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Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/20/2005 2:02:08 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		Ok looking at some of the Fort class units...

for instance the Obs Post in Germany

It has 4 men crew
weapons=AT Rifle, MG, and Riflex5
which is 7 weapons for 4 men
or does the "riflex5" not count as the total number of weapons...
does the program actually see it as just one weapon?
If you get what I am saying...

I know that for instance, infrantry units that have say 3 men can't have 4 weapons..
Thanks
Alby



< Message edited by Alby -- 6/20/2005 2:08:37 AM >

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RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/20/2005 3:13:13 AM   
KG Erwin


Posts: 8981
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From: Cross Lanes WV USA
Status: offline 		Damn, Alby, that's a heck of an observation post, isn't it? The weapons loadout is obviously wrong. You got 4 guys, so change the RifleX5 to weapon 157, the Karabiner 98k. I think these were overlooked because no one would buy them anyway, would they?

The X number DOES mean the number of weapons. This is why the 1944 USMC F squads have BARx3--they had three BARs, one for each 4-man fire team.



< Message edited by KG Erwin -- 6/20/2005 3:18:03 AM >

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RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/20/2005 4:17:51 AM   
omegaall


Posts: 317
Joined: 7/28/2003
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Alby

Ok looking at some of the Fort class units...

for instance the Obs Post in Germany

It has 4 men crew
weapons=AT Rifle, MG, and Riflex5
which is 7 weapons for 4 men
or does the "riflex5" not count as the total number of weapons...
does the program actually see it as just one weapon?
If you get what I am saying...

I know that for instance, infrantry units that have say 3 men can't have 4 weapons..
Thanks
Alby




Why can't they have 4 weapons?

quote:


KG Erwin:
Damn, Alby, that's a heck of an observation post, isn't it? The weapons loadout is obviously wrong. You got 4 guys, so change the RifleX5 to weapon 157, the Karabiner 98k. I think these were overlooked because no one would buy them anyway, would they?

Acytually these Rifles x 5 are classed as secondary weapons. The number is wrong for the number of troops so it would be more correct to use Weapon #184 - Kar 98 Rifle x3, not the single version 157.
Simple case of when all else fails, no primary weapon ammo, grab a rifle!

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RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/20/2005 5:10:42 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		heres an answer I got from someone who I know has good knowledge of the game...
Makes good sense to me.....

"One weapon is one weapon...regardless of how it's named.
Those "weaponx5" and such are single weapons (usually used in slots 2, 3, or 4) meant to represent multiple actual weapons. Their HE Kill numbers are higher than the single version of the weapon, making them more deadly. But they count as one weapon, not 5.

Remember: the game treats the weapon in the first slot, if it's a Primary Infantry weapon, as belonging to each member of the unit's Crew. So, a squad of 10 men armed with the M1 Garand in Slot 1, when it fires, the game determines how many of the 10 men fire, and the HE Kill for the Garand is multiplied by that number. Which is why the casualty rate for infantry fire can be so great; a weapon with an HE Kill of 1 doesn't do much, but if 10 men fire, then the weapon acts with an HE Kill of 10. However, if the weapon in slot 1 is NOT a Primary Infantry type, then it is only fired once. So, in order to represent the rest of the crew firing their personal weapons, some of these "multiple rifle/SMG" weapons were created.

In your example, there are 3 weapons: AT Rifle, MG, and Riflex5. Although the last one should in effect be Riflex4, there is no such weapon in the German OOB. This weapon is usually used in fortifications with crews of 15+ men, representing the other men not assigned to the crews of the main weapons, like AT guns and MGs. For this particular unit, I would suggest changing the third weapon to the single rifle weapon, since at least two men would be working the MG (the gunner and the assistant), and only the Post Leader would have a free hand."

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RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/20/2005 8:59:42 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
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From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		My question would be why does an OP have so much firepower? I thought OPs were just that, to observe and report more than to stand and fight.

Most OPs pulled out (if they could!) when the enemy got that close. I've read of a few heroic stands, even in the first Gulf War (Khafji), but that is by far the exception rather than the rule.

WB

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Post #: 5
RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/21/2005 12:38:05 AM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
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From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		Good Point...WB
In fact the OBs Post Icon looks more like a concrete bunker!!
LOL


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RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/21/2005 3:02:45 AM   
Svennemir

 

Posts: 542
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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I may be mixing things up from SPMBT and other versions of SP, but I believe that for a squad with M men, exactly those weapons with slot numbers less than or equal to M may fire. There may well be exceptions to this rule depending on the type of squad (MGs, Inf-ATs, and obviously vehicles).

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Post #: 7
RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/21/2005 7:11:09 PM   
Wild Bill

 

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Status: offline 		WHat does "M" men mean?

WB

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Post #: 8
RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/21/2005 7:26:57 PM   
Svennemir

 

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quote:

WHat does "M" men mean?


Mathematically: for ANY number, let's call it M so we don't have to write them all :)

For example, if you have 3 men in a squad, then only weapon slots 1..3 will fire even though all four slots may contain weapons.

The reason why I wrote it that way was that it would be logical for the programmers to implement it this way (I know I would), and it is easier to remember something which is logical.

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RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/22/2005 7:43:02 AM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
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From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Makes perfect sense. Thanks. That is the logical way to present that fact. Men can't use a weapon if they are not there to use it. Thus a single man unit can use only one weapon, eh? So arming him to the teeth is a wasted exercise. Makes sense. If he used up all his ammo for one weapon could he then use another in his repertoire?

WB

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Post #: 10
RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/23/2005 9:29:22 PM   
Svennemir

 

Posts: 542
Joined: 11/2/2001
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		If my statement is correct, then since the other weapon would be number two or greater, and there is only one man, he cannot use that weapon even if he ran out or jammed the first weapon.

Another interesting consequence of the statement is that if you create a squad with one man and exactly one weapon located in slot two (or greater), then that unit would not be able to fire. Maybe someone will test this hypothesis :)

In relation to the previous discussions, if someone armed him with "BAR x 3" in slot 1 then he would be a very scary fellow indeed.

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RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/23/2005 10:01:28 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
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From: Smyrna, Ga, 30080
Status: offline 		Interesting hypothesis. I'm going to try it out. Yes, a man with BARx3 would be well armed to say the least. I like that. I guess we'll have a place for John Wayne after all.

WB

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Post #: 12
RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/23/2005 10:10:31 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
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From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

I guess we'll have a place for John Wayne after all.

WB


Yes at The Alamo!!


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RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/23/2005 10:18:27 PM   
Wild Bill

 

Posts: 6821
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Status: offline 		No PIlgrim! Billy Bob replaced him...on second thought, nobody replaces the Duke. I retract that statement!

WB

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Post #: 14
RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/23/2005 10:35:38 PM   
Terminus


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Status: offline 		With all due respect, Colonel... You'd better!

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RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/23/2005 11:17:59 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Wild Bill

No PIlgrim! Billy Bob replaced him...on second thought, nobody replaces the Duke. I retract that statement!

WB




Billy Bobs Crockett was more true to the real man, than was Waynes portrayal.
But it is hard to replace The Duke


< Message edited by Alby -- 6/23/2005 11:18:56 PM >

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RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/23/2005 11:18:36 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
Joined: 4/29/2000
From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline 		oops double post

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RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/24/2005 5:28:22 AM   
steelpanther


Posts: 52
Joined: 3/5/2005
Status: offline 		ahh, maybe that is why my 1 crew member after bailing out of a tank will not fire. His weapon is in the second slot. Makes sense kinda but what if a 3 man inf unit is right next to a tank and the anti-tank weapon is in the 4th slot (or even grenades) why wouldnt they use that instead of shooting at it? Reality sucks.



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RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/28/2005 6:10:57 PM   
RockinHarry


Posts: 2963
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From: Germany
Status: offline 		Not to forget the experience and leader check for firing slot1 primary infantry weapon. I think only in very rare (unrealistic) circumstances a 10 men squad would all fire their 10 rifles at the same time! If that would happen then actually one shot should be subtracted from slot2 LMG (who should operate that when all 10 men are firing their rifles?) automatically, but with regard to the "abstraction" level in SPWAW (varying time slices of a whole 2-5 minute game turn) I guess it is not assumed that this works this way and shooting is not all at the same time, rather subsequently.

Re the fort class german Observation post. Don´t have an idea what this is meant to be modelled from. Fortifications are all the same anyway, but the Obs Post unit #211 definitely looks overarmed to me. It has no benefit for "observation" since there´s no formation having it as subunit in conjunction with the recon=1 special formation code.

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RE: Question about number of weapons per unit - 6/28/2005 6:31:52 PM   
Alby


Posts: 4855
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From: Greenwood, Indiana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RockinHarry

Not to forget the experience and leader check for firing slot1 primary infantry weapon. I think only in very rare (unrealistic) circumstances a 10 men squad would all fire their 10 rifles at the same time! If that would happen then actually one shot should be subtracted from slot2 LMG (who should operate that when all 10 men are firing their rifles?) automatically, but with regard to the "abstraction" level in SPWAW (varying time slices of a whole 2-5 minute game turn) I guess it is not assumed that this works this way and shooting is not all at the same time, rather subsequently.

Re the fort class german Observation post. Don´t have an idea what this is meant to be modelled from. Fortifications are all the same anyway, but the Obs Post unit #211 definitely looks overarmed to me. It has no benefit for "observation" since there´s no formation having it as subunit in conjunction with the recon=1 special formation code.


It does not have FO attributes either!
I changed the name of mine to Redoubt (also changed icon)


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