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Reliability of critical hits and FOW

 
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Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/20/2019 4:27:19 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		Just looking for some advice on this.

In the actual text report it showed twice the Ark Royal had fuel storage explosion -twice!! Did not know criticals of one type can happen twice...Obviously it says it sunk on the report but I have not seen a big wedge of planes go into the losses total. Is it possible that all this is fantasy and fog of war.


Sub attack near Billiton at 52,92

Japanese Ships
SS I-160

Allied Ships
CV Ark Royal, Torpedo hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Ajax
CL Glasgow
DD Thracian

Fuel storage explosion on CV Ark Royal
Fuel storage explosion on CV Ark Royal
SS I-160 launches 6 torpedoes at CV Ark Royal
I-160 bottoming out ....
DD Thracian attacking submerged sub ....
SS I-160 eludes DD Thracian by hugging bottom
DD Thracian cannot reach attack position over SS I-160
DD Thracian cannot reach attack position over SS I-160
DD Thracian fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Thracian fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Thracian fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Thracian fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub



Post #: 1
RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/20/2019 4:43:29 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		You can have multiples of the same type, although I have only seen one magazine explosion per ship. Maybe the Chiefs only have one Girly magazine per ship . . .

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RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/20/2019 4:53:53 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		mmmmhhh interesting but what do you think about the chance of it all being FOW.

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Post #: 3
RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/20/2019 4:58:34 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I don't know, usually they are correct.

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RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/20/2019 5:58:19 PM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		Does anybody (who has finished a game and subsequently discussed various incidents probably) know if critical hits are sometimes not shown in the combat summary?

In an unfinished PBEM the HIJMS TAIHO was reported hit by one torpedo and after more than a month of game time still shows as sunk on the ships sunk list. No fuel or ammo explosion was reported in the Combat Summary. A single hit shouldn't do that to a big ship like TAIHO unless there was a critical hit but since the submarine that fired the torpedo subsequently underwent a significant depth charge attack maybe they didn't hear or see a fuel/ammo explosion that happened (I know this sounds exactly like the real fate of HIJMS Taiho but this happened in a PBEM).


< Message edited by spence -- 8/20/2019 5:59:33 PM >

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Post #: 5
RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/20/2019 7:47:58 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		You are forgetting the excellent results of the IJN Damage Control.

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RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/20/2019 8:36:08 PM   
jwolf

 

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Status: offline 		One month on the sunken ship list really is not very much time. I have seen many incidents of damaged enemy ships which were listed as sunk for 6-12 months before being sighted again or otherwise reported still alive by intel.

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RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/20/2019 9:52:24 PM   
BBfanboy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

You can have multiples of the same type, although I have only seen one magazine explosion per ship. Maybe the Chiefs only have one Girly magazine per ship . . .

Not to be confused with Ammunition Storage Explosions on a CV type or "Massive Explosions" on other ship types. I have never seen a ship survive a magazine explosion so that is why multiples are unlikely. But the first two I mention can happen multiple times and I once saw an IJN carrier get four Fuel Storage Explosions as my battleships put big shells into her!

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RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/21/2019 2:16:25 PM   
Barb


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From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline 		Each hit had a chance for Ammo/Fuel/other critical hit (I think it is just probabilities are related to ship type) - so 3 torpedo hits have a chance to trigger 3 such messages.

So I believe those two messages you see about "Fuel storage explosion on CV Ark Royal" are both true. The damage should be massive (say 60+sys,80/40 flt, 40 eng, 50 fires), but there is a chance she is alive - especially if there were not Operational losses related - also if her aircraft were in the air at the time, the ops losses would actually count only those planes left on her while the rest landed elsewhere.

< Message edited by Barb -- 8/21/2019 2:18:19 PM >

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RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/21/2019 2:45:49 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		Thanks for that. Also I suppose there is a chance that the fires will kill off in a couple of turns. You are correct about the operational losses they are not there.


Rather strange in real life she was also sunk by a submarine. Apparently there were a lot of design defects which contributed to her loss.

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RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/21/2019 4:21:18 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
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Status: offline 		If the Ark Royal sank with planes on board, those would be ground losses. If the planes are in the air when an aircraft carrier is sunk and the planes have to land in the water, those are operational losses. When a base is overrun, those are operational losses. Float planes are other ships work the same way.

edited to delete a double sentence.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 8/21/2019 4:58:32 PM >

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Post #: 11
RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/21/2019 4:31:20 PM   
Cavalry Corp

 

Posts: 3107
Joined: 9/2/2003
From: Sampford Spiney Devon UK
Status: offline 		Are you sure I thought they would be operational losses on the ships.... Anyway I will have to check it out. You may be correct.

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Post #: 12
RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/26/2019 11:55:50 AM   
fcooke

 

Posts: 1156
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Boston, London, Hoboken, now Warwick, NY
Status: offline 		I sometimes think there is some cute code in the program. But in my games Sara always seems to get tagged 2-3 times a game, much as in RL. Maybe the Taiho suffers from a 'one and done' seed as well. Idle speculation, but would to see Mutsu go boom at her moorings one day. I know we have collisions, but has anyone every seen a fatal grounding? More than one US sub was lost this way during the war, including either the Darter or Dace - the subs responsible for taking out the Maya (timely thread) and her sisters.

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RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/26/2019 2:08:49 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I don't have the game open to the Allied side nor tracker open but you might want to check the maneuverability rating of the Lady Lex and the Sara. It should be low as they were single rudder ships. I don't know about the Taiho but any gasoline leak in an enclosed space . . .

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I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

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RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/26/2019 3:34:23 PM   
BBfanboy


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From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fcooke

I sometimes think there is some cute code in the program. But in my games Sara always seems to get tagged 2-3 times a game, much as in RL. Maybe the Taiho suffers from a 'one and done' seed as well. Idle speculation, but would to see Mutsu go boom at her moorings one day. I know we have collisions, but has anyone every seen a fatal grounding? More than one US sub was lost this way during the war, including either the Darter or Dace - the subs responsible for taking out the Maya (timely thread) and her sisters.

I thought the same thing after seeing Wasp, Lexington and Saratoga and PoW and Repulse all suffer from attacks nearly identical to RL attacks. I said on this forum that I thought there must be something in the game engine that makes them more likely to get hit in this kind of circumstance but Alfred jumped in and said "No" in his usual terse way.
So why does the database contain a field listing the actual RL date of loss, I wonder?

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RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/26/2019 5:13:38 PM   
Kull


Posts: 2625
Joined: 7/3/2007
From: El Paso, TX
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BBfanboy

I thought the same thing after seeing Wasp, Lexington and Saratoga and PoW and Repulse all suffer from attacks nearly identical to RL attacks. I said on this forum that I thought there must be something in the game engine that makes them more likely to get hit in this kind of circumstance but Alfred jumped in and said "No" in his usual terse way.
So why does the database contain a field listing the actual RL date of loss, I wonder?


Sara has eaten at least one torpedo in the early stages of every game I can remember! I suppose the "opportunity percentage" is higher, because that's also when the AI has a nest of subs in the LA area and around Pearl (her usual transit zone), plus the US ASW and Nav search pilot numbers are fairly abysmal at that point. Probably should mix things up and send her to NW Australia, instead.

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RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/26/2019 5:29:34 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		On 9 December 1941, I gave the Big E take two torpedo hits from one of my mini-sub carriers returning from Pearl Harbor. No reaction set and no special route. The sub didn't fire at a cruiser that it saw first, then it fired 8 torpedoes at the Big E. One ammo explosion, one fuel explosion, and two days later a bunch of carrier planes of the Ground Destroyed status. It was about four hexes south of Johnson Island and it did not go there. It shows up listed as sunk near one of the Hawaiian Islands.

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 17
RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/26/2019 6:46:41 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

On 9 December 1941, I gave the Big E take two torpedo hits from one of my mini-sub carriers returning from Pearl Harbor. No reaction set and no special route. The sub didn't fire at a cruiser that it saw first, then it fired 8 torpedoes at the Big E. One ammo explosion, one fuel explosion, and two days later a bunch of carrier planes of the Ground Destroyed status. It was about four hexes south of Johnson Island and it did not go there. It shows up listed as sunk near one of the Hawaiian Islands.

Was this PBEM or against the computer? The sub declining to attack a CA and then firing at a CV sounds like the AI cheating( because it "knows" there is a better target about to appear)!

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RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/26/2019 6:53:10 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		I am playing IJ against the Allied computer. So it was not the computer cheating against me. I did not see the Big E on the first attack attempt, only when it got hit. The IJN sub even managed to reload and fire its torpedo tubes!

I have yet to play PBEM. I need a better internet access. I nice chair would also help.

< Message edited by RangerJoe -- 8/26/2019 6:54:10 PM >

_____________________________

Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


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Post #: 19
RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/26/2019 7:02:03 PM   
BBfanboy


Posts: 18046
Joined: 8/4/2010
From: Winnipeg, MB
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RangerJoe

I am playing IJ against the Allied computer. So it was not the computer cheating against me. I did not see the Big E on the first attack attempt, only when it got hit. The IJN sub even managed to reload and fire its torpedo tubes!

I have yet to play PBEM. I need a better internet access. I nice chair would also help.

Every time an office company goes out of business it dumps ergonomic office chairs on the second-hand or auction market. You can get a $300 chair for $30, often gently used.

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No matter how bad a situation is, you can always make it worse. - Chris Hadfield : An Astronaut's Guide To Life On Earth

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Post #: 20
RE: Reliability of critical hits and FOW - 8/26/2019 7:20:32 PM   
RangerJoe


Posts: 13450
Joined: 11/16/2015
From: My Mother, although my Father had some small part.
Status: offline 		But I don't live in a large community and I have no vehicle at the present time. Otherwise, I could go over to US highway 59 and if they let me cross the border, keep heading NNW . . .

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Seek peace but keep your gun handy.

I'm not a complete idiot, some parts are missing!

“Illegitemus non carborundum est (“Don’t let the bastards grind you down”).”
― Julia Child


(in reply to BBfanboy)
Post #: 21
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