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RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 6:56:24 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Singapore

One of the problems is that a hex covers a lot of ground. In MWIF the hex for Singapore actually is much larger than the island of Singapore itself and should be viewed as including parts of the mainland penisula north of it. The hex and hexside terrain try to capture the various elements of both the island and the portion of the penisula that are in the hex. This is why it is jungle (penisula terrain rather than island terrain). The all sea hexside is a clearly a fudge, meant to show that a major water barrier separates the city from the mainland and combat troops would have to cross it to get into the city.

The whole map is just a continuous roiling mass of compromises - all maps are. I try to ignore as many of the inconsistencies as possible or I would spend my entire time tweaking terrain. Instead, I am going with what ADG did for the European map and keeping the rest of the world as faithful to the WIF FE game maps as I can. The change in scale means I have to revisit some important hexes (e.g., Singapore) but I do so with only the greatest reluctance. I won't see any money until after this game is released - my wife keeps mentioning that.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 121

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 7:01:24 PM

mlees

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From: San Diego
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In your screenshots of the maps (eg post #114), the "dots" that indicate a city/port on the map seem kinda small to me...

Remember, not everyone who buys this game is gonna be 20 years old with 20/15 vision.

As a duly self-designated representative of the "grouchiest" generation, I humbly request a slight upsizing of these "dots".

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 122

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 7:04:16 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

In your screenshots of the maps (eg post #114), the "dots" that indicate a city/port on the map seem kinda small to me...

Remember, not everyone who buys this game is gonna be 20 years old with 20/15 vision.

As a duly self-designated representative of the "grouchiest" generation, I humbly request a slight upsizing of these "dots".

All map icons are the wrong size, the rivers and railroads are a disaster too. See my disclaimer on the first screen shot.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 123

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 7:23:12 PM

mlees

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Hummp. Disclaimer? You want someone with poor eyesight (and spotty attention span) to see a disclaimer?

May I request that you move your disclaimers closer to the hex sides, as they are hard to see...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 124

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 8:01:34 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Post #89

quote:

Making good progress on the maps. Here are some screen shots of the 12 terrain types using 136 x 152 pixel hexes in 24 bit color.

I have recoded the program to accept the increase in size and colors while retaining the zooming capability of CWIF. That means that the hexes can be zoomed to be 12 by 17, 24 by 34, 36 by 51, and on up to 136 by 152. The smallest is labeled 25% resolution and the largest 200% resolution. I expect most people to play at 100% or 125%.

A full screen refresh on my system (2.53 GHz, 1GB main memory, Windows XP) takes about 1/10 second - faster than a key click. The screen refresh starts on key press down and it finishes it before I can get to key press up. There is a delay of a couple of seconds when doing a refresh at 25% resolution (all of Europe from the British Isles to the Urals - Stockholm to Alexandria), but less than 1/2 second at 50%. All the others are blazing fast.

The map coastlines are under development so the screen shots here do not show any coastlines. The rivers will also be redone. Same for cities, factories, alpine hex sides, etc..

I have almost completed redoing the counters at 96 by 96 pixels (up from 48 by 48). I will post more information on their redesign with some screen shots later this week.

Post #104

quote:

This is definitely a work in progress. I am somewhat reluctant to show so many mistakes but I get the feeling that I should throw something out to those wolves that keep howling at my door.

Many Mistakes
You could view this as a contest. How many mistakes can you find in these pictures?

I tend to throw in other comments with each post and work under the general (though often wrong) assumption that readers have read recent posts (roughly the last 48 hours).

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Post #: 125

RE: Asia maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 8:32:26 PM

Cheesehead

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From: Appleton, Wisconsin
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Hey Steve,

Could you throw us another bone and show us a screenshot of China? This is where many of us are interested/concerned about MWiF, as it will be the biggest departure from paper and cardboard WiF. I have always supported your plan to go ahead and unify the map scale for MWiF, but I'd like a peek at how it looks, if its not too much trouble.

Thanks

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Post #: 126

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/21/2005 8:41:22 PM

mlees

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Thanks for repeating your posts, sir. I can now see the remarks regarding the city/factories/hex sides issue.

My post #124 was done with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Please forgive. I did not intend to accuse you of lying, I had no doubt that you did indeed make the disclaimer that you claimed you did.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 127

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/22/2005 12:12:25 AM

c92nichj

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

Nice to see the progress on the graphics, first impression is very good a few comments though.

The swamp terrain looks a little bit to much like clear, maybe throw in some purple or darker blue to distinguish it easier.

From a personal perspective I would like the mountain to be more grey than brown but that's just a matter of taste.

Swamp, Forest, and Jungle are always the problem. They each need a lot of green. We had Clear a paler color (less green) but then Ireland looked very dry. Perhaps more blue in the swamp though.

The gray mountains in WIF FE struck me as hideous when I fist saw them and I haven't changed my mind since. Perhaps a touch of gray though. I prefer a dark brown for mountains as being more in keeping with the overall color scheme for the map.

What do you-all think about the desert?

I like the desert looks great, but I am not sure about desert mountian.

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Post #: 128

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/22/2005 12:21:51 AM

c92nichj

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quote:

Unless you are interesed in play testing? That should start in the first 3 months of 2006. Greyshaft has agreed to honcho it and we might as well start taking names of volunteers now.

Please take my name as well: Nicklas. I allready signed the agreement with Matrix

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 129

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/22/2005 3:30:19 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

Thanks for repeating your posts, sir. I can now see the remarks regarding the city/factories/hex sides issue.

My post #124 was done with tongue planted firmly in cheek. Please forgive. I did not intend to accuse you of lying, I had no doubt that you did indeed make the disclaimer that you claimed you did.

Don't worry about my sensitivities. I taught 7-9 grade math in South Philly for a couple of years. My first day there one of my students walked up to me and said: "You sure do dress funny." I also play a lot of golf and program - every time I hit a golf ball I receive a lot of negative feedback. Compilers list my many imperfections daily. Anyway, we all have the same goal here, a great translation of WIF to the computer - as soon as possible.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 130

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/22/2005 3:32:54 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
I like the desert looks great, but I am not sure about desert mountian.

I am surprised you have concerns about the desert mountain. It is a merging of desert and mountain. Hmmm, maybe you don't like the mountain either - you might have said that earlier, somebody complained about it.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 131

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/22/2005 3:35:10 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

quote:

Unless you are interesed in play testing? That should start in the first 3 months of 2006. Greyshaft has agreed to honcho it and we might as well start taking names of volunteers now.

Please take my name as well: Nicklas. I allready signed the agreement with Matrix

You should post to the thread Greyshaft set up for beta testers (if you haven't already). That way your name won't get lost. We have set up a separate FTP site for beta testing, so large files can be uploaded and downloaded.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 132

RE: Asia maps for MWIF - 12/22/2005 5:34:41 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cheesehead
Hey Steve,

Could you throw us another bone and show us a screenshot of China? This is where many of us are interested/concerned about MWiF, as it will be the biggest departure from paper and cardboard WiF. I have always supported your plan to go ahead and unify the map scale for MWiF, but I'd like a peek at how it looks, if its not too much trouble.

Thanks

Not yet. China needs the railroads and cities clearly visible in order to assess the "China Issue". When I have them looking respectable - sure. You may have to remind me. I do not mind being nagged at all; it has little or no effect on my personality.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Cheesehead)

Post #: 133

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/22/2005 5:37:32 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pak19652002

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Thanks for the offer. Can you accept BMP? Or should I use JPG?

I know it takes JPG. Don't know about BMP.

Peter

Let's hold off on this for a week or so. I expect to have a nice coastline of the British Isles by then. "I do so hate being seen in public improperly attired." Remind me when you see me post the British Isles graphic here (just in case I forget).

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 134

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 12:45:07 AM

c92nichj

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
I like the desert looks great, but I am not sure about desert mountian.

I am surprised you have concerns about the desert mountain. It is a merging of desert and mountain. Hmmm, maybe you don't like the mountain either - you might have said that earlier, somebody complained about it.

Taking a second look at things maybe I confused desert mountain with depression.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 135

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 5:49:29 AM

pak19652002

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Roger Wilco.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: pak19652002

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

Thanks for the offer. Can you accept BMP? Or should I use JPG?

I know it takes JPG. Don't know about BMP.

Peter

Let's hold off on this for a week or so. I expect to have a nice coastline of the British Isles by then. "I do so hate being seen in public improperly attired." Remind me when you see me post the British Isles graphic here (just in case I forget).

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 136

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 6:12:46 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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I have put making some changes to the counter graphics. Herre are some samples.

Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 137

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 6:14:26 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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There is still some distortion converting from bitmap to CorelDraw and then more when converted to jpg

Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 138

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 6:15:16 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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In the previous post you can see that teh M is not quite centered for the militia.

I have added names for the units and the previous post shows both a supply unit and a synthetic oil counter.

Attachment (1)

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 139

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 6:18:49 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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Montgomery seems to be the longest name (I could say something here about that, but I won't).

The names are all done in black, which doesn't work so well for the Belgians you see here (or for the SS units). I'll fix that next.

The bombers and naval air units have there numbers all pushed off to the side to allow room for the scanned images from the board game counters. The labels (F2, etc. are tempoarary place holders).

Attachment (1)

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 140

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 6:31:52 AM

Glen Felzien

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First off, I have been lurking here for some time and just need to say, thank goodness no "brain terrain"! (Grey mountain graphics).

Now a little request if doable, could the counters have their corners clipped (rounded) even if just slightly? It adds such a fine finished touch to the cardboard counters. Anglo German War is using a clipped counter and it looks very smart. Otherwise I think the direction you are goin in with the graphics is very good. I agree that the aircraft graphic could use a touch up.

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Post #: 141

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 6:48:11 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Glen Felzien

First off, I have been lurking here for some time and just need to say, thank goodness no "brain terrain"! (Grey mountain graphics).

Now a little request if doable, could the counters have their corners clipped (rounded) even if just slightly? It adds such a fine finished touch to the cardboard counters. Anglo German War is using a clipped counter and it looks very smart. Otherwise I think the direction you are goin in with the graphics is very good. I agree that the aircraft graphic could use a touch up.

The status bars across the top are quite important to game play (disrupted units, out of supply units, ...). Clipping them would make the ones on the ends look different from the others. Clipping just the bottom corners might look weird. I'll explore what it looks like on my own.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Glen Felzien)

Post #: 142

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 6:55:10 AM

Glen Felzien

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From: Swan Hills, Alberta, CDN
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quote:

The status bars across the top are quite important to game play (disrupted units, out of supply units, ...).

Ah yes. Good point.

quote:

Clipping just the bottom corners might look weird.

hehe good point lol

quote:

I'll explore what it looks like on my own.

Thanks

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Post #: 143

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 9:50:23 AM

pak19652002

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I kinda like the brain terrain.

I get the feeling I'm the only guy here who likes the (paper) board as it is.

Admittedly, my credentials are suspect, that's for sure, being color blind and all...

But, I can see light and dark and I think the background looks a little, well, dare I say drab.

Peter

P.S. Please don't hammer me too badly.

(in reply to Glen Felzien)

Post #: 144

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 10:34:31 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pak19652002

I kinda like the brain terrain.

I get the feeling I'm the only guy here who likes the (paper) board as it is.

Admittedly, my credentials are suspect, that's for sure, being color blind and all...

But, I can see light and dark and I think the background looks a little, well, dare I say drab.

Peter

P.S. Please don't hammer me too badly.

Actually, that was our intent. A snazzy map with bright colors might look neato-keen when first viewed but all the sparkle gets in the way of game play.

If you look at the four maps I posted earlier today (admittedly the units overwell the screens) you will see a lot of strong colors with high contrast. The units are much more noticeable than the terrain they sit in. And I believe that is how it should be when you want to assess a position and figure out which units to move where. The first focus should be on the units.

Of course the map terrain has to be easily identifiable, so if the terrain types look too much alike, I would like to know that. A lot of this is subjective and I am interested in learning other people's opinions. However, I have a long personal history of hearing someone say something I don't immediately agree with, and so I say nothing. And then a few weeks later, or a month, or a year, I'll reply "yeah, you're right". Oftentimes people even forget what they said in the interim. It's just that it can take me a while before I see the light (hear the music - smell the roses - whatever).

I have made many changes to this game already based on feedback from forum members. Postings have also persuaded me to go in one direction rather than another on even more occasions. The catch is that you have to actually post your comments. My psychic abilities have always been abysmal.

So, thanks for your critique. It goes into the mix of things to consider when we next review the terrain bitmaps. By the way, Froonp likes the paper map depiction of the mountains too.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 145

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 10:35:48 AM

Froonp

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Waaaaouuuuuu !!

I LOVE the fact that there are the designation on the counters !!!!
It was terribly missing from CWiF, especially in China where you were always asking yourself if the Militia you were risking to loose were the one from Shanghai or the one from Kunming. Because you usually agree to loose the latter (being re buildable) and are very reluctant to loose the former (beause usually you can't rebuilt it).

Now, for a more "perfect" visual effect, I'd love if the counters had some 3d aspect. I would like them to seem to have a width, even a small one, as cardboard counters have. Do you understand ?

Cheers !!!

< Message edited by Froonp -- 12/23/2005 10:49:07 AM >

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Post #: 146

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 10:41:52 AM

Froonp

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quote:

The bombers and naval air units have there numbers all pushed off to the side to allow room for the scanned images from the board game counters. The labels (F2, etc. are tempoarary place holders).

About the names, for the Naval & Aircraft counters, will the name come from the "scanned" picture of the WiF CS, or will it be "written" as the land counters have their name written ?

I hope the name will be on the counter, it is way much better with the name on the counter !!!!!!

And about the "scanned" picture for the naval & aircraft counters, you mean that the little picture for each counter will be taken from the original ADG counter file, and displayed in the center of each MWiF counter ? Could you show us just an example ?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 147

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 10:45:40 AM

Froonp

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Also, in WiF, the background of the box of the MAR units is pale green for all countries.
The PARA units' box background is pale blue also.
And the White print units' box background is white.
The ART (Field, AA, AT, etc...) box background is pale blue.

Will you implement that too ?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 148

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 10:48:17 AM

Froonp

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quote:

I kinda like the brain terrain.

I get the feeling I'm the only guy here who likes the (paper) board as it is.

I love the "brain terrain" too.
It gives the impression of valleys running all around in the mountains, which is what mountains look like from the skies. Look at Google Earth.

(in reply to pak19652002)

Post #: 149

RE: Maps for MWIF - 12/23/2005 10:58:29 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Now, for a more "perfect" visual effect, I'd love if the counters had some 3d aspect. I would like them to seem to have a width, even a small one, as cardboard counters have. Do you understand ?

Cheers !!!

I can try adding some shadowing but there isn't much room.

If you look at the post with the Chinese units you will see one hex that has 2 units in it. The rules let you stack an unlimited number of naval units in a hex and even using just land and air units it's possible to get quite a few (oil resources, supply units). The depiction of a hex on the map shows status bars for up to the top 4 units in a hex. If you look at the Chinese stack you will see a separate status bar for the second unit. Only the first status bar is the full height, the others are half that height. This lets you know if the second unit is disrupted / hasn't moved / or any of the other bits of information on the unit that status boxes convey - without having to paw through each stack. The top 4 units is usually enough in land combat situations. And there isn't room for any more!

I do not want to steal pixels from the edge of the existing counters for shadowing. I am already squeezing the amount of white space in the counters beyond what I am comfortable with. The more white space, the less congestion, and the easier it is to read the numbers and the letters at a glance. So to add shadowing, I can try to place 2 more lines of pixels to the right and below the counters. I'll see what that looks like.

Chris tried shadowing for the map labels (city and country names) and I thought they looked pretty good at first. After a while I grew less enamored of them. Chris said at least one play tester complained that it made the names harder to read. So shadowing has a mixed history already.

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Steve

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(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 150