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RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/20/2005 10:13:20 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Same again with different conversion numbers.




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Post #: 91
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/20/2005 10:15:28 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		I can't get the pictures to appear in the posts the way I want. So it goes. Here is an example of jungle and mountain.




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< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 12/20/2005 10:30:21 PM >

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Post #: 92
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/20/2005 10:21:08 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Swamp




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Post #: 93
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/20/2005 10:29:02 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		More hexes on the screen.

We are intentionally using a rather muted background. The units have a wide range of vibrant colors and the screen would be too garrish if both the map and units had colors of intense hues.

But let me know what you think.

I expect to make the 12 basic terrain types available to the players for modification. After all, they are simply 136 by 152 pixel bitmaps in 24 bit color.




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Post #: 94
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/20/2005 10:38:16 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here the revised global map (first draft)




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Post #: 95
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/20/2005 11:40:19 PM   
buckyzoom

 

Posts: 69
Joined: 10/31/2005
Status: offline 		BEAUTIFUL!!!

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Post #: 96
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 12:30:19 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Here's Moscow at 200%. The conversion from .bmp to .jpg loses some of the finer detail. All of these screen shots filled just about the full screen. I have cropped some of them a bit.

You're beginning to be good at screenshots

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Post #: 97
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 12:32:48 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

Here the revised global map (first draft)

I like it very much, it looks like a real world map :-)
I must say that it is better than the old one !
Please, post some units now too

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Post #: 98
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 12:38:04 AM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		Nice to see the progress on the graphics, first impression is very good a few comments though.

The swamp terrain looks a little bit to much like clear, maybe throw in some purple or darker blue to distinguish it easier.

From a personal perspective I would like the mountain to be more grey than brown but that's just a matter of taste.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 99
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 12:38:41 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I can't get the pictures to appear in the posts the way I want. So it goes. Here is an example of jungle and mountain.


I must say that I do not like mountain hex very much. I'd prefer it to be more paper WiF like. Wow, when I saw them first (the WiF FE paper mountains), I found them ugly, but now I find them marvelously marvelous.

The WiF FE paper graphic has some patterns that look like valleys and escarpments. It is what I like on the Paper WiF FE mountains.

For the other hexes, I like them very much, they have the same feel as the WiF FE ones. Congratulations to you !

Could you also let us see how it is like on a screenshots with normal sized cities ? They are very small on these.

Anyway, thanks for the work

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Post #: 100
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 12:41:53 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

The swamp terrain looks a little bit to much like clear, maybe throw in some purple or darker blue to distinguish it easier.

I was just thinking that the the Swamps were very good. It is true that they are close to the clear terrain, but in WiF FE, they are too much close to the forest terrain

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Post #: 101
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 12:46:10 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		As a comparison, here is from were Steve began.





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RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 12:51:55 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		About the brightness of the colors (you were talking about this when writing "muted background", were you Steve ?), of the old CWiF maps compared to the new MWiF maps and both compared to the WiF FE paper maps (who are pinned to my office's wall), I'd say that the Paper ones are somewhere in the middle between the "muted background" of new MWiF Map and the brightness of the old CWiF map.
Maybe I would like the Clear hexes more clear (light) ? What do you think about it ?

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Post #: 103
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 2:58:59 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		This is definitely a work in progress. I am somewhat reluctant to show so many mistakes but I get the feeling that I should throw something out to those wolves that keep howling at my door.

Many Mistakes
You could view this as a contest. How many mistakes can you find in these pictures?

I doubt that you will see as many as I do. For example:

The artillery and AA icons are too small. They need to be made as large as the others.
The motorized unit icons should be moved 3 pixels to the right.
The units are registered wrong inside each hex and need to be moved 1 pixel to the left.
The white print units should have white icons with black print (as in WIFFE). What you see here is WIF circa 1995.

I want to change the little plane icons for the fighters (to single engine) and the ones for the subs.
I want to see if adding the names of the units rotated 90 degrees on the left side of the units, as done on the printed counters, will produce anything legible.
I want to make the division/corps/army designations a little stronger (bold font).

The air and naval units will be completely redone to look like WIFFE. However, this is pretty close to what you’ll get for the land units.

Current Versus CWIF beta

I have fixed the naval units so they show the range and movement factors in the same place as the printed counters.
I have increased the size of the icons for the land units.
I have rescaled all the unit depictions for the highest resolution (200%). CWIF started at 100% and then doubled the images to get 200%.
I have shoved the lower band of numbers for air and naval units closer to the bottom, leaving more room for the high resolution air and naval unit graphics in the center.

3 Unit Resolutions (for the new year?)

(1) “I will not put myself out of supply, ever again.”
(2) “I will not attack units bigger than myself.”
(3) “I will find some way to contribute to the war effort and not simply sit and watch the world go awry.”

My current plan is to have 3 different types of unit depictions: high res, medium res, and low res. What you see here is the medium res (more or less what CWIF used). For the high res, the center (roughly) of the air and naval units will be replaced with scanned images from the WIFFE counter sheets.

I want to create a very simple low res version for each unit type too. They will contain very little clutter - probably just a few numbers and an X for infantry, / for cavalry, and the like. My intent here is to enable the screen to be viewed at 50% resolution so a large swath of hexes can be seen at once while still enabling the player to (sort of) see what is in each hex. In CWIF the 50% resolution doesn’t provide anything legible.

With 3 different unit resolutions, the player can decide which unit resolution to use at which map resolution. It can be set to be automatic or adjusted whenever the player feels like it. I will handle this the same way the map resolution is done with a scroll bar at the top of the screen for setting the unit resolution.

By the way, how do you like the USSR setup? The German is equally brilliant.




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Post #: 104
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 3:01:08 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		I am still aggravated that I can't show you the pictures that I see. There is a 200KB limit for uploaded files that I keep running up against.




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Post #: 105
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 3:08:22 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

Nice to see the progress on the graphics, first impression is very good a few comments though.

The swamp terrain looks a little bit to much like clear, maybe throw in some purple or darker blue to distinguish it easier.

From a personal perspective I would like the mountain to be more grey than brown but that's just a matter of taste.


Swamp, Forest, and Jungle are always the problem. They each need a lot of green. We had Clear a paler color (less green) but then Ireland looked very dry. Perhaps more blue in the swamp though.

The gray mountains in WIF FE struck me as hideous when I fist saw them and I haven't changed my mind since. Perhaps a touch of gray though. I prefer a dark brown for mountains as being more in keeping with the overall color scheme for the map.

What do you-all think about the desert?

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 106
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 3:10:20 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Could you also let us see how it is like on a screenshots with normal sized cities ? They are very small on these.

Anyway, thanks for the work


All the map icons (cities, factories, etc.) have yet to be redone. The railroads too.

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Post #: 107
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 3:16:18 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

About the brightness of the colors (you were talking about this when writing "muted background", were you Steve ?), of the old CWiF maps compared to the new MWiF maps and both compared to the WiF FE paper maps (who are pinned to my office's wall), I'd say that the Paper ones are somewhere in the middle between the "muted background" of new MWiF Map and the brightness of the old CWiF map.
Maybe I would like the Clear hexes more clear (light) ? What do you think about it ?


A major difference between paper and screen is that paper reflects light while the screen produces it. High levels of brightness for colors on the screen can become neon-like if one isn't careful.

My general view here is that the map should not distract from the units. That is my main complaint about the mountain hexes in the paper map. They are more forceful than the counters.

The screen shots I have posted show counters from USSR and Germany, both of which have rather bland colors. CW, French, USA, China, and Japan have much more dramatic colors, to say nothing of the minor countries which reflect the entire spectrum of the rainbow.

_____________________________

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Post #: 108
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 4:46:31 AM   
pak19652002

 

Posts: 280
Joined: 1/2/2005
Status: offline 		I know a lot of you guys have played with or at least seen Manuel Ron's Cyberboard gamebox. To me, his maps are the best of any I've seen (with a few imperfections that have been discussed elsewhere). I know MWiF's can't be exactly the same, but aesthetically Manuel's product is very pleasing and faithful to the original.

What do you think? I'm going to try to embed a low res image for those unfamiliar with his work.

Peter




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Post #: 109
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 4:50:32 AM   
pak19652002

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I am still aggravated that I can't show you the pictures that I see. There is a 200KB limit for uploaded files that I keep running up against.




Steve:

Send me a higher res image and I'll post it to the online group. I forget what Yahoo!'s limit is but it's a lot bigger than 200K.

Peter

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Post #: 110
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 6:16:14 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		This kind of makes my point.

Faithful to the original paper map I agree. But aesthetically pleasing?

My eye is first drawn to the dark green of the forest and then splits its attention between the bright French units and checkerboard Clear terrain. The Mountains with the red country boundaries are also very strong visually. All the resource, partisan, factories, and control markers (flags) add confusion.

I want the fact that the British are engaged in an air war with the Germans to be the strongest visual element on this screen. That the French are isolated on the Maginot line should be the second thing the player notices. As it is, I only get to see those details by looking closely and blocking out all the other bright colors. I find it a relief to look at the North Sea.



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Post #: 111
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 6:17:46 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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Status: offline 		Thanks for the offer. Can you accept BMP? Or should I use JPG?

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 112
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 6:51:14 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Here's another try at getting a clearer picture. I never know what it will look like until after I post it. So I just cross my fingers and try differnt things.




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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 113
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 7:07:46 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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Status: offline 		I might have figured this out.




Nope. The clarity of the numbers drops off real fast when I show more hexes. The close in view in the post above this one is even a little fuzzy. The on screen image I get when playing is markedly crisper.

Sorry, I guess you'll just have to wait and buy the game.

Unless you are interesed in play testing? That should start in the first 3 months of 2006. Greyshaft has agreed to honcho it and we might as well start taking names of volunteers now.

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< Message edited by Shannon V. OKeets -- 12/21/2005 7:34:41 AM >

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RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 9:02:05 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

Unless you are interesed in play testing? That should start in the first 3 months of 2006. Greyshaft has agreed to honcho it and we might as well start taking names of volunteers now.

Please, take mine : Patrice. I volunteer !

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Post #: 115
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 11:18:18 AM   
Greyshaft


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Unless you are interesed in play testing? That should start in the first 3 months of 2006. Greyshaft has agreed to honcho it and we might as well start taking names of volunteers now.

General rejoicing and a display of fireworks in the evening!!!
Wait a bit... that's more work for me


_____________________________

/Greyshaft

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Post #: 116
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 11:37:39 AM   
pak19652002

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Thanks for the offer. Can you accept BMP? Or should I use JPG?


I know it takes JPG. Don't know about BMP.

Peter

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Post #: 117
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 5:38:11 PM   
WiFDaniel

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: France
Status: offline 		First, let time apologize if the following issue has been solved already. I am getting here much too late.

quote:

As I read my atlas (not the most detailed of its genre, I might add), the WIF map is incorrect in that it assigns mountain terrain to the hex due west of Singapore. Topolocically, that terrain is 200 to 500 meters - a bit of a stretch for calling it mountainous.


Usually, WiFFE hexes are designed to meet "real" geographical conditions. However, there are instances when game mechanics have driven decisions.

My Australian buddy told me an Australian hex (Brisbane, I think) become mountain terrain after Harry realized/decided no invasion was possible there. (there is indeed be a pretty strong notional unit in the hex now that it's mountain).

You may bear that in mind when deciding terrain.

quote:


Singapore itself is shown as a clear hex in MWIF and as jungle in WIF. In my opinion, MWIF is wrong and it should be jungle terrain. All of this is very uncertain in my mind.


This is especially difficult to tell since the Singapore terrain has dramatically changed over the last 60 years. I was there earlier this year and there is certainly nowhere anything that looks like jungle. However, I would tend to make it clear instead of jungle for the following reasons:

(1) Singapour is a tiny place. Really small. Making is jungle is giving a big combat boost to defender. Even if the place was covered with jungle it wouldn't deserve to be treated as difficult terrain for WiF-scale attacks.

(2) The key areas of Singapour were not covered with jungle back in 42. I am especially thinking of the urban/port installations as well as of the water tank, the fall of which signed the British surrender.

quote:

I think MWIF has it wrong in that Singapore's connection to the rest of the Malay peninsula is across two all sea hexsides. In my opinion, those two hexes should be contiguous to Singapore.


That's debatable. What is certain is that the CWiF map is correct in putting Singapore adjacent to 2 hexes on the Malayan Peninsula.

As the maps and Google Earth pictures show, the runway (ie the strait) should link Singapore and its NW hex (not the contrary), towards Kuala Lumpur.
Said runway is not a bridge (beware of misconceptions). No ship can physically sail East-West between Singapore and Malaya.

Singapore strait is quite wide, at least as wide as many of the rivers represented in the European maps. It is therefore a good defensive positions and this should be simulated, either as a strait or as a river.

quote:

The southwest connection from Singapore to Sumatra is across an all sea hexside.


Here the distance is considerably longer than between Singapore and Malaya. However, WiF has plenty of such strange straits here and there.

***

Again, let me apologize for wasting your reading time if this issue was settled long time ago.

Cheers,

Daniel


< Message edited by WiFDaniel -- 12/21/2005 5:39:29 PM >

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Post #: 118
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 6:02:52 PM   
WiFDaniel

 

Posts: 31
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: France
Status: offline 		OK, this is my shot at the "mistakes" game... Based on the magnified German army.

1. The XX, XXX, XXXX signs on top of NATO symbols add little to the game as it is. You should only have 2 of them to tell DIVs from CORPS.

2. 8-4 numbers are not properly centered with the MOT symbol.

3. The MOT symbol is a bit strange. I understand you put (crossed box+ 2 dots) the same size as, say, a MECH symbol. However, it catches the eye strange. You may consider using similar size boxes all over the board and add the "2 dots" underneath. This may force you to shift all counters' numbers down a little for readability.

4. The 3-3 ART symbol is not standard size. Numbers are not properly centered either.

5. There is no point in knowing a plane cost 2/3/4 except during production (and except for light AA shooting at 4-BPs planes, but that's an exception within an optional rule, so you shouldn't base the whole design on it). IMO, there are enough figures on the counters not to add some.

6. I would move all the plane numbers a little to the inside of the counters. There are all in the far corners of the counters, leaving large empty spaces. This applies to naval units too.

7. The "R" letters on the 8-4 MOT and the 9-6 MECH mean reserve units, right? Is there any use for them after war starts? It's not like Germany's gonna turn neutral again and you would have to remove them from the map... You may consider removing them.

8. I assume all flipped Russians units are black-print, right...?

9. As was said, it'd be nice to have actual pictures of the planes...

Please post more !

Cheers,

Daniel

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)
Post #: 119
RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 6:45:24 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WiFDaniel

OK, this is my shot at the "mistakes" game... Based on the magnified German army.

1. The XX, XXX, XXXX signs on top of NATO symbols add little to the game as it is. You should only have 2 of them to tell DIVs from CORPS.

2. 8-4 numbers are not properly centered with the MOT symbol.

3. The MOT symbol is a bit strange. I understand you put (crossed box+ 2 dots) the same size as, say, a MECH symbol. However, it catches the eye strange. You may consider using similar size boxes all over the board and add the "2 dots" underneath. This may force you to shift all counters' numbers down a little for readability.

4. The 3-3 ART symbol is not standard size. Numbers are not properly centered either.

5. There is no point in knowing a plane cost 2/3/4 except during production (and except for light AA shooting at 4-BPs planes, but that's an exception within an optional rule, so you shouldn't base the whole design on it). IMO, there are enough figures on the counters not to add some.

6. I would move all the plane numbers a little to the inside of the counters. There are all in the far corners of the counters, leaving large empty spaces. This applies to naval units too.

7. The "R" letters on the 8-4 MOT and the 9-6 MECH mean reserve units, right? Is there any use for them after war starts? It's not like Germany's gonna turn neutral again and you would have to remove them from the map... You may consider removing them.

8. I assume all flipped Russians units are black-print, right...?

9. As was said, it'd be nice to have actual pictures of the planes...

Please post more !

Cheers,

Daniel


I liked all your comments.

1. For high res I'll keep them as is. For medium res I'll follow your suggestion and go with XX and XXXX (the bigger difference is easier to read when things get small). For low res they disappear entirely.

2. Yeah - fixed.

3. No. I like the wheels for high and medium res. The whole icon was not centered properly (all fixed now). Yes, the motorized icons are smaller than the others. That matches the board game counters.

4. Yeah - fixed.

5. For high res see my replay to #6. For low res I am thinking of keeping either just a letter indicating plane type (i.e., F, T, S, N, or A) or just the numbers (e.g. air-to-air, etc.). I am open to recommendations. For medium res I am thinking of the numbers + the letter + 2/3/4. The cost of the air unit is important for knowing whether to risk it in combat and choosing enemy planes for destruction.

6. For high res the center of the planes will be completely replaced with the graphics (scanned) from the board game. I will redraw the numbers for the air units using software because, for text, True Type fonts give better images than rescaled bitmaps. This means that we start with the scanned images and superimpose the numbers. That also lets me (or the player) change the values for any of the air units (all units, actually) in a CSV (comma separated values) file before starting a game.

7. While the R is irrelevant in many cases there are times when it is important (e.g., USSR at war with Japan and not Germany). I want this to be consistent throughout the game. Losing the R at medium and low res is good though.

8. The Russians in the picture aren't disrupted. What you are seeing is the effect of the fog-of-war optional rule. Disrupted units are not flipped, instead one of the little boxes at the top of the unit is colored in to denore its disrupted status. The boxes also indicate whether the unit is in supply, has moved already during the impulse, can not move during the impulse, has yet to move during the impulse, has been ordered to attack, etc..

9. Yeah - after the artist gets the map mostly done I'll have him work on the units. I already have a full list of exactly which units need to be taken from the counter sheets. We are using all the counter sheets except 26-28 (America in Flames) and 31-35 (Patton in Flames). I used the verb 'scanned' earlier. That wasn't correct. Rob has the actual computer files for the map and counter sheet graphics from ADG. We will be using those as bitmaps with 96 by 96 pixel resolution.

All comments are eagerly read by me. I don't want to develop the game in isolation and then be surprised that people dislike something about it. However, people are going to dislike things, I can't help that (Lincoln had some comments on this topic). I just don't want to be surprised by them after the game is released.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to WiFDaniel)
Post #: 120
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