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I just don't understand land combat - 12/25/2005 2:08:25 PM

GaryChildress

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It just looks to me like the attack below would have generated something better than 0 to 1 odds.

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/25/2005 2:10:48 PM

Terminus

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Heh! In my current WPO game vs. Bill Durrant, I've generated 0 to 1 odds in Manilla something like twenty times, even though I outnumber him by about three to one. The game also factors in disruption, fatigue, supplies, terrain, fortification, etc...

Still, ground combat isn't WitP's strong side.

< Message edited by Terminus -- 12/25/2005 3:11:09 PM >

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/25/2005 2:58:56 PM

2Stepper

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I agree with you 100% Terminus. It DOES work, but not what you might consider "perfectly". They went to great lengths to make it less of a hexmap, counters wargame (though some elements of those linger) and more into the logistics. If you're well supplied and fortified in a tough terrain area, you can hold out for a LONG, LONG time.

History is full of facts like that. What gets tough to stomach is when those ratios stay the same and 45K men can hold out in a 6 level fort against 210K men. Again, I admit history does have examples of such stands, but they didn't have 88mm cannon and tanks then either...

Whats my point? We're left with a decent system that often times leaves you guessing about how to fight land battles... Good thing or bad thing? Everyone is bound to have a different view. Guess it depends which business end of those "odds" your fighting from.

Just my 2 cents..

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/25/2005 5:49:15 PM

Captain Ed

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Good reply. Now can anyone tell me if engineer units will help in a non base combat. Hate to squander them in battle if they will not help in a non-base hex I know that units in a non-base hex will build fortifcation`s will the engineers help reduce those.

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 12:11:57 AM

tsimmonds

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quote:

It just looks to me like the attack below would have generated something better than 0 to 1 odds.

Factors other than numbers and fortifications that affect adjusted assault value:

preparation
disruption
fatigue
morale
experience
supply
leaders
headquarters
terrain
...

Most of the items on that list are capable of halving or even quartering your assault value, cumulatively. You get very many of them going against you, and you can forget all about making headway on the ground.

< Message edited by irrelevant -- 12/26/2005 12:12:15 AM >

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 12:49:26 AM

mogami

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Hi, It is very important in land combat that the units involved be in range of their HQ. (can alter a 6-1 to 0-1 ) This works when you are the outnumbered party. Being prepared for combat in the hex it occurs changes the combat value by 100 percent. (100k not ready fight like 50k and 50k 100 percent ready fight like 100k) Supply levels alter the ratios. Leaderships and then the normal factors like disruption, fatigue, morale and experiance. In the end raw troop numbers matter less then many players suppose.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 12/26/2005 12:50:13 AM >

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 3:00:40 AM

kkoovvoo

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From: Slovakia
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Gary,
I believe the main problem is you have less vehicles (and another one was destroyed in this combat).

(in reply to GaryChildress)

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 3:52:01 AM

Skyros

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Looks like a staff officer or WO was in charge.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

It just looks to me like the attack below would have generated something better than 0 to 1 odds.

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 4:41:57 AM

Knavey

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From: Valrico, Florida
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What are the real assault values of that attack?

That screenie you posted has exactly ZERO useful info. Most players think that particular screen has info but it is the most misleading screen out there.

You need to watch the entire combat replay and look at the last couple of screens. They have the REAL results of your combat, and from those you can deduce what is really going on.

Look at the Ajusted Assault Value at the end of the replay for your units and also of the enemies. Just because you have 1000 assault points showing on the info screen, doesn't mean it's there during the assault. You might really be at 300 points, and your opponents may be quite higher than what you believe his to be which would give you the 0-1 odds result but still show misleading results on the screenie you posted. The only way to know for sure is to watch the combat replay.

I will see if I can find some "examples" to post.

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 5:08:13 AM

Knavey

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From: Valrico, Florida
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Take a look at this screenie below.

It occurs during a Japanese Deliberate Assault just southeast of Wuchow in a wooded hex. The screenie is of the Adjusted Japanese Assault value. Typical Japanese Divisions run at an assault value of 800ish and yet these are only assaulting with 200-250. The best IJA divisions are only in the 300 range.

Attacking force 183162 troops, 1511 guns, 426 vehicles

Defending force 135109 triips, 486 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese assault odds: 0 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
6696 casualties reported
Guns lost 126
Vehicles lost 17

Allied ground losses:
1320 casualties reported
Guns lost 28

In theory looking at this he should have 1:1 odds based on 7 IJA division @ 800 = 5600 points vs. 16 CHINF corps @250 = 4000. But you can see his divisions are not doing very well (some of the CHINF corps are in bad shape also) and his armor is almost completely depleted.

I will post a series of screenies I took during the month of May and if you look closely, you can see how hard his troops are taking it during the series of assaults.

5/3/42

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Knavey -- 12/26/2005 5:23:39 AM >

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 5:18:00 AM

Knavey

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His next assault was 3 days later on the 6th. Even though he thinks he is assaulting with armor support, they didn't even show up this time probably due to being overworked last time. Look at their assault value on this screen...ZERO! His divisions are not faring very well either. I do not have my notebook with me that has the CHINF assault values, but here are the combat results.

Attacking force 172147 troops, 1363 guns, 407 vehicles

Defending force 133458 troops, 445 guns, 0 vehicles

Japanese Assault odds: 0 to 1

Japanese ground losses:
2505 casualties reported
Guns lost 73
Vehicles lost 13

Allied ground losses:
753 casualties reported
Guns lost 22

Again, severely outnumbered in guns and vehicles the CHINF handed out a beating because my opponent is not watching his troops as closely as he should.

05/06/42

Attachment (1)

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 5:20:51 AM

Knavey

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And two days later...yet ANOTHER assault!

05/08/42

Attachment (1)

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 5:23:26 AM

Knavey

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Notice how in the last two assaults his Ajusted Assault value has gone from 2000 down to 800 and is still dropping. R&R, a change of commander, more troops, or something is in order in this assault above.

Hope this shows you guys something to look at during your ground combat. Instead of just hitting ESC, look at the USEFUL stuff and ignore that last popup screen. It is only misleading.

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 5:27:36 AM

Cpt Sherwood

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And just in the heck is this information not provided without having to watch the entire assault and then try and catch the last two screens? One more instance of really bad design decisions.

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 6:04:29 AM

kaleun

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I guess I should start watching the combat replays

and not just reading the combat reports.

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 6:36:25 AM

Feinder

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LCU combat is (unfortunately) :
a. one of the most important aspects of the game
b. one of the least understood aspects of the game
c. the least known, that it is misunderstood, aspect of the game (if you take my meaning).

LCU combat is -gravely- imporant. Can be more so than even sinking enemy CV. (yep). Take a look at the point losses in any campaign '41 game. The single highest point gainer for Japan is thru LCU casualties. While I think the vp weight for losses is far too high, the game is what it is. And you MUST realize how important ground combat is, because Allied ground combat losses are the single greatest contributer to the Japanese total.

Most folks never sit thru the replay to gather that single most impornt tid-bit of info - the adjusted odds. Yes, it's stupid that it's not available. But until that gets patched in, you -do- have to sit thru the animation. Granted you don't have to watch all the animations. But if the battle is important to you, you had better force yoursef to watch it.

-F-

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 8:35:01 AM

tabpub

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quote:

But if the battle is important to you, you had better force yoursef to watch it.

What I do now, is setup the digital camera on video in front of the screen; start it running before the combat and go off to do whatever (make a sandwich, do my necessaries, laundry, etc.). Then I can come back and rewind it to the part that gives the assualt values. Only need to do it on the big fights, but, those are the most important ones after all....

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There's smoke in the cockpit and gray in my hair.
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But, brother, we're TOO God damn low...

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 9:00:06 AM

kaleun

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Now that is a professional setup

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 6:06:42 PM

Captain Ed

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From: Victoria BC
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Isn`t this why we have spouses to keep us fed and looking after our needs so we can take the fight to the enemy. Kinda like having a logistics officer on staff.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tabpub

quote:

But if the battle is important to you, you had better force yoursef to watch it.

What I do now, is setup the digital camera on video in front of the screen; start it running before the combat and go off to do whatever (make a sandwich, do my necessaries, laundry, etc.). Then I can come back and rewind it to the part that gives the assualt values. Only need to do it on the big fights, but, those are the most important ones after all....

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THE SECOND DAY IS EASY CAUSE YOU QUIT

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 8:01:16 PM

ADavidB

Posts: 2464
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From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

LCU combat is (unfortunately) :
a. one of the most important aspects of the game
b. one of the least understood aspects of the game
c. the least known, that it is misunderstood, aspect of the game (if you take my meaning).

LCU combat is -gravely- imporant. Can be more so than even sinking enemy CV. (yep). Take a look at the point losses in any campaign '41 game. The single highest point gainer for Japan is thru LCU casualties. While I think the vp weight for losses is far too high, the game is what it is. And you MUST realize how important ground combat is, because Allied ground combat losses are the single greatest contributer to the Japanese total.

Most folks never sit thru the replay to gather that single most impornt tid-bit of info - the adjusted odds. Yes, it's stupid that it's not available. But until that gets patched in, you -do- have to sit thru the animation. Granted you don't have to watch all the animations. But if the battle is important to you, you had better force yoursef to watch it.

-F-

And with the current design of the game, the most important thing to remember about ground combat is to avoid it at all costs if you do not have an overwhelming local advantage in troops, experience, morale, supplies, leaders, disruption, etc, etc, etc....

That's why, for the Allies in the first year or so of a full campaign game, it is so critical to pull back as much as possible to areas that have a hope of being defended, rather than trying wasteful "do or die" stands which inevitably end up as "do and die"...

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to Feinder)

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 8:04:27 PM

WLockard

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

LCU combat is (unfortunately) :
a. one of the most important aspects of the game
b. one of the least understood aspects of the game
c. the least known, that it is misunderstood, aspect of the game (if you take my meaning).

LCU combat is -gravely- imporant. Can be more so than even sinking enemy CV. (yep). Take a look at the point losses in any campaign '41 game. The single highest point gainer for Japan is thru LCU casualties. While I think the vp weight for losses is far too high, the game is what it is. And you MUST realize how important ground combat is, because Allied ground combat losses are the single greatest contributer to the Japanese total.

Most folks never sit thru the replay to gather that single most impornt tid-bit of info - the adjusted odds. Yes, it's stupid that it's not available. But until that gets patched in, you -do- have to sit thru the animation. Granted you don't have to watch all the animations. But if the battle is important to you, you had better force yoursef to watch it.

-F-

And with the current design of the game, the most important thing to remember about ground combat is to avoid it at all costs if you do not have an overwhelming local advantage in troops, experience, morale, supplies, leaders, disruption, etc, etc, etc....

That's why, for the Allies in the first year or so of a full campaign game, it is so critical to pull back as much as possible to areas that have a hope of being defended, rather than trying wasteful "do or die" stands which inevitably end up as "do and die"...

Dave Baranyi

More like "Don't and Die" From what I have seen, the Allies just give up most of the time.

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/26/2005 8:21:42 PM

ADavidB

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From: Toronto, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WLockard

quote:

ORIGINAL: ADavidB

quote:

ORIGINAL: Feinder

LCU combat is (unfortunately) :
a. one of the most important aspects of the game
b. one of the least understood aspects of the game
c. the least known, that it is misunderstood, aspect of the game (if you take my meaning).

LCU combat is -gravely- imporant. Can be more so than even sinking enemy CV. (yep). Take a look at the point losses in any campaign '41 game. The single highest point gainer for Japan is thru LCU casualties. While I think the vp weight for losses is far too high, the game is what it is. And you MUST realize how important ground combat is, because Allied ground combat losses are the single greatest contributer to the Japanese total.

Most folks never sit thru the replay to gather that single most impornt tid-bit of info - the adjusted odds. Yes, it's stupid that it's not available. But until that gets patched in, you -do- have to sit thru the animation. Granted you don't have to watch all the animations. But if the battle is important to you, you had better force yoursef to watch it.

-F-

And with the current design of the game, the most important thing to remember about ground combat is to avoid it at all costs if you do not have an overwhelming local advantage in troops, experience, morale, supplies, leaders, disruption, etc, etc, etc....

That's why, for the Allies in the first year or so of a full campaign game, it is so critical to pull back as much as possible to areas that have a hope of being defended, rather than trying wasteful "do or die" stands which inevitably end up as "do and die"...

Dave Baranyi

More like "Don't and Die" From what I have seen, the Allies just give up most of the time.

There are ways to get Allied land forces to fight better:

- Change their leaders to good leaders, particularly the HQ leaders
- Fortify, fortify, fortify - don't build up any port or airfield that you might lose
- Don't waste supply points trying to repair aircraft in the combat zones - bring your aircraft to backwater bases so that they can be easily supplied
- Don't waste supply points by allowing trapped units to get replacements or upgrades
- Retreat just before you think that you will lose a forward base - defeated units are useless units. Retreating units move faster and fight better
- Don't move good new units to deathtraps (Islands/atolls) where they can be outnumbered 3 or more to 1 with no retreat hex!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- Don't leave good units where they can be bombarded from the sea without being able to shoot back at Japanese BBs
- Fight for bases that provide you supply - abandon bases that don't
- Pull out units that get good replacements, abandon units that don't
- Leave a HQ in the "stack" to absorb bombardment attacks - don't let it get reinforcements
- Change your good leaders for your worst leaders just before you think that your troops will surrender
- Attack your opponent's troops ships over any other enemy ships - drowned troops don't attack

Good luck -

Dave Baranyi

(in reply to WLockard)

Post #: 22

RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/27/2005 4:07:06 AM

shoevarek

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Mogami:

quote:

Hi, It is very important in land combat that the units involved be in range of their HQ. (can alter a 6-1 to 0-1 ) This works when you are the outnumbered party. Being prepared for combat in the hex it occurs changes the combat value by 100 percent. (100k not ready fight like 50k and 50k 100 percent ready fight like 100k) Supply levels alter the ratios. Leaderships and then the normal factors like disruption, fatigue, morale and experiance. In the end raw troop numbers matter less then many players suppose.

This design choice seems to backfire.
1) In current system it is really hard to check if combat unit is still in the range of its army or corps HQ.
2) Independent HQ units have too much impact on the combat results. In current game I had entire JA brigade fighting with the surrounded chineese unit for months - the unit was an HQ with no supplies at all. Even achieving 6-1 ratio my unit suffered huge losses for no gains. In other pocket I have 50000 Chinese with no supplies at all (no forts too) but my force of 200000 can do nothing. I achieve more than 4-1 combat ratios and on attack get 5000 casaulties for their 1000. I have more supplies, more experience, more guns, but AI has more HQ units. This happens in CHS mode but I think HQ unit effect (I assume it is caused by HQ) is the same in stock scenarios.

I think independent HQ units should add small combat modifier but this should not be stacked - for example beeing in the range of single HQ should have same effect as beeing in the range of multiple HQs (of cause I do not consider here differences in HQ leader modifiers) - he closest HQ should take precedense. Each combat unit has its own internal HQ and this should be enough to carry on effective combat.

< Message edited by shoevarek -- 12/27/2005 4:08:53 AM >

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Post #: 23

RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/27/2005 5:01:22 AM

mogami

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Hi, The poor game catches if from both directions. People say it is too fast but when 50,000 troops don't just all die in one day the system is also questioned.
If you have 200,000 versus 50,000 I'm willing to bet your not actually losing 5,000 for 1000 (your getting disabled while Chinese are getting killed)
In the combat report troops who disabled are listed as casualties but they return to combat status in a day or two (if you have supply)
Out of supply units cannot recover
It takes a while to kill 50,000 troops even when they are out of supply and out numbered 4 to 1. Certain units don't surrender easy and Chinese in the countryside are among the hardest to kill.

< Message edited by Mogami -- 12/27/2005 5:02:19 AM >

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RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/27/2005 11:33:38 AM

Oleg Mastruko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: tabpub
What I do now, is setup the digital camera on video in front of the screen; start it running before the combat and go off to do whatever (make a sandwich, do my necessaries, laundry, etc.). Then I can come back and rewind it to the part that gives the assualt values. Only need to do it on the big fights, but, those are the most important ones after all....

LOL! This is great but I have better solution - similar to yours but does not involve external camera. I found free screen capturing application that captures everything that happens on the screen in AVI movie file. I start WITP in window and start the applet. Later on I have 600+ MB AVI file to analyse - JUST to find what the adjusted assault values are!

It is so very funny to see what lengths we WITP fans are prepared to go to enjoy the game

O.

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Post #: 25

RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/27/2005 1:54:13 PM

Cpt Sherwood

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Oleg, could you tell us what program you are using?

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Post #: 26

RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/27/2005 2:02:21 PM

Sardaukar

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From: Finland/Israel
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What I don't understand is why the combat is in I-GO/U-GO format when it's happening in same hex. More logical would be to resolve the combat in one phase (WE-GO) with both sides' actions compared and resolved. But I guess it's not GG-style...

(in reply to Cpt Sherwood)

Post #: 27

RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/27/2005 3:16:20 PM

Apollo11

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From: Zagreb, Croatia
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Hi all,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

quote:

ORIGINAL: tabpub
What I do now, is setup the digital camera on video in front of the screen; start it running before the combat and go off to do whatever (make a sandwich, do my necessaries, laundry, etc.). Then I can come back and rewind it to the part that gives the assualt values. Only need to do it on the big fights, but, those are the most important ones after all....

LOL! This is great but I have better solution - similar to yours but does not involve external camera. I found free screen capturing application that captures everything that happens on the screen in AVI movie file. I start WITP in window and start the applet. Later on I have 600+ MB AVI file to analyse - JUST to find what the adjusted assault values are!

It is so very funny to see what lengths we WITP fans are prepared to go to enjoy the game

O.

For 2+ years now I am using something similar...

I have "HypersnapDX" program that takes screenshots when I press certain key (my choice).

Thus, after land combat I have few pictures instead of move (I take pictures when data on screen changes). I know that this is more troublesome than Oleg's move but it is 1000x smaller and easier to analyze...

Leo "Apollo11"

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P: UV, WitP, WitP-AE

(in reply to Oleg Mastruko)

Post #: 28

RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/27/2005 3:40:18 PM

Feinder

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From: Land o' Lakes, FL
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Or they could just include (at least) the adjusted odds in the combat report. THAT isn't hard. If you really want to see the status of the individual units, you can sit thru the replay. But just adding the base/adjusted for each side to to combat report would be VERY useful.

But it's not like that hasn't been asked before.

-F-

_____________________________

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Post #: 29

RE: I just don't understand land combat - 12/27/2005 3:52:20 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
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From: Finland/Israel
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Not only I don't understand Land Combat, I don't understand Production System, Supply Movement and some amphibious invasion stuff in this game !! So you folks are way better off than me !

(in reply to Feinder)

Post #: 30

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