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** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/12/2012 6:43:35 PM

abulbulian

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OK, this is kind of surprising that the hard attack for a Marder II is completely inconsistent with not only it's equipment, but also with it's proven ability on the battlefield. My guess is Vic (or the researcher?) decided it was because of it's not having a turret and that is why the hard attack is very low?

Guess, there was a typo on the '45', and it should have been '55'.

Here's my logic on the Marder II:

- had 76mm(Sov) gun or 75mm pak
- the T-70 has a 45mm gun and has a hard attack of 55?
(and yes I know that long vs short barrel is a factor.. but even ups here)
- even though Marder had no turret, it was very effective at killing tanks

This issue is not a game breaker for me, but rather just *miss* on the historical details. I won't judge yet, because I'm guess it's just a typo.

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/12/2012 7:39:01 PM

Ritterkrieg_slith

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There are a few unit details that seem suspect. One small example is tanks (all) defend at a reduction in low hills. At some point, a team will have to go through the entire equipment and check it out.

Troy

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/13/2012 12:24:30 AM

sullafelix

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I think we should give Vic a break on some things. This game was a one man show. With all the great things that are in the game he was probably under time constraints on certain aspects of the game.

I am not saying to let it slide but as Rittekrieg points out now that this is out ,it can be fine tuned.

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/13/2012 5:36:13 AM

jjdenver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05
I think we should give Vic a break on some things. This game was a one man show. With all the great things that are in the game he was probably under time constraints on certain aspects of the game.

I am not saying to let it slide but as Rittekrieg points out now that this is out ,it can be fine tuned.

I don't think the comments in this thread are harsh at all. We don't want to stifle attempts to make the game better do we?

The game's good but it has holes so the more discussion about those holes the quicker it'll be rectified. The alternative is that it becomes a game like the Time of Wrath/Fury games that people just lose interest in quickly because they are so broken.

You like Vic? I think we all do.
You like the game? I think we all do.
You want to improve the game? I think we all do.

So I encourage this kind of discussion. That's my 2 cents. :)

< Message edited by jjdenver -- 8/13/2012 5:37:17 AM >

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/13/2012 8:13:01 AM

aspqrz02

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Yes, Vic has done an outstanding job ... and even the plain vanilla game is excellent ... but, yes, it can be improved ... and, based on the level of support Vic has provided in the past, it will be, and will also support user mods in ways that most other developers simply don't.

I think Vic and all the modders are doing a really great job, and are all to be congratulated and encouraged to continue to do so!

I've looked at doing some modding myself, and am in awe of them all ... it's a bloody complex task

Now all we have to do is wait for DC:Barbarossa and DC:War in the West (including an Italian campaign add on)

Phil

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/13/2012 12:57:10 PM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Yes, Vic has done an outstanding job ... and even the plain vanilla game is excellent ... but, yes, it can be improved ... and, based on the level of support Vic has provided in the past, it will be, and will also support user mods in ways that most other developers simply don't.

I think Vic and all the modders are doing a really great job, and are all to be congratulated and encouraged to continue to do so!

I've looked at doing some modding myself, and am in awe of them all ... it's a bloody complex task

Now all we have to do is wait for DC:Barbarossa and DC:War in the West (including an Italian campaign add on)

Phil

Barbarossa will be a big task. Divisional-level sub-units? How many KM per hex? Timescale?

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/13/2012 5:44:00 PM

Erik Rutins

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By all means, if you find any values that look wrong, please report them and we'll investigate.

Regards,

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/13/2012 9:22:23 PM

jjdenver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz
Now all we have to do is wait for DC:Barbarossa and DC:War in the West (including an Italian campaign add on)

Barbarossa will be a big task. Divisional-level sub-units? How many KM per hex? Timescale?

Wow I'd love to see that. I think Vic himself said he'd love to see a modder create a Barbarossa game with divisional (not regimental) level units. Of course that would be a huge task. But there's a guy named Grymme who has created huge scenarios for AT:Gold. However he is very prodigious but he gets bored once he releases v1 of a mod/scenario then doesn't circl back to correct problems - at least that's my experience - so you get a lot of mods with HUGE potential but too many flaws to be very playable. I'm not criticizing him because he's immensely talented, just feeling sad that the many mods he creates never turn out to be all they can be. Anyway, that's another topic - if we can get a dedicated modder into DC then we have a chance to get a Barbarossa scenario....

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/13/2012 10:19:30 PM

sullafelix

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I didn't think the comments were harsh. I am sure there are a few " misses " in the various parts of the game.

I was just saying that it was a one man labor of love and not done by a group or studio.

I have seen more than a few games done by a group that has plenty of " misses " in them.

One of the things that is great about the game is it's very moddable. I just meant that, that being the case it might be moddable also.

Because in wargames as in flightsim games I have seen more than a few forum wars over the weapons etc. in the game and the values attributed to them by the programmer.

< Message edited by sulla05 -- 8/13/2012 10:22:02 PM >

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/14/2012 4:44:16 AM

aspqrz02

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
Barbarossa will be a big task. Divisional-level sub-units? How many KM per hex? Timescale?

Nah! Same scale as DCCB! Divisions split into Regiments, with some units down to Battalion level

Yeah, I know ... would really be pushing the AI, if not the game engine ... still, one can dream, can't one?

(I remember, fondly, playing bits and pieces of Drang Nach Osten (the original SPI boardgame) ... yes, when it was first released (dates me, hey?

) ... and it was fun, if ... daunting ... with a computer to handle it? What I've been dreaming of for ... decades ...

Phil

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/14/2012 11:21:33 AM

Redmarkus5

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I've got GDW's Fire in the East sitting in its box right here beside me, which is basically the same game as DNO SPI - almost identical maps, counters and rules IIRC.

All I have ever asked of an East Front computer war game is for it to match the excitement of playing the corresponding board game. DCCB comes closest so far for me.

All the units and values are available - it's just a huge task to implement and I still have a lot to learn about the Editor.

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/14/2012 11:44:20 AM

aspqrz02

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Woops, I meant GDW's DNO, of course, 1st Edition, with the extension, "Unentschieden", IIRC. too ... of course, I have SPI's WitE (1st Edition) and WitW (1st Edition) as well ... which really dates me!

Yep. DCCB come *really* close. And if and when the OOB/TO&E is tweaked a bit, it will come even closer!

Phil

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/14/2012 2:33:54 PM

Redmarkus5

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I think it may be the same game but with different packaging. Mine says GDW Europa Game 1, Fire in the East and then "22 June, 1941: Drang Nach Osten..."

I got mine in the USA, so they probably changed the packaging a little for that market.

My extension is called "The Urals" - takes the game about 50-100 hexes further east.

< Message edited by redmarkus4 -- 8/14/2012 2:34:54 PM >

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/14/2012 3:28:50 PM

aspqrz02

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Ah, see, mine was *First Edition* for both ...

1973

... like I said, dates me

You, on the other hand, have Fire in the East, the 1984 reprint

I call trumps

Got mine direct from GDW by mail, way way back, around the time I had a direct from SPI in USA subscription to Strategy and Tactics, and only a year after I bought Panzerblitz ... this was before there was really anywhere much to buy boardgames here in Sydney, let alone in Australia ... had to jump through hoops to get US$ Bank Drafts in those days, you had to justify why you wanted them ... no Credit Cards or PayPal

Read all about S&T on the back of Analog Science Fiction Mag, as I was a big SF Fan (and still am) ... so, yes, 1st Edition!

Phil

< Message edited by aspqrz -- 8/14/2012 3:29:53 PM >

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/14/2012 3:33:32 PM

jjdenver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
I think it may be the same game but with different packaging. Mine says GDW Europa Game 1, Fire in the East and then "22 June, 1941: Drang Nach Osten..."
I got mine in the USA, so they probably changed the packaging a little for that market.
My extension is called "The Urals" - takes the game about 50-100 hexes further east.

There was an early edition called Drang Nach Osten with an extension called Unentscheiden. Then later they remade it as Fire in the East, Urals, and Scorched Earth.

I think it's being re-made yet again with further refinements. But I'm not 100% sure of that.

Those were fun games. I spent lots of time playing them in my youth.

But I'd like to see a divisional scale 41-45 Russian Front game made by Vic or a modder. The regimental scale is just too much to be do-able at that level.

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/14/2012 3:36:27 PM

Redmarkus5

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Yep, you win. However, I did have to fly to the US in order to go to the only board game shop stocking these titles in the whole of Florida in order to buy mine!!! No credit cards for youngsters just out of uniform in those days...

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/14/2012 5:39:54 PM

sullafelix

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I think that is why the DC series is so appealing to alot of people. It reminds me exactly of playing a huge wargame on a table top but with two or three people to help you manage the paperwork.

I think I have the reprint of DNO. I'm to lazy to go check.

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/14/2012 5:53:16 PM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sulla05

I think that is why the DC series is so appealing to alot of people. It reminds me exactly of playing a huge wargame on a table top but with two or three people to help you manage the paperwork.

I think I have the reprint of DNO. I'm to lazy to go check.

Send one of those helpers to check for you ;)

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/14/2012 7:52:50 PM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
I think it may be the same game but with different packaging. Mine says GDW Europa Game 1, Fire in the East and then "22 June, 1941: Drang Nach Osten..."
I got mine in the USA, so they probably changed the packaging a little for that market.
My extension is called "The Urals" - takes the game about 50-100 hexes further east.

There was an early edition called Drang Nach Osten with an extension called Unentscheiden. Then later they remade it as Fire in the East, Urals, and Scorched Earth.

I think it's being re-made yet again with further refinements. But I'm not 100% sure of that.

Those were fun games. I spent lots of time playing them in my youth.

But I'd like to see a divisional scale 41-45 Russian Front game made by Vic or a modder. The regimental scale is just too much to be do-able at that level.

Divisional scale shouldn't really be too hard you just replace withe regimental pieces with divisional pieces and it should all come together pretty easily.

For germans korps would be the main unit along with X# of divisions
For russians it would be armies & divisions.

It's a pretty cool system i'm a fan of it. Maybe i will do that jjdenver. I was working on my "Case Blue Extra" Scen that does some tweaks but maybe to set myself apart it needs to be divisional scale. Though the logistics of OOB and such is where i'd need some help.

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/14/2012 7:55:34 PM

bwheatley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Ah, see, mine was *First Edition* for both ...

1973

... like I said, dates me

You, on the other hand, have Fire in the East, the 1984 reprint

I call trumps

Got mine direct from GDW by mail, way way back, around the time I had a direct from SPI in USA subscription to Strategy and Tactics, and only a year after I bought Panzerblitz ... this was before there was really anywhere much to buy boardgames here in Sydney, let alone in Australia ... had to jump through hoops to get US$ Bank Drafts in those days, you had to justify why you wanted them ... no Credit Cards or PayPal

Read all about S&T on the back of Analog Science Fiction Mag, as I was a big SF Fan (and still am) ... so, yes, 1st Edition!

Phil

LOL boys will be boys with their pissing matches of whos the better wargamer. :)
Always someone who has liked wargames longer. I remember when i was a kid my dad got me a battle of gettysburg board game that we played together. That was really a lot of fun and my first taste for loving wargames. Well and loving MD (my home) based Avalon Hill. ;)

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/14/2012 10:55:33 PM

LiquidSky

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The OOB's for those earlier GDW games were done before all the freedom to information from the war opened up. And the designers at the time didnt have access to the wealth of information, including feedback from others with access to information that newer designers have now.

There has been a new Fire in the East coming out (called Total War) for like the last ohhhhhhh...century or so :) The maps have been released for it, but the latest in the soap opera is that a fire in the apt building that they live is preventing them from shipping out the game. http://www.hmsgrd.com for all the gory details.

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/15/2012 2:30:37 AM

aspqrz02

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Yeah, I was motivated to check up on what the status was with Europa ... and read about the fire. If I understand, the latest reprint was about to go to the printer, too

And here I was almost thinking of putting in an order for the complete pack ... my copies went adrift some years ago, they may be in storage boxes, or not. Still got WitE and WitW, though ... and lots of others (including that very first Panzerblitz!)

Phil

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/15/2012 3:37:25 AM

Jeffrey H.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
I think it may be the same game but with different packaging. Mine says GDW Europa Game 1, Fire in the East and then "22 June, 1941: Drang Nach Osten..."
I got mine in the USA, so they probably changed the packaging a little for that market.
My extension is called "The Urals" - takes the game about 50-100 hexes further east.

There was an early edition called Drang Nach Osten with an extension called Unentscheiden..

I had a copy of those in zip lock bags, they were'nt boxed.

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Post #: 23

RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/15/2012 2:43:39 PM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Ah, see, mine was *First Edition* for both ...

1973

... like I said, dates me

You, on the other hand, have Fire in the East, the 1984 reprint

I call trumps

Got mine direct from GDW by mail, way way back, around the time I had a direct from SPI in USA subscription to Strategy and Tactics, and only a year after I bought Panzerblitz ... this was before there was really anywhere much to buy boardgames here in Sydney, let alone in Australia ... had to jump through hoops to get US$ Bank Drafts in those days, you had to justify why you wanted them ... no Credit Cards or PayPal

Read all about S&T on the back of Analog Science Fiction Mag, as I was a big SF Fan (and still am) ... so, yes, 1st Edition!

Phil

LOL boys will be boys with their pissing matches of whos the better wargamer. :)
Always someone who has liked wargames longer. I remember when i was a kid my dad got me a battle of gettysburg board game that we played together. That was really a lot of fun and my first taste for loving wargames. Well and loving MD (my home) based Avalon Hill. ;)

So, does that mean you win? ;)

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/15/2012 2:48:16 PM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

The OOB's for those earlier GDW games were done before all the freedom to information from the war opened up. And the designers at the time didnt have access to the wealth of information, including feedback from others with access to information that newer designers have now.

There has been a new Fire in the East coming out (called Total War) for like the last ohhhhhhh...century or so :) The maps have been released for it, but the latest in the soap opera is that a fire in the apt building that they live is preventing them from shipping out the game. http://www.hmsgrd.com for all the gory details.

I have to meet the guy who drew this map - he's got to be the Olympic champion of war game development! Do you think he drew the entire Europa map???

http://hmsgrd.com/images/consimworld_web/agc_early.jpg

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RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/15/2012 2:50:38 PM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
I think it may be the same game but with different packaging. Mine says GDW Europa Game 1, Fire in the East and then "22 June, 1941: Drang Nach Osten..."
I got mine in the USA, so they probably changed the packaging a little for that market.
My extension is called "The Urals" - takes the game about 50-100 hexes further east.

There was an early edition called Drang Nach Osten with an extension called Unentscheiden..

I had a copy of those in zip lock bags, they were'nt boxed.

I guess what you had was 'Europa Lite' ;)

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Post #: 26

RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/15/2012 2:51:18 PM

Redmarkus5

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

quote:

ORIGINAL: jjdenver

quote:

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4
I think it may be the same game but with different packaging. Mine says GDW Europa Game 1, Fire in the East and then "22 June, 1941: Drang Nach Osten..."
I got mine in the USA, so they probably changed the packaging a little for that market.
My extension is called "The Urals" - takes the game about 50-100 hexes further east.

There was an early edition called Drang Nach Osten with an extension called Unentscheiden. Then later they remade it as Fire in the East, Urals, and Scorched Earth.

I think it's being re-made yet again with further refinements. But I'm not 100% sure of that.

Those were fun games. I spent lots of time playing them in my youth.

But I'd like to see a divisional scale 41-45 Russian Front game made by Vic or a modder. The regimental scale is just too much to be do-able at that level.

Divisional scale shouldn't really be too hard you just replace withe regimental pieces with divisional pieces and it should all come together pretty easily.

For germans korps would be the main unit along with X# of divisions
For russians it would be armies & divisions.

It's a pretty cool system i'm a fan of it. Maybe i will do that jjdenver. I was working on my "Case Blue Extra" Scen that does some tweaks but maybe to set myself apart it needs to be divisional scale. Though the logistics of OOB and such is where i'd need some help.

Forget that - build this! http://hmsgrd.com/images/grandeuropa%20_west.jpg

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WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to bwheatley)

Post #: 27

RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/15/2012 3:09:08 PM

Toby42

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Joined: 8/10/2003
From: Central Florida
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I had all of the original Europa Series. The maps were awesome when they were all laid out on my rec-room floor. It took me days to set-up all of the counters!

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Tony

(in reply to Redmarkus5)

Post #: 28

RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/15/2012 4:12:02 PM

aspqrz02

Posts: 1024
Joined: 7/20/2004
Status: offline

Decisive Campaigns: War in Europe!!!

Grand Europa and setting up counters, pfui!

Phil

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Author, Space Opera (FGU); RBB #1 (FASA); Road to Armageddon; Farm, Forge and Steam; Orbis Mundi; Displaced (PGD)
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Email: aspqrz@tpg.com.au

(in reply to Toby42)

Post #: 29

RE: ** Why is Marder II hard attack so low in comparison - 8/15/2012 6:23:59 PM

Redmarkus5

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Joined: 12/1/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aspqrz

Decisive Campaigns: War in Europe!!!

Grand Europa and setting up counters, pfui!

Phil

Yep, and you can't really take Europa with you when you travel either - imagine what you'd have to tell the hotel staff to stop them from tidying your room!

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WitE2 tester, WitW, WitP, CMMO, CM2, GTOS, GTMF, WP & WPP, TOAW4, BA2

(in reply to aspqrz02)

Post #: 30

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