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A question about reenforcements in a PBEM Game

 
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A question about reenforcements in a PBEM Game - 11/9/2002 1:29:34 AM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		Ok here is the situation. A friend of mine and I have been playing a PBEM game with a 10% artillary limit. He is new and I have been introducing new stituations and units as we play new games. We are currently playing a Russian delay (me) vs a German advance (him) in June 1941. Beginning of Operation Barbarosa. Well I was able to sneek two platoons of Motor Cycles past his lines and into his back field, by turn 6 I had found his artillary park and attacked. He did not leave any units to defend it (common mistake, I learned this the hard way myself a long time ago) and over the process of two turns lost all of his artillary, FO's and Ammo trucks.
Now here is the question, he wants to call in reenforcements, and what are reenforcements for, if not to replace units that you have lost. So taking into account the 10% rule we started with Germans at 7500 points Russians at 5000 points. He could call for 750 points worth of reenforcements.
1) If he called for artillary reenfocements would it be foul play if he asked for more than 75 points worth of artillary or
2) would it be more appropriate to say that he could purchase as much artillary as long as he never exceeded 825 points total (7500 + 750) * 10%. Because he still has some off-board artillary. Or
3) Should he be allowed to call for as much artillary as he wants since they are reenforcements and thus might exceed the original house rule of 10%.

I have never run into this before myself. But there has been times where I thought it might be nice to call for some additional artillary. I told him that I would put it up on the forum to see what other people think. So what do ya think?

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Post #: 1
- 11/9/2002 1:59:14 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		In my opinion only, option 3 if he is to be allowed to call for reenforcements he should be allowed what ever he chooses. Remember he will be the one penalized in the end scoring for choosing this option in the first place. Sounds like something the 2 players would need to agree on it though.

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Post #: 2
- 11/9/2002 4:09:53 AM   
John Galt

 

Posts: 223
Joined: 1/31/2001
From: Salem, NH, USA
Status: offline 		IMHO, let him take what he wants.....

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John Galt

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 3
- 11/9/2002 4:22:03 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		I think keeping the rules simple is best. So, no additional arty after the initial purchase. That way everyone knows how much arty the other has. Otherwise you open it up to interpretations that detract from the first goal of limiting the arty in the first place.

Note: The reinforcement limit is 20%, not 10%. (unless 10% is the preset Advance-Delay limit). So the attacker could actually get 900 pts of arty total in your option #2.

This is a good question, because it is not one that I would willingly want to ask in a serious PBEM battle because you are giving away intel if you even mention it.

I would also like to add a question about mines:
As a general rule, I believe that engineer placed mines should be the only mines allowed in a meeting engagement (i.e. most PBEM battles), unless [U]specifically[/U] requested otherwise by one player. Is this everyone else's opinion or am I wrong here.

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 4
- 11/9/2002 4:29:36 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		I think this would be a good place for everyone to come to a consensus as to the "unspoken" rules of PBEM. It kind of defeats the purpose if you ask for permission to buy mines before a game or to buy more arty during a game. And it is annoying to set up a game and have to go through all the options that you don't want your opponent to use. E.g. No prelaid mines, no air units, no Uhus in a day game to look through smoke, no first turn air-drops, etc. These should be unspoken rules unless specific exceptions are agreed upon, IMHO.

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 5
- 11/9/2002 4:50:15 AM   
cknoll

 

Posts: 11
Joined: 7/16/2002
Status: offline 		I like the option that lets me^H^H the annonymous player that Tatro is talking about do whatever I^H he wants.

-Chris

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 6
- 11/9/2002 5:00:37 AM   
Toontje

 

Posts: 345
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		I try to take some mines always if I not forget to deploy 'em what I have consistently done so far. I admire that in opponents, too. Reinforcements I tend to use to get stuf to counteract a specific treat (I tend to avoid 88mm FLaK unless it's early war and nothing else will take out heavy armoured enemy's, so if I encounter KV's/ Mathilde's I call for some.)
Maybe a light OB arty battery if the opposition has a lot of OB arty for main purpose counterbattery.

In short: Mines OK, reinforcements whatever you want.

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 7
- 11/9/2002 5:11:20 AM   
Goblin


Posts: 5547
Joined: 3/29/2002
From: Erie,Pa. USA
Status: offline 		I always limit myself to the original percentage agreed upon. In this case, I would spend just 10% of the reinforcement points on artillery.

Goblin

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Post #: 8
- 11/9/2002 8:10:24 AM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Goblin
[B]I always limit myself to the original percentage agreed upon. In this case, I would spend just 10% of the reinforcement points on artillery.

Goblin [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree. This is the way I interpret that common arrangement.

As for other limiting options, you just have to agree what you want (or don't want). If an option limit wasn't agreed upon in advance, then neither player should be beholden to it.

Dominating your force with any one weapon system has it's strengths and weaknesses. Sometimes it can be a liability all in of itself.

It's an interesting problem though. I guess he learned a valuable lesson about artillery parks. ;)

_____________________________

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- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 9
- 11/9/2002 8:45:29 AM   
Svennemir

 

Posts: 542
Joined: 11/2/2001
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I think he should be able to call for arty reinforcements roughly equivalent to losses. If you couldn't select what type of reinforcements you want, why would reinforcements exist at all? Then it would be equal to buying your reinforcements at turn 1 - you'll get some units, but not necessarily those that you might actually NEED.

The reinforcement option is there so that you can call in additional units in whatever role(s) urgently needed. I would take for granted that arty reinforcements are therefore okay. But of course we're all different =).

If he has an armada of tanks, buy ATGs as reinforcements. If your infantry lines run out of momentum, (e.g. are suppressed and scattered so you can't use them effectively because of C&C) get mech.inf. fast to support the tanks. If your artillery gets busted - what's more natural than acquire new tubes?

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 10
- 11/10/2002 3:09:32 AM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Svennemir
[B]I think he should be able to call for arty reinforcements roughly equivalent to losses. If you couldn't select what type of reinforcements you want, why would reinforcements exist at all? Then it would be equal to buying your reinforcements at turn 1 - you'll get some units, but not necessarily those that you might actually NEED.

The reinforcement option is there so that you can call in additional units in whatever role(s) urgently needed. I would take for granted that arty reinforcements are therefore okay. But of course we're all different =).

If he has an armada of tanks, buy ATGs as reinforcements. If your infantry lines run out of momentum, (e.g. are suppressed and scattered so you can't use them effectively because of C&C) get mech.inf. fast to support the tanks. If your artillery gets busted - what's more natural than acquire new tubes? [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually, this above is why I never use reinforcements - well, actually, I did use them once. It's broken, IMO.

IRL, you can't pick and choose what you get for reinforcements. If you get anything, you get what is availiible to higger command, and there are plenty of stories in the history texts we all read that tell us times when what a commander got is not at all what he wanted/needed. So, it break realism.

However, it also breaks fair play. There are just as many stories, in the PBeM world, about how people used the reinforcements to break agreements, or to just plain game the game, instead of fighting the battle.

I really hope reinforcements are done much better in CL.

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 11
- 11/10/2002 5:12:48 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		Reinforcements never should have brought into the game, but since they have been, Pandora's box has been opened and we must live with it. I believe any reiforcement should be allowed and of course the penalties are carried with them. I do use reinforcements and frankly they rarely do any good. I have had some opponents who called for reiforcemnts after the first turn and that I believe that is gaming the game. As for mines, they should never be prelaid in a meeting engagement, however- in a desert battle minefields of both sides were often present due to the shifting of battlelines so perhaps that could be negotiated.

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 12
- 11/10/2002 5:55:48 AM   
Toontje

 

Posts: 345
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		Prelaying mines can be used to game the game, but a few patches can be explainable anyway (Altrough I don't think there was FASCAM those days.)

Reinforcements can also be seen as strategic reserves (As opposed to tactical reserves you gotta use yourself), altrough using 'em before even spotting opposition can be gaming the system; in effect you can get a 10% larger army. 10% isn't that much of a difference btw.
Availlability of units that were not availlable during obtaining forces might be a bit unrealistic tho: OTOH, being able to chose your forces anyway is also unrealistic.

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 13
- 11/10/2002 3:32:31 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		Okay here is my two cents

As long as you don't exceed preset arrangements the you should be able two buy what ever you want. ( unless you play Gary then you should get extra )

Mines are a tuff one though, I see the point if you have to ask then its ruins the suprize they provide, however to many make certian types of battles(meeting engagements) into a assault with equal points. On the other hand if you had an arty park then you probably would mine the area around it to some degree

The game is the game, you are higher HQ ofcourse you get to pick what ever you want, put rarity on thats the best you are going to get.

My opinion is in meeting engagement large maps and above 50 mines max, med map 25, small 15.

There are so many good players with so many different styles thats what makes it so fun, I go over battles in my head trying to find tendicies to exploit and normally play the same person several times to give both player the options to try different tactics.

One last thing Capt P your time has come!


:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 14
- 11/11/2002 3:25:39 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		Another point is that if you put your engineers to laying mines during deloyment, most of them will hav e mines laid on the first turn. This makes purchase of mines unnecessary unless you want a s**tload of mines.

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 15
- 11/13/2002 12:20:50 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by gmenfan
[B]In my opinion only, option 3 if he is to be allowed to call for reenforcements he should be allowed what ever he chooses. Remember he will be the one penalized in the end scoring for choosing this option in the first place. Sounds like something the 2 players would need to agree on it though. [/B][/QUOTE]

you say, that the player who calls reinforcements first is the more penalized?? and i forgot about the penalicing (spelling?) you get, someone know this ??

i noticed in my 3 PBM games currently 2 of the 3 other players have called reinforcements quite early in the game, if it is true that "aux" units represent reinforcements.
:confused:
thx.

frank

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 16
- 11/13/2002 12:52:53 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		"Aux" units are reinforcements. the penalty comes in whenever you call for them. Its the same penalty regardless of when you call for them. Calling for reiforcments early in the game is not kosher although there is no way to prevent this unless you agree not to call for them before the halfway mark or some other limit. You could call for them early and hold on to them in case you need them but you would still incur the penalty.

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 17
- 11/13/2002 1:57:58 AM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drex
[B]"Aux" units are reinforcements. the penalty comes in whenever you call for them. Its the same penalty regardless of when you call for them. Calling for reiforcments early in the game is not kosher although there is no way to prevent this unless you agree not to call for them before the halfway mark or some other limit. You could call for them early and hold on to them in case you need them but you would still incur the penalty. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thx Drex,

i think these ppl. bought the re. so early to get a early force overweight on one of the frontlines to overhelm my forces.

in one of these games i will certainly be a dead man as i choose the brits (which i never played before except in the desert 42/43)
in a delay mission in 44 against german 7200 to brits 4800 points or something.

couldn´t the british build a good tank?? or a good inf. AT weapon?? even their LMG (lewis/bren) is not as good as the MG34 or even 42. how have they won the war?

okay, the brits were my own choice, but i don´t think i have a chance in this one...

but i thought the brits are stubborn fighters at least...mhhh... seems i was wrong as several at-guns and inf units in cover in rough terrain are routed or retreating from some 81mm and 75mm shelling!! what the f... ?? ;)

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 18
- 11/13/2002 7:29:51 AM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		The Brits are tough fighters but their equipment is lacking. Still the 17 pdr will kill anything the Germans have. Brits have a lot of different equipment types like the Krauts so they are fun to play anyway.

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 19
Waitin' - 11/13/2002 1:56:51 PM   
Capt. Pixel

 

Posts: 1219
Joined: 10/15/2001
From: Tucson, AZ
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]Okay here is my two cents

One last thing Capt P your time has come!


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: [/B][/QUOTE]


I gotta Save Game Slot with YOUR name on it! :D

_____________________________

"Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy, if possible. "
- Stonewall Jackson

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 20
- 11/13/2002 9:19:15 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Drex
[B]The Brits are tough fighters but their equipment is lacking. Still the 17 pdr will kill anything the Germans have. Brits have a lot of different equipment types like the Krauts so they are fun to play anyway. [/B][/QUOTE]

mhhh...but there is no good tank in 44. the sherman firefly has only a good gun but no good armor. i like more the sherman easy8 if playing the US. okay 40mm AA gun is a weapon i always use, so with the brits,too. i made deployment and force selection mistakes in this game, hope my next with the brits will be better.

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 21
- 11/13/2002 9:20:26 PM   
Frank W.

 

Posts: 1958
Joined: 10/18/2001
From: Siegen + Essen / W. Germany
Status: offline 		i wonder,too why there are no 25pd or 75 or 105mm onboard howitzer in the british OOB in 44 ??

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 22
- 11/16/2002 6:34:00 PM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		Ok, here are some "rules of honor" that I've created and honed while playing A LOT of PBEM games. These were created to counter some SP:WaW 'flaws' :

1) Reinforcements are allowed if both players agree. If not agreed, then rule of thumb is: reinforcements are forbidden in Meeting Engagements and allowed in Advance/Delay and in Assault/Defend -battles.

2) Paradrops and infiltrations are forbidden in Meeting Engagements and in Advance/Delay -battles. Paratroopers and Special Forces can still be used as regular infantry in those battles. Both are allowed in Assault/Defend battles.

3) In Meeting Engagements only engineers are allowed to place mines. In Advance/Delay battles in addition to engineer placed mines, player is allowed to buy some mines: small map = 15, medium map = 30, large map = 45 etc. In Assault/Defend battles the number of mines is unlimited.

4) Rocket launchers must reload for a minimum of 7 turns before firing another salvo (this is used with my modified 7.1 OOBs, where the ROF of Rocket Launchers was increased to 99).

5) The deliberate usage of FlaK-weaponry to counter armor is forbidden, unless the weapon was actually used in such a manner (for example german 88mm).

6) To counter enemy On-Board artillery, it is forbidden to use only smoke puffs as guidance. When you have or have had visual contact (both ground and air units qualify) to enemy On-Board artillery, you may target them.

7) Calling Off-Board artillery is allowed only by using Forward Observers or HQ.

8) It is forbidden to use 0-units of On-Board artillery batteries to direct their own fire. On-Board artillery fire is allowed to be called only by using FOs, HQ OR Platoon/Company leaders.

9) Players are allowed to use 10% (15% in Assault/Defend battles) of their points for artillery. This percentage is calculated from the amount of points available in the beginning of the inital purchase, thus the possible reinforcement points have no effect in the maximum points that are allowed to be spent for artillery.

a) In meeting engagements the Off-Board artillery is limited to a maximum of 1 battery (2 batteries in Advance/Delay battles). The allowed maximum caliber of this battery is 140mm. Rest of the artillery must be On-Board.

b) In Assault/Defend battles, with the 15% of points players may purchase the units they wish.

10) Reconnoitering is allowed but it is forbidden to drive around within the vicinity of enemy units with empty trucks, motorcycles etc. with the sole purpose of drawing fire. (For example it is forbidden to drive in circles in front of Tiger to get her to "empty her tubes" and then finish the Tiger with your own tanks).

In addition to these rules, I always encourage the usage of "realistic" unit compositions and doctrines. I've found that this is the only way to truly get excellent and fun battles.

Any comments and suggestions are welcome :)

Colonel von Blitz

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Post #: 23
- 11/16/2002 10:52:35 PM   
Drex

 

Posts: 2524
Joined: 9/13/2000
From: Chico,california
Status: offline 		Excellent list and i agree with every item on your list. In fact I will print it out and see if I can get my future opponents to abide by it also. Good work Colonel.

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 24
- 11/16/2002 11:27:19 PM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		I agree with about half, the smoke for coutry battery I have to disagree, move your arty, or as Gary and many other players do have some random units pop smoke to look like arty is at a position. Or the even tricker player ( Gary ) pop smoke by another unit knowing that the other player can see what unit is popping smoke then one or two turns later move your arty to that very same spot. Trust me this works.

Paradrops and Spec Ops, sould be used any time and sould be negotiated. I like playing on large maps. Para are very risky most of the time the get wiped out. Special Ops about 30-40% never make it they just get lost thats their penalty for use. I believe never is too strong but how many should be the question. Small map I totaly agree with you on this one.

No. 5 If you got it use it, thats what happens in real combat, trust me on this one.

No 6 Any dummy with a radio can call arty, this was the Russians main weakness in their doctrine, and one of the main reasons with the US ( Despite weaker armor units) was so successful

No 10 Recon units are supposed to make other units show their position, trucks are another thing I agree with you on trunks.
unless they mount a .50 cal, then I actively try to find armored cars with them, the trucks are cheaper and can kill them as well as carry stuff.

9. a. Buy as much as you want you will run out of ammo then they are useless the 10% art limit should take care of this or just reduce the amout of total arty used. Once you run out of ammo you will get crush, this normally makes people change tactics.

I would like to hear more comments about this, please

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 25
- 11/16/2002 11:51:57 PM   
Alexandra


Posts: 546
Joined: 12/7/2000
From: USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Colonel von Blitz
[B]Ok, here are some "rules of honor" that I've created and honed while playing A LOT of PBEM games. These were created to counter some SP:WaW 'flaws' :

1) Reinforcements are allowed if both players agree. If not agreed, then rule of thumb is: reinforcements are forbidden in Meeting Engagements and allowed in Advance/Delay and in Assault/Defend -battles.

2) Paradrops and infiltrations are forbidden in Meeting Engagements and in Advance/Delay -battles. Paratroopers and Special Forces can still be used as regular infantry in those battles. Both are allowed in Assault/Defend battles.

3) In Meeting Engagements only engineers are allowed to place mines. In Advance/Delay battles in addition to engineer placed mines, player is allowed to buy some mines: small map = 15, medium map = 30, large map = 45 etc. In Assault/Defend battles the number of mines is unlimited.

4) Rocket launchers must reload for a minimum of 7 turns before firing another salvo (this is used with my modified 7.1 OOBs, where the ROF of Rocket Launchers was increased to 99).

5) The deliberate usage of FlaK-weaponry to counter armor is forbidden, unless the weapon was actually used in such a manner (for example german 88mm).

6) To counter enemy On-Board artillery, it is forbidden to use only smoke puffs as guidance. When you have or have had visual contact (both ground and air units qualify) to enemy On-Board artillery, you may target them.

7) Calling Off-Board artillery is allowed only by using Forward Observers or HQ.

8) It is forbidden to use 0-units of On-Board artillery batteries to direct their own fire. On-Board artillery fire is allowed to be called only by using FOs, HQ OR Platoon/Company leaders.

9) Players are allowed to use 10% (15% in Assault/Defend battles) of their points for artillery. This percentage is calculated from the amount of points available in the beginning of the inital purchase, thus the possible reinforcement points have no effect in the maximum points that are allowed to be spent for artillery.

a) In meeting engagements the Off-Board artillery is limited to a maximum of 1 battery (2 batteries in Advance/Delay battles). The allowed maximum caliber of this battery is 140mm. Rest of the artillery must be On-Board.

b) In Assault/Defend battles, with the 15% of points players may purchase the units they wish.

10) Reconnoitering is allowed but it is forbidden to drive around within the vicinity of enemy units with empty trucks, motorcycles etc. with the sole purpose of drawing fire. (For example it is forbidden to drive in circles in front of Tiger to get her to "empty her tubes" and then finish the Tiger with your own tanks).

In addition to these rules, I always encourage the usage of "realistic" unit compositions and doctrines. I've found that this is the only way to truly get excellent and fun battles.

Any comments and suggestions are welcome :)

Colonel von Blitz [/B][/QUOTE]

My comments:

1. This seems self -defeating. It seems to me to allow the buy of reinforcements, even if both sides disagree, in certain battle types, and if that's the case, why make it a rule :)

2. I agree with this.

3. I agree.

4. I agree.

5. I strongly agree. This would force players to play inside the doctrine of the country they choose to play and would tend to lead to less gaming the game, as well as making it a better teaching tool. And, to counter Viking, while, indeed, people can use anything on the field, there were often consequences. 8th Army HQ, for example, forbade the use of AA guns as AT guns, and courtmartialled more than one officer who disobeyed.

6. I sorta agree.

7. I agree with most nations. You can make an argument for any 0 unit for the Americans and Germans. Though only A0's should be used for airstrikes as that was where the FAC was assigned. And, from what I've read FOs, at least American ones, were not trained to call in air.

8. I disagree. Why can't a battery commander call in his own fire? He is an Arty officer after all, and should know how, and I do think the first FDCs were developed in WW2.

9. I agree.

10. I mostly agree. I think trucks being used for tank drawing fire is wrong and gamey, but I am attacking with cycles/cav/what have you, and they have the ability to kill the tank, and I am actually trying to close with it and not moving back and forth randomly, then that should be ok.

Alex

_____________________________

"Tonight a dynasty is born." Ricky Proehl, then of the Saint Louis Rams. He was right! Go Pats! Winners of Super Bowls 36, 38 and 39.

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 26
- 11/17/2002 12:54:39 AM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by VikingNo2
[B]I agree with about half, the smoke for coutry battery I have to disagree, move your arty, or as Gary and many other players do have some random units pop smoke to look like arty is at a position. Or the even tricker player ( Gary ) pop smoke by another unit knowing that the other player can see what unit is popping smoke then one or two turns later move your arty to that very same spot. Trust me this works.[/B][/QUOTE]

Move your arty, sure that works. But that's only to counter the "eye of god" feature of the game. The whole idea why I implement this "rule" is to correct the 'flaw' in the game.


[QUOTE] [B] Paradrops and Spec Ops, sould be used any time and sould be negotiated. I like playing on large maps. Para are very risky most of the time the get wiped out. Special Ops about 30-40% never make it they just get lost thats their penalty for use. I believe never is too strong but how many should be the question. Small map I totaly agree with you on this one. [/QUOTE] [/B]

My list is, of course, not supposed to be a law. Everything is always negotiated between the players. My "rules" are just the guidelines that I've found to work.


[QUOTE] [B] No. 5 If you got it use it, thats what happens in real combat, trust me on this one. [/QUOTE] [/B]

I agree. My suggestion is that only DELIBERATE usage is forbidden; meaning that I don't want to see hills that are covered with British 3.7in AA-guns that never actually had sights for ground combat...or I don't want to see defences based on 37mm/40mm AA-guns which have high FC and RF values.


[QUOTE] [B] No 6 Any dummy with a radio can call arty, this was the Russians main weakness in their doctrine, and one of the main reasons with the US ( Despite weaker armor units) was so successful [/QUOTE] [/B]

The doctrines must be taken into account.


[QUOTE] [B] 9. a. Buy as much as you want you will run out of ammo then they are useless the 10% art limit should take care of this or just reduce the amout of total arty used. Once you run out of ammo you will get crush, this normally makes people change tactics. [/QUOTE] [/B]

There are ammo dumps and ammo trucks. Using these one can make arty last full battle and that's why there is this percentage rule applied.

Colonel von Blitz

_____________________________

--Light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak--

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 27
- 11/17/2002 12:56:31 AM   
Colonel von Blitz

 

Posts: 262
Joined: 12/4/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alexandra
[B]8. I disagree. Why can't a battery commander call in his own fire? He is an Arty officer after all, and should know how, and I do think the first FDCs were developed in WW2.[/B][/QUOTE]

This rule is implemented because battery commander is almost always used to target the fire for the sole purpose of getting 0.1 delay.

Colonel von Blitz

_____________________________

--Light travels faster than sound, that's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak--

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 28
- 11/17/2002 1:21:32 AM   
VikingNo2


Posts: 2918
Joined: 1/26/2002
From: NC
Status: offline 		On (9a), I believe Ammo Dumps and truck should count and part of you arty total, I was refering to limiting the off board arty.


The eye of god, good point, then does that meen I can have Sepc Ops so I can spot the arty LOL;)

On No 5 I don't agree with buying loads of AA gun for ground purposes I just think if there is a target you should be able to shoot at it with what ever you have. I like to buy multi purpose units, example M15a1 37mm AA gun I try to disable tanks and kill APCs and armored cars with them. I guess the point is mute because after rereading both post we agree.

On No 7 Many times air missions where sent in a gereral area and told to attack targets of oppertunity, thats kinda what you do when you attack with air in this game.

What are the opinions of overloading on infantry?

I'm also want to know a gereral concinsus on deleting of units from formations. I think if you are doing it to meet some preset condition then its OK. But any other ocasion should not be allowed then you whould get closer to the doctrine of that country. On this one in pitcular I would like to have comment


:D :D

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 29
- 11/17/2002 5:50:55 AM   
Toontje

 

Posts: 345
Joined: 10/9/2002
From: The Netherlands
Status: offline 		My opinion:

*1) Reinforcements

I don't really think 10% really makes a difference. It might tip the ballanceit a bit but there are still random factors involved.

*2) Paradrops and infiltrations are

Paradrops I can see the problem with on turn 0, as it's advanced troops with little risk, but infiltrators I don't think should be much banned etc. The infiltration is a good option, so long it's not 50% or so infiltrators.

*3) Mines
I can live with these guidelines.

*4) Rocket launchers

Hmua, rocket launchers are just onboard arty.. if it's much trouble, plot an airstrike over it or use your own arty.

*5) The deliberate usage of FlaK-weaponry

It's iffy, I consider FlaK too vulnerable anyway to use in such roles. So long it's not overused I can live with it.

*6) To counter enemy On-Board artillery,

Disagree as you otherwise would be unable to counterbattery. OffB arty can also be hit without LOS.

*7) Calling Off-Board artillery is allowed only by using Forward Observers or HQ.

The 1 turn later of arival usually means hit probabilities are worse.

*8) It is forbidden to use 0-units of

It's again up to the player altrough I consider it cheap.

*9) Players are allowed to use 10%

I personally use a guideline of 20%. Besides, I cannot see the point in having so much arty as it's not that interesting to watch nor really efficient.

*a) In meeting engagements the

OffB will get out of ammo. Usually I myself take a battalion of light plus a battery of heavier. Again, it's not interesting enough to play with too much arty, which means more boring play => maybe other players

*10) Reconnoitering is allowed but it is

Again, doing such a thing is kinda cheap. However, what is that tiger doing unsupported anyway?

*In addition to these rules, I always encourage the usage of "realistic" unit compositions and doctrines. I've found that this is the only way to truly get excellent and fun battles.

realistic might be a problem if you don't know what was used at the time. And rigidly adhering to used tacics leaves less rome for creativity.

(in reply to Gary Tatro)
Post #: 30
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