi

One change that i think is nescessary in this mod is that all locations must be able to produce supply. Also i dont seem to be able to send supply through space via sea/landcap.

already sensing i will get more or less the same supply issues as in the previous game.



< Message edited by Grymme -- 6/6/2009 10:15:39 PM >

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/6/2009 11:19:46 PM   
Vic


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grymme

Hi

One change that i think is nescessary in this mod is that all locations must be able to produce supply. Also i dont seem to be able to send supply through space via sea/landcap.

already sensing i will get more or less the same supply issues as in the previous game.




You need a space station to receive the transfers. (see the planets as islands and space as sea and the stations as ports)

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/7/2009 1:23:32 AM   
Tufkal2

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grymme

Hi

One change that i think is nescessary in this mod is that all locations must be able to produce supply. Also i dont seem to be able to send supply through space via sea/landcap.

already sensing i will get more or less the same supply issues as in the previous game.




And please do remember that space stations (any kind) on the sending or receiving side which are damaged (or not yet completed) make transfers more costly. In effect they add Damaged% times 150 to the cost (so a half built station adds 75 to the cost). This adds to the cost of 3 per hex And as I limited the maximum cost to 120 you need a fairly developed station to transfer but will be possible for adjacant planets (Earth to any of Jupiter, Mars, Venus, Mercury e.g.).

Looking back I think I made a small design slip. I limited the maximum manual supply transfer to 40 hexes (120 points) so that players will need to have some bases. But I did not realize this will also cut the maximum production and intrinsic supply production length to 40 hexes. I will change this so that maximum supply transfer is a bit higher and the no-port penalty is a bit lower.
40 hexes is about 25% of the map so I think this should be fine. If transfer goes over half the map or further I think this would feel strange.

And a last recommendation: I recommend to build a station on each planet first as a base.

< Message edited by Lunaticus -- 6/7/2009 1:36:24 AM >

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/7/2009 7:10:21 PM   
Grymme

 

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Status: offline 		Well i read your advice. I guess i am screwed in this game also. Because i didnt build bases (i went for the resources instead). So now i will not get any supply.

I still think that all locations (or at least more of them) should be able to produce some sort of supply. It really makes the game very streamlined (cutting options) and it makes every position fragile. A, he took my spaceport. Now i will not be able to produce supply at that planet and i cannot get any supply in because that only comes through the spaceport. Guess i can write of that planet. Imo it shouldnt play like that. Players (i e me) should be able to make a mistake or two and still play on.

I have 10 locations or so. I can produce supply only at my homebase. I guess i didnt notice this the last time because i captured a couple of theese gas giants and had supply through there.


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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/7/2009 8:33:42 PM   
Tufkal2

 

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Status: offline 		Well we need to see how to resolve this for the current game. But without stations outside Earth it will be hard to survive.

Some more comments from my point of view: Most units needed to attack need to be researched first. I recommend to go for bombardment and small craft soon.
As for missiles: This is one of the things I am still looking at optimizing from a modding perspective. I do not recommend to buy missiles for defense (except maybe to scare people off). As missiles are one-shot only shooting them will also cost the owner resources which is not an optimal strategy for defense. Depending on circumstances (missiles defenses, shields, experience, readiness) the resource cost to the owner of the missile might be similar or higher on the side of the missiles then on the victim. However missiles are great to soften up a very well defended spot or the enemy flagship before attacking. Also bear in mind that there are now missiles to be used against ground targets which also do structural damage. A large missile strike can cripple or take out an enemy structure so be vary if the enemy has naval superiority around your planet.
And I recommend to use shields for defense in space combat. They are cheap and take quite some damage. Defending your transports on the Earthern Spaceports with shields is highly recommended...


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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/7/2009 8:46:17 PM   
Tufkal2

 

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Status: offline 		Btw would also be interested in everyone's view on the research fields and the new research structure?

Actually - if you did not yet saw this - there is a research field which increases production by 10% and rounds down the production values of everything. So it sets supply production costs from 6 down to 5 and the superior supply from 4 to 3 etc. So this is a nice if you are really in need of supply...


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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/7/2009 9:21:41 PM   
seille

 

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Joined: 6/19/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		So far i did not look at the new research.
But i agree fully that the first location on a new planet should be a supply production location.

I made the mistake last game to build mostly stations and docks with the result of not having the
supply to feed the 4-5 fleets i had at Venus. I learned my lesson and make sure i have a solid supply base now.

The full changes you did to the scenario we´ll figure out later, when we have more locations
and when we start fighting.

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/8/2009 9:36:23 AM   
Vic


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Status: offline 		@lunaticus,

if you really want to make the scenario easier to play you could abolish supply altogether. set all units to 0 supply need.
and form supply into a "fuel" commodity just as "food" and "ore" which is needed as upkeep for your space fleets.

just an idea. it will provide easier play, but it would take away the use of the raiders.

(if you would do this i would also take away transfers and make it mandatory to move everything manually)

but this would be a radical change to your design.

kind regards,
vic

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/8/2009 11:43:01 AM   
seille

 

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Status: offline 		I must say i like the supply management. It´s tricky sometimes, but you have to manage it well to be able to launch any attacks.
Simply make at least one civilian station per planet and things will be fine.
Imho we should play first more rounds and then discuss any needed changes/tuning. Game just started....

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/8/2009 8:17:50 PM   
Grymme

 

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Status: offline 		Well, i must admit that i am a little pissed of. Both at myself for not understanding the basic strategy, but also a little at the system. I will try to not let it affect my judgment to much.

I think the scenario needs a little flexibility. There is some in that you can always go for different planets and they will contain different things. But basicly the scenario is very streamlined. As i understand it there is one viable strategy. You have to go and produce bases. And the bases basicly control the game. If you loose one you are dead.

My suggestion would be that maybe all locations can supply. Maybe the "non" supply bases produce it at a less effective pase (50 % efficiency or something). But it is still possible. Otherwise once you loose the spacestation you can just give up on all forces on the planet.

Im not so crazy with the loose the station=loose the planet=loose the game concept. A player (me) should be able to make some mistakes in the beginning of the scenario but still be viable player.

Another idea. Maybe randomizing starting locations altogether? Is it doable?

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/9/2009 3:53:36 AM   
Tufkal2

 

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Status: offline 		Well this is quite some criticism. I think we should all look how the playtest develops. Actually I think there are a lot of different points we are talking about.

@Grymme: I understand your frustration. On the other hand I think you can only go so far against a scenario design. I hope it was clearly said that a station (any station) is needed on each planet and by not building one you will not be able to hold on to the area. Going against the scenario design here is similar to not building any troops as Germany and then saying WaW is not working because you cannot overrun France in '40.

We can of course discuss if bases and supply should play the role they currently do. I very much hope that bases are well defendable in this game and that it should be a major middle-game victory if you capture the last enemy base of a planet. We will see how this works on Jupiter and Earth this game probably. Also with the new system allowing rapid development and production you can expand to 3-4 planets early on and build maybe even more than 1 base each so even if you loose a base you can play on.
And I think there is a lot of flexibility as you have to decide where to colonize and build a base and which base to build. Once you have a foothold in an area with a base you can try to grab its ressources which is an important second step as the bases alone will otherwise lack production power.
And as I think the supply system is one of the aspects which sets AT much ahead of other games I will not take it out (remember PanzerGeneral? If you reduce an enemy unit there to 1 hp and drive it into the swamp it would just come back behind your lines with 10 hp some turns later. Not so in AT which I like much better) . I might look at giving units the ability to carry several rounds of supply or reduce the no-port penalty. As it is you can send a HQ to a planet and load it up with reserve supply. Land units as it is do not take a lot of supply so if your HQ survives with like 500 supply points you can fight on a long time. However you still need an initial port to disembark.

As for me having a 4-player-testgame is a major factor I actually hope Grymme you can comeback even in this game. If you build some of the smaller stations directly and guard them with the defensive units ("volunteers") provided I think you might be back. The bases are produced MUCH faster this game. And your initial Construction Pods should have supply for like 20 turns. So I hope this will work out even in this game. Lets see...


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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/9/2009 6:31:40 AM   
Grymme

 

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Status: offline 		Well, i dont know if its that harsh a critizism. Its a complicated scenario. Pretty much a game of its own.

Its elemental. In AT all locations produce more or less the same thing. If you have 20 cities and lose one of them you loose (on average) 5 % of your hitting strenght.

Now if there is 5 different locations that are all critical to surviving and are not interproducable then you on average only have 4 locations of each kind. If you loose one of them thats 25 % of your hitting strenght. Now if that 25 % is your military production, your port and your sole source of supply, then you can give up. Because you will never come back from that.

I am not looking for any handouts to continue playing. But it is disturbing that i (according to you) might as well give up before the war has even started. I was thinking that going for the finite and common(shared) resources would be a somewhat viable strategy.

I have said what i have to say on this subject. Others may not share my opinion but i have at least stated my case. It can always be done as a game option.

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/10/2009 4:06:17 AM   
Tufkal2

 

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Status: offline 		Lets see how this game develops. And then will reconsider if resource hexes can maybe produce some emergency supply ... at a very bad rate.

My last turn yesterday evening (turn 7) started the war so this was much faster this time. I was not yet in a position to fire any shots however...


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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/10/2009 9:17:20 AM   
Vic


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Status: offline 		eep! already?

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/10/2009 6:03:19 PM   
Grymme

 

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Status: offline 		Turn sent.

Im not sure if i remember correctly, but i think there was something said about locations getting a small autorecovery. How did you decide about this? havent seen it in any case.

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/10/2009 6:55:31 PM   
Vic


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Status: offline 		Turn done.

Was surprised to already find a presence on far away Neptune.


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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/11/2009 5:01:34 AM   
Tufkal2

 

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Status: offline 		It seems colonization goes much quicker this time, found also Pluto was already colonized.  And I scored my first kill .... against a scout but got 6 XP and a morale boost for it.

As to the autorepair. Literally I said "small autorepair for all orbital constructions" which is just as I implemented: 20 pts / round for civilian and military station and 10 pts/turn for the spacedock. Which means 0 for all resources....
Lets see how this work and then we can discuss if this needs adaption.

Dont know about the real world resource markets but I predict a price hike on both resource markets in this mod soon...


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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/12/2009 11:38:28 PM   
Tufkal2

 

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Status: offline 		Turn sent

As everybody is obviously a bit reluctant to post screens in the ongoing game and give away his strategies: If there is interest I can make an AAR with some screens in a separate thread which would then be blocked to the other players in this game. So let me know if this works for you...
Edit: As I had some free time I went ahead and started an AAR. Unfortunately for you Grymme, Vic and Seille this has to be off-limit until the end of the game. By the way: Would you mind if I reopen one or two old turns to take some pictures of the status-quo of my side (and only my side)? Forgot to make screenies and they are disabled...


< Message edited by Lunaticus -- 6/13/2009 4:06:18 AM >

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RE: Space Colonization Testgame #2 - 6/13/2009 11:49:43 AM   
Vic


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Status: offline 		I dont mind of course and encourage AAR making (as always) :)

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