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F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/16/2015 2:01:40 PM   
thewood1

 

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This was a full operational test of six F-35Bs going through 130 sorties and all the realistic logistics and maintenance encompassing a full operational tour. Just some F-35 porn, but also a good look into deck operations on an LHA.

https://youtu.be/zv6SRY5Zj3g

Just to point out the obvious...this isn't just some PR from a company. These are operational aircraft in a real unit on a real ship on a real cruise. Love it or hate it, the F-35 is operational and on real deployments.
Post #: 1
RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/16/2015 3:45:14 PM   
wild_Willie2


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I find it strangely relaxing that nobody on this site immediately starts yammering that "the F-35 is a piece of sh*t" as soon as something is posted about it. I always have to laugh out loud when these "experts" start arguing that upgraded F-15's, F-16's and A-10's are a much better choice then buying F-35's to replace them... Clearly, they have never tried fighting these non stealth legacy AC against the latest Russian AC designs and SAM systems in a war game :)

W.

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/16/2015 4:48:51 PM   
ckfinite

 

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I should note that the F-35B isn't actually operational at this very moment - that was OT-1, which was a few weeks. IOC will be declared (if everything goes well) in another week or so. It'll still be some time before they actually fly in combat though, probably circa 2018.

USAF is the next, with IOC planned for next year (with block 3i software), followed by the USN in 2017 with block 3f.

(in reply to wild_Willie2)
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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/16/2015 5:29:12 PM   
Primarchx


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I don't mind the F-35, but I wish they hadn't pushed the STOVL design limitations onto the F-35A/C. The STOVL version should of been a separate design.

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/16/2015 5:56:51 PM   
ckfinite

 

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quote:

but I wish they hadn't pushed the STOVL design limitations onto the F-35A/C. The STOVL version should of been a separate design


They didn't really - the F-35B's limits aren't really reflected on the A/C (e.g. 1000lb bomb carriage). The STOVL's only real impact on the other two was the volume that's currently filled up by a fuel tank. The CATOBAR F-35C imposed many more issues on the other two, however, since it needed a lot more changes (larger wing, stronger undercarriage, tailhook, strengthened fuselage). It's even the most expensive of the 3.

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/16/2015 6:20:41 PM   
Yokes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2

I find it strangely relaxing that nobody on this site immediately starts yammering that "the F-35 is a piece of sh*t" as soon as something is posted about it. I always have to laugh out loud when these "experts" start arguing that upgraded F-15's, F-16's and A-10's are a much better choice then buying F-35's to replace them... Clearly, they have never tried fighting these non stealth legacy AC against the latest Russian AC designs and SAM systems in a war game :)

W.


At the risk of turning this thread into a another example of irrational internet drivel... (please keep it civil folks)

I am not a fan of the F-35 for lots of reasons, but I wanted to specifically ask about people's experience with "stealth" in Command. Personally, I find it a bit ... underwhelming.

Specifically, I have a hard time going toe-to-toe against modern aircraft using F-35s and F-22s while remaining undetected. Especially when VHF radars are in use. The VHF radars get an approximate fix on me at long range, which cues the fighters with IR sensors to localize and shoot at me with IR-guided weapons. I still have an advantage, but not so much of an advantage to justify the reduced number of aircraft I can afford (due to stealth).

Stealth against older aircraft? Clubbing baby seals. But I can do that with F-15s too...

I also got the impression from various books/media that using a B-2 should allow you to waltz through enemy territory so long as you didn't play chicken with enemy fighters or buzz radars. My experience with Command has been very different. Sending a B-2 within 50 miles of a SAM radar was a great way to turn $2 billion into scrap metal.

So, anyone have similar experiences? Or am I just bad at using stealth?

(Before you ask, yes, I was using the "internal only" loadouts. I also understand the value of "sneaking around" to get flank/rear shots, but that is not always an option when you are, for example, protecting a HVA.)

Yokes

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/16/2015 6:34:57 PM   
Yokes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ckfinite

quote:

but I wish they hadn't pushed the STOVL design limitations onto the F-35A/C. The STOVL version should of been a separate design


They didn't really - the F-35B's limits aren't really reflected on the A/C (e.g. 1000lb bomb carriage). The STOVL's only real impact on the other two was the volume that's currently filled up by a fuel tank. The CATOBAR F-35C imposed many more issues on the other two, however, since it needed a lot more changes (larger wing, stronger undercarriage, tailhook, strengthened fuselage). It's even the most expensive of the 3.


The A/C aircraft are compromised by the horrible aerodynamic design required to fit the B's lift fan behind the cockpit. It's the poor aerodynamics that result in the EM deficiency of the aircraft highlighted by the recent "F-35 versus F-16D" report recently leaked.

Primarchx is correct that the A and C models could have been decent aircraft if they had been purpose-designed for their role and not connected with the (IMHO useless) STOVL requirement from the Marines.

However, developing three unique aircraft at the same time was never going to be acceptable due to the price that would have come with it. (Oh the irony!) Plus, the Marines knew they would never get the public/congress/DOD/anyone with critical thinking skills to allow them to design/build a STOVL fighter in isolation. So they very smartly tied their (again, IMHO useless) requirement for STOVL to the very real need for the replacement of F-16s and A-10s (both in the US and abroad). DARPA played ball with their "affordable" all-in-one fighter study, and Lockheed Martin pulled off the most masterful "too big to fail/porkbarrel politics" campaign of all time, and presto: F-35 today!

This is dangerously close to becoming a rant, so I better stop now before I become one of those internet trolls I hate so much.

Yokes

(in reply to ckfinite)
Post #: 7
RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/16/2015 6:52:17 PM   
SeaQueen


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quote:


So, anyone have similar experiences? Or am I just bad at using stealth?


Yes I have, and it depends.

First off, consider the threat. SA-2s versus 5th generation stealth aircraft, or a B-2 probably shouldn't do so well. SA-20s on the other hand... even stealth aircraft probably ought to be careful. Similarly MiG-25s against 5th generation stealth aircraft probably won't do so good. On the other hand, Su-35s might be more challenging.

Furthermore, stealth aircraft work best when you still have all the supporting aircraft to provide ECM support to them. That means you need EA-6s, EA-18s, EF-111, EC-130 or similar aircraft to provide jamming support. You also probably also want support from E-2 or E-3 aircraft to provide them with an early warning.

Even with all that, stealth has it's limitations. As you've noticed, it doesn't completely eliminate the possibility of detection. Typically, it just reduces the range at which you're detected. If you have a good estimate of how far away they can see you, then that indeed opens up the possibility of simply flying around the threat SAMs.

As the shoot down of the F-117 in Croatia demonstrated, though, stealth is not magic shield that protects you from everything. It definitely helps, but if you use it crudely, it won't help that much.

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/16/2015 7:43:08 PM   
Primarchx


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Stealth a/c work best using passive and off-board active sensors + electronic warfare support. Use off-axis approaches to minimize detection vulnerability and launch your weapons in a way that limits launch detection. Don't get closer than you have to (there's a reason AIM-9X hasn't been fully fitted to the Raptor fleet yet...). Stealth doesn't remove the critical need for SEAD, it should just make it easier.

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/16/2015 7:57:06 PM   
Cheechako

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Primarchx

Stealth a/c work best using passive and off-board active sensors + electronic warfare support. Use off-axis approaches to minimize detection vulnerability and launch your weapons in a way that limits launch detection. Don't get closer than you have to (there's a reason AIM-9X hasn't been fully fitted to the Raptor fleet yet...). Stealth doesn't remove the critical need for SEAD, it should just make it easier.

Yup, I use the same general setup. I try to fly around high end SAMs or make a point to neutralize them first. Stealth isn't an I win button... you still have to use tactics and support aircraft to make your stealth aircraft effective.

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/16/2015 7:59:41 PM   
cf_dallas


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Really good article on Foxtrot Alpha a couple months ago talking about what the Marines would have to do to make the F-35B worth the huge cost (financial, aerodynamic and otherwise) of the STOVL requirement.

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/7-things-the-marines-have-to-do-to-make-the-f-35b-worth-1560672069


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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/16/2015 8:19:11 PM   
thewood1

 

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A lot of this comes back to realizing stealth isn't single thing that was suddenly invented as a "cloak of invisibility". It is really about making the radar system/operator see something different than they are looking for. Go from someone looking at the readout saying, "enemy aircraft at 12:00 high"...to someone saying, "Hey, what was that? Is it a flock of birds". Or it might be something that makes a missiles' tracking system see something below the threshold of a lock.

The F-35 is not supposed or going to be invisible to all radars. It is supposed to make it a little harder. It will be very mission-dependent and enemy dependent on how successful it can do that.

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/16/2015 11:56:59 PM   
Randomizer


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Using CMANO to model the F-35 in combat

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/17/2015 1:31:35 AM   
mikeCK

 

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I think many are concentrating too much on the stealth features of the F-35. One of its biggest advantages is not the stealth but is own detection systems. It can see you long before you see it...which means generally, the f-35 decides whether to fight and if it wants to fight, obtain an advantageous position. The new helmet visor displays the location of all enemy radars and aircraft in a full 360 degree bubble around the aircraft. The pilot can "look through" the bottom of his plane and see any aircraft or objects highlighted with their speed, altitude, direction, etc. The trick is to not just fly as close as you can get to radar....the plane shows the different radar emissions and assists in plotting a course through the weakest parts. All of this info and targets displayed for the pilot need not be detected by his radar either...it is networked with all of the other planes in the sky. So the F-35 sees you long before you see it, dictates the engagement and knows where everything in the area is at all times even if it hasn't been detected by that plane

It's the information that is made available to the pilot combined with the advanced radar and stealth that make the F-35 so good. In addition, with the new off-bore sight technologies, traditional energy maintenance in a turning fight becomes less important as it isn't necessary to maintain your nose pointed at the enemy. In an F-35, I can see you, orient myself, launch an attack and -in short spurts- super cruise to another location without you detecting anything but my incoming missiles

Don't look at it like a generation 4+ aircraft with stealth. That's like suggesting an iPhone is worse than a 2005 phone because it's bigger and there are no buttons. It's entirely different technology

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/17/2015 3:40:03 AM   
ckfinite

 

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quote:

The A/C aircraft are compromised by the horrible aerodynamic design required to fit the B's lift fan behind the cockpit.


I'm interested - how does adding a few cubic meters of volume to the front of the fuselage drive the entire aerodynamic design of the aircraft? The aircraft was always going to be about the same width and length (see following diagram), due to the size and volume of the internal stores and the need for serpentine intakes. How, exactly, did the lift fan's volume compromise performance?



If anything, the CATOBAR requirement was actually the nasty one, too. This was the LM CALF (JSF predecessor, STOVL and conventional takeoff) proposal:



And here's the progression of designs:



The F-35C's CATOBAR requirement was harder to fill than the STOVL's, driving a more conventional design. I think that this was because the F-35C is so much more radically different than either of the other two.



This is caused by a lot of things, including a much stronger fuselage, a larger wing, the totally different undercarriage, and the tailhook.

quote:

It's the poor aerodynamics that result in the EM deficiency of the aircraft highlighted by the recent "F-35 versus F-16D" report recently leaked


Have you actually read the report that Axe selectively quoted from? The pilot was addressing the effects of some absolutely brand new control law changes, not trying to dogfight. Specifically, he found that in high AoA positions, positions only made possible by control law changes made weeks before, a lot of energy was bled off. Furthermore, another complaint Axe highlighted was insufficient yaw control - control that, if you read the actual report, was available but inaccessible thanks to the control laws. These changes culminated in other BFM testing, where the F-35 performed much better. The F-35's flight control software needed evolution, and tests like that inform the software development.

This was essentially telling the pilot "go out and test the software," in a plane that isn't really representative of the final product (AF-2 is limited to just 5G, for just one example). It didn't have much bearing on the F-35's overall performance at all.

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/17/2015 6:06:26 AM   
charlee22009

 

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Please, please read AirPower Australia's work on the F-35. It's fantastic and goes into more detail about the LO realities, according to aspect and wavelength, than you would probably find in any other declassified text.

I'm not 100% sure on what is really 'correct' (how could I be) but AP Aus's work is better than I've read anywhere else... my 2 cents.

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/17/2015 10:34:12 AM   
ckfinite

 

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APA is quite bad. Kopp, the author of most of the material, is hopelessly biased against the F-35 for a complex set of reasons (mostly, it appears that he tried to sell the RAAF on an F-111 upgrade instead). As a result of this, he tries to denigrate the F-35's capabilities in every possible way.

Let's look at one example, his RCS article on it. He estimates the RCS based entirely on eyeballing it and derives a number totally at odds with everything released about it - a act made worse by the high quality computer modelling he did for the PAK-FA.

If you have an article of his that you think is particularly good, please link it.

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/17/2015 11:00:42 AM   
thewood1

 

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Yeah, be very careful with the APA site. His credibility has taken a beating. At tis point he is almost shrill. If you look at what he has said historically about other aircraft, you can see the pattern.

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/17/2015 1:00:29 PM   
cf_dallas


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ckfinite

APA is quite bad. Kopp, the author of most of the material, is hopelessly biased against the F-35 for a complex set of reasons (mostly, it appears that he tried to sell the RAAF on an F-111 upgrade instead). As a result of this, he tries to denigrate the F-35's capabilities in every possible way.


Yeah, Kopp and David Axe are both in the same boat for me. I like all their non F35 articles, but anything related to F35 is selectively researched at best and comes off as shouting "I told you so."

I thought Kopp's conflict of interest was that he has an ownership stale in the company that sell Hornet spares/support to the RAAF? Either way, giant grain of salt.


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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/17/2015 4:51:26 PM   
charlee22009

 

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Thank you. I did not know that about apa. I thought that rcs article was reliable first time I read it.

Is there another open source for detailed information about the f-35? Not general but very detailed?
Thanks for the heads up.

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/17/2015 4:56:47 PM   
Yokes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ckfinite

I'm interested - how does adding a few cubic meters of volume to the front of the fuselage drive the entire aerodynamic design of the aircraft? The aircraft was always going to be about the same width and length (see following diagram), due to the size and volume of the internal stores and the need for serpentine intakes. How, exactly, did the lift fan's volume compromise performance?



Two issues:
1. Area ruling is messed up by that extra volume. Poor area ruling causes a large drag rise in the transonic region of flight, which happens to be where most air combat takes place.
2. The wing is too small. This came from keeping the weight down for the STOVL version. If you look at the equations that define many of the important aircraft performance parameters (rate of climb, cruise range, sustained turn rate, etc.) they all contain wing loading (weight/wing area) as a parameter. In general, high wing loading = poor fighter performance. (There are some exceptions.)

quote:


quote:

It's the poor aerodynamics that result in the EM deficiency of the aircraft highlighted by the recent "F-35 versus F-16D" report recently leaked


Have you actually read the report that Axe selectively quoted from? The pilot was addressing the effects of some absolutely brand new control law changes, not trying to dogfight. Specifically, he found that in high AoA positions, positions only made possible by control law changes made weeks before, a lot of energy was bled off. Furthermore, another complaint Axe highlighted was insufficient yaw control - control that, if you read the actual report, was available but inaccessible thanks to the control laws. These changes culminated in other BFM testing, where the F-35 performed much better. The F-35's flight control software needed evolution, and tests like that inform the software development.

This was essentially telling the pilot "go out and test the software," in a plane that isn't really representative of the final product (AF-2 is limited to just 5G, for just one example). It didn't have much bearing on the F-35's overall performance at all.


I sure did read those reports. To me, the most important section is the "Energy Management" section.

quote:


Overall, the most noticeable characteristic of the F-35A in a visual engagement was its lack of energy maneuverability.


There are several other places where the issue is the control laws, such as the high-AOA regime. Great. That can be fixed with software. But you can't fix EM with software.

As for the aircraft not being representative of the final product, that cuts both ways. It was lacking much of the low-observable materials, which reduced its weight, which improves its EM performance. So there were advantages and disadvantages to using that pre-production model. Personally, I think those effects all wash out and are lost in the noise.

Someone else mentioned Dr. Kopp as a source for more information. You have to be careful with his writing because some of it is good and some is garbage. However, he does understand basic aerodynamics, and his early writings accurately predicted the poor EM performance of the aircraft. Of course, so was everyone else who was capable of basic math and knew the right equations.

By the way, I tried looking for Wikipedia entries for the equations so you can run the numbers yourself, but for once Wikipedia let me down. I was using Raymer's aircraft design book, but it's a bit on the expensive side.


< Message edited by Yokes -- 7/17/2015 5:59:29 PM >

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/17/2015 5:49:39 PM   
ckfinite

 

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quote:

1. Area ruling is messed up by that extra volume. Poor area ruling causes a large drag rise in the transonic region of flight, which happens to be where most air combat takes place.


However, the internal stores really make up for most of that.

quote:

2. The wing is too small. This came from keeping the weight down for the STOVL version. If you look at the equations that define many of the important aircraft performance parameters (rate of climb, cruise range, sustained turn rate, etc.) they all contain wing loading (weight/wing area) as a parameter. In general, high wing loading = poor fighter performance. (There are some exceptions.)


Not really - if this had been a problem the F-35A could have had the F-35C's wing. The C's wing has the major issue of limiting the aircraft to 7.5g instead of 9g, but this is missing the point a bit. The F-35 uses large internal bays for munitions (look at the cutaway diagram to see them) so the fuselage width is much wider than the traditional wing loading metric accounts for. When you add this in, the wing loading then becomes comparable to that of the F-16. As it turns out, E-M doesn't really account for a lot of modern aerodynamics, since it assumes that the wings of the aircraft describe a very simple shape and that there are no other lifting surfaces.

quote:


I sure did read those reports. To me, the most important section is the "Energy Management" section.


What was particularly notable to me was the reasons stated for the conclusion, namely that the pitch and yaw rates were insufficient. When you read back in the report, these reduce to control law problems, as the FCS was able to reach high pitch/yaw rates when challenged.

quote:

But you can't fix EM with software.


You can screw up EM with software, which is what they seemed to do according to the report.

< Message edited by ckfinite -- 7/17/2015 6:56:03 PM >

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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/17/2015 10:47:36 PM   
Yokes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ckfinite

quote:

1. Area ruling is messed up by that extra volume. Poor area ruling causes a large drag rise in the transonic region of flight, which happens to be where most air combat takes place.


However, the internal stores really make up for most of that.



That article is looking at drag counts and is not talking about area ruling at all.

Speaking of external stores, they are (almost universally) hung under the wings, near the middle of the aircraft, so they have a smaller impact on area ruling. The airplane is already "fat" there, so a little more "fat" doesn't make much of an impact. The problem with the F-35 is that it goes from "pointy" to "fat" really quickly since it has to make room for the lift fan right behind the cockpit.

quote:


quote:

2. The wing is too small. This came from keeping the weight down for the STOVL version. If you look at the equations that define many of the important aircraft performance parameters (rate of climb, cruise range, sustained turn rate, etc.) they all contain wing loading (weight/wing area) as a parameter. In general, high wing loading = poor fighter performance. (There are some exceptions.)


Not really - if this had been a problem the F-35A could have had the F-35C's wing. The C's wing has the major issue of limiting the aircraft to 7.5g instead of 9g, but this is missing the point a bit. The F-35 uses large internal bays for munitions (look at the cutaway diagram to see them) so the fuselage width is much wider than the traditional wing loading metric accounts for. When you add this in, the wing loading then becomes comparable to that of the F-16. As it turns out, E-M doesn't really account for a lot of modern aerodynamics, since it assumes that the wings of the aircraft describe a very simple shape and that there are no other lifting surfaces.



The F-35C's wing is still too small. It's wing loading is still too high.

As far as considering the F-35 a "lifting body" (as the article you cited argues) and therefore the EM methodology is bunk, well, we would also have to consider all the other fighters with a flat bottomed fuselage as a "lifting body" as well, right? So does anyone think the traditional EM computations for the F-14, F-15, Su-27 are wrong? No. Why? Because while it is true that a flat-bottomed fuselage does generate some lift, it turns out to be a very inefficient way of producing lift. (It tends to be draggy.) So designers usually try to minimize the lifting aspect of the body since it causes drag. (The pitching moment created can also cause issues with high-AOA pitch stability.)

In summary, the simple computation of wing area that ignores the fuselage's contribution is not as accurate as one that does take it into account, but it doesn't actually change the answer very much. That's why people have continued to use that method to compare F-104s to F-15s and the comparisons still come out pretty accurate.

quote:


quote:


I sure did read those reports. To me, the most important section is the "Energy Management" section.


What was particularly notable to me was the reasons stated for the conclusion, namely that the pitch and yaw rates were insufficient. When you read back in the report, these reduce to control law problems, as the FCS was able to reach high pitch/yaw rates when challenged.



More from the report:
quote:


The EM of the F-35A is substantially inferior to the F-15E with PW-229s due to a smaller wing, similar weight, and ~15,000 lbs less in afterburner thrust.


No mention of yaw or pitch rates in that statement, which is speaking directly to the cause of the EM deficiency.

quote:


Insufficient pitch rate exacerbated the lack of EM.


I read that to say the EM was bad, but the lack of pitch rate made it terrible. Fixing the software will improve it from terrible to bad. Yay?

quote:


quote:

But you can't fix EM with software.


You can screw up EM with software, which is what they seemed to do according to the report.


The report seemed to say the software made the EM deficiency worse, not that it was the cause of it. EM is a product of aerodynamics, and software can't change the laws of aerodynamics.

Yokes

(in reply to ckfinite)
Post #: 23
RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/17/2015 11:15:47 PM   
ckfinite

 

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quote:

The F-35C's wing is still too small. It's wing loading is still too high.


I really find that hard to believe, especially given the g-loading limits mostly imposed by the size of that wing. Making it bigger would only serve to further restrict maximum turn rate due to structural issues, and that size was only chosen in the first place to allow a sufficiently low stall speed.

quote:

Because while it is true that a flat-bottomed fuselage does generate some lift, it turns out to be a very inefficient way of producing lift


There were a number of successful lifting bodies that flew for no other reason, and the F-35 has a much more heavily curved fuselage than the other aircraft you mention.

quote:

No mention of yaw or pitch rates in that statement, which is speaking directly to the cause of the EM deficiency.


So how did the STOVL version alone drive the single engine requirement (and not cost, reliability, and size)? Also, the F135 is rather similar in performance to the 2xPW-100 configuration for the F-15 - and is, with full fuel, 10,000lbs lighter.



(in reply to Yokes)
Post #: 24
RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/18/2015 1:53:30 AM   
Yokes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ckfinite

I really find that hard to believe, especially given the g-loading limits mostly imposed by the size of that wing. Making it bigger would only serve to further restrict maximum turn rate due to structural issues, and that size was only chosen in the first place to allow a sufficiently low stall speed.



Exactly. To build a bigger wing would require more structure and therefore more weight. They sized the wing to support the STOVL requirement and that limited the maximum size and strength. The A model kept the same wing for cost savings (commonality), but the Navy wanted more range, so they spec'd a bigger wing, but at the cost of maximum G loading.

So yes, even the C model wing is too small.

quote:



There were a number of successful lifting bodies that flew for no other reason, and the F-35 has a much more heavily curved fuselage than the other aircraft you mention.



So I taking from that statement that you familiar with what a lifting body looks like. Are you suggesting that the F-35's fuselage was designed to be a lifting body? Do you have any evidence that it was designed to be a lifting body? I have never heard anything along those lines, so I would love to see any references you have.

quote:


So how did the STOVL version alone drive the single engine requirement (and not cost, reliability, and size)? Also, the F135 is rather similar in performance to the 2xPW-100 configuration for the F-15 - and is, with full fuel, 10,000lbs lighter.


I'm not sure if I understand the question, so if I missed your point please correct me.

The STOVL version drove the requirement for a single engine because of the difficulty in cross-linking two engines (in the case one fails). People have tried to solve this, but the consensus is that its better to use a single engine. Plus there was the whole "affordability" aspect of the project that drove the single engine as well.

I'm not sure how the PW-100 is germane to the discussion. The pilot in the report quoted above was using the F-15E with PW-229s as a comparison.

Yokes

(in reply to ckfinite)
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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/18/2015 2:01:58 AM   
thewood1

 

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I am not sure a modern fighter has been developed in the last 10 years where the aircraft body was not designed as a form of lifting body. It is standard practice.

(in reply to Yokes)
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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/18/2015 2:13:24 AM   
Yokes

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thewood1

I am not sure a modern fighter has been developed in the last 10 years where the aircraft body was not designed as a form of lifting body. It is standard practice.


Maybe it's an issue of semantics.

I agree that the lifting affects of the fuselage are taken into account with all modern fighters. But I would estimate that the lift generated by the body accounts for something like 5%-10% of the total lift. I wouldn't consider that a "lifting body", and I don't consider it enough to cause a meaningful change in the wing loading analysis of the aircraft.

If anyone has numbers on the fuselage's contribution to lift I would love to see it. I'm just spitballing, so I'd love some hard info.

Yokes

(in reply to thewood1)
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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/18/2015 2:27:01 AM   
thewood1

 

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I am an aerospace engineer by schooling and my nephew works for Boeing as an airframe structural engineer. I discussed it with him a few minutes ago and he said 25% is the expected contribution to the lift vector on a modern fighter. 5% would more than likely be for a round body like an airliner.

(in reply to Yokes)
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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/18/2015 3:38:49 AM   
Yokes

 

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That sounds reasonable.

(in reply to thewood1)
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RE: F-35 on board USS Wasp - 7/19/2015 4:38:59 AM   
tacmaps

 

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Stealth in this game is really well modeled, but you have to understand how signature reduction works in real life as well as how its modeled within the game.

If you look at the aircraft in the DB under the signature section, you'll see it has a range of IR and RCS values for front, side, rear, top of the aircraft.

You will notice that the frontal aspect is the lowest for each too. This is the same as real life. The frontal aspect has no flat surfaces pointing in the direction of an illuminating radar, so frontal radar cross section (which is one of the factors in the radar maximum range equation) is the smallest.

In real life, the frontal aspect also has the lowest IR signature due to the exhaust plume at the rear of the aircraft being masked by the aircraft's fuselage.

The same applies for visual size too. The front is the smallest visible aspect.

So some tips for using stealth aircraft that I've worked out are:

- When approaching to close range with the enemy, keep your nose pointed at them. Turning side on or away will give away your location and you'll be fired on.

- High altitude and speed gives you a better PK on your missile shots, but if you approach the target/s too fast you will have less time to get off a large volley before flying too close to the enemy and being detected. I have better success getting well within the NEZ on minimum thrust, then firing of 2/3rds of my flight's missiles in the first volley and splitting them between targets so they are attack from all angles. This approach is consistent with what one of the Australian exchange pilots said of his experiences being shot down by the F-22. He said that the F-22 wasn't using its high altitude, high speed capabilities at all to kill him.

Re: APA Analysis. Carlo Kopp is a very smart guy and his site is a very good source of data, unfortunately his bias against the F-35 (due to engineering and test contracts they missed out due to the RAAF's choice of the F-35 instead of a modernized F-111 + F-22 combo) has led him to publish conclusions that are completely inconsistent with the data presented on his site. This might be why they haven't published anything meaningful since their shallacking by people with REAL access to the F-35's capabilities in the Aus parliament in 2012.

Also, because he doesn't have access to software that can simulated rayleigh scattering, he makes some incorrect assumptions on its impact re: RCS of fighter sized objects.

If I could just edit the database, I'd reduce the F-35's agility to 4. It would also be good if I could lower the OODA loop delay time significantly without having to change the pilot skill level. F-35 will have some features to speed up the decision loop and sorting process.

(in reply to Yokes)
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