Slitherine

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ORIGINAL: barnacle bob

Just curious. What is the justification for this? I read every thing I can about the Pacific Theatre. I don’t recall reading anything about this (I may have and it did not sink in). I know the US used IJN DDs, after the war, to clear mines….the old fashion way by hitting them.

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ORIGINAL: barnacle bob

Thanks.

OK. That is what I thought. I just never saw it in writing.

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ORIGINAL: Nikademus

definately not a good idea....i've lost more than one that way......always send expendible PC's or MSW's if you have em

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ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

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ORIGINAL: barnacle bob

Just curious. What is the justification for this? I read every thing I can about the Pacific Theatre. I don’t recall reading anything about this (I may have and it did not sink in). I know the US used IJN DDs, after the war, to clear mines….the old fashion way by hitting them.

Ships (esp smaller, maneuverable warships) would post double lookouts and spot the mines by advancing (slowly) into minefields. The spotted mines would then be shot with MG and small cannons (i.e. 20 mm.) or even rifle fire. Even subs could do this.

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ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

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ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

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ORIGINAL: barnacle bob

Just curious. What is the justification for this? I read every thing I can about the Pacific Theatre. I don’t recall reading anything about this (I may have and it did not sink in). I know the US used IJN DDs, after the war, to clear mines….the old fashion way by hitting them.

Ships (esp smaller, maneuverable warships) would post double lookouts and spot the mines by advancing (slowly) into minefields. The spotted mines would then be shot with MG and small cannons (i.e. 20 mm.) or even rifle fire. Even subs could do this.

Which works alright with "floating" mines, but the great majority are moored and held several feet (10-30) "below" the surface---not something "lookouts" are likely to spot. And of course, in the game, DD's perform this task at ANY speed, not the 2 or 3 knots you are speeking of. Except for specific "DMS" ships, the whole "sweeping with DD's" is another piece of designer non-sense.

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but if you don't bring a dedicated MSW or ten, don't invade my islands hoping DDs will do

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ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Does anyone remember how we got this rule?

It was back in UV days that IJN had only 13 MSWs in the whole game. I won one game as USN by concentrating on IJN MSWs. Killed 12 of them early on and mined everything. It seems like dirty and gamey play (which it was) but I always pay attention to mine warfare, I always kill MSWs and MLs when I can and I didn't do it on purpose (ie I would sink MSWs anyway, even if he had 60 of them). I think then it dawned to both me any my opponent how little MSWs Japanese have.

Some players complained about this so the "emergency minesweep" rule was intruduced, where DDs, PGs and PCs can sweep a mine or two - and *more importantly* - detect a minefield (minefield, once detected, is much less efficient in damaging ships).

I think it works fine - but if you don't bring a dedicated MSW or ten, don't invade my islands hoping DDs will do

O.

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ORIGINAL: bilbow
I only need 10? Great! You must have really slowed down your mining ops!

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ORIGINAL: barnacle bob

Thanks.

OK. That is what I thought. I just never saw it in writing.

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

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ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

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ORIGINAL: barnacle bob

Thanks.

OK. That is what I thought. I just never saw it in writing.

Many also had paravanes to cutmine cables.

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ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

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ORIGINAL: Nikademus

definately not a good idea....i've lost more than one that way......always send expendible PC's or MSW's if you have em

like this guy...

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Does anyone remember how we got this rule?

It was back in UV days that IJN had only 13 MSWs in the whole game. I won one game as USN by concentrating on IJN MSWs. Killed 12 of them early on and mined everything. It seems like dirty and gamey play (which it was) but I always pay attention to mine warfare, I always kill MSWs and MLs when I can and I didn't do it on purpose (ie I would sink MSWs anyway, even if he had 60 of them). I think then it dawned to both me any my opponent how little MSWs Japanese have.

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They deliberately ignore air laid mines.

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The technology involved is paravanes. These are floats with wires attached strung from the bow - the mine cables catch the wires and that forces them up where riflemen can shoot them.

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ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

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They deliberately ignore air laid mines.

???

WITP has air-laid mines, and many players use them. You have to get to a certain date, however.

As for the SPEED of MSWs when conducting operations - the speed of the unit to and from the hex is specified. it is kind of vague how fast units are actually moving when conducting minesweeping ops, however, there probably should be some sort of ops points assessed for minesweeping operations, i think. But lots of stuff doesn't get assessed OPS Points that should in the game - heck, some of the time i notice that ships loading troops aren't assessed OPS points.

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You can put a DMS or two in a surface combat taskforce and it will still do a 6 hex run in, fire and hit everything, and then run back out 6 hexes( plus it will make a path through the mine field all at the same time ).

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ORIGINAL: Oleg Mastruko

Does anyone remember how we got this rule?

It was back in UV days that IJN had only 13 MSWs in the whole game. I won one game as USN by concentrating on IJN MSWs. Killed 12 of them early on and mined everything. It seems like dirty and gamey play (which it was) but I always pay attention to mine warfare, I always kill MSWs and MLs when I can and I didn't do it on purpose (ie I would sink MSWs anyway, even if he had 60 of them). I think then it dawned to both me any my opponent how little MSWs Japanese have.

Some players complained about this so the "emergency minesweep" rule was intruduced, where DDs, PGs and PCs can sweep a mine or two - and *more importantly* - detect a minefield (minefield, once detected, is much less efficient in damaging ships).

I think it works fine - but if you don't bring a dedicated MSW or ten, don't invade my islands hoping DDs will do
O.

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ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Paul Vebber (waiting for him to post here) worked for the USN minewarfare.

Its the old problem. Before DD,PC could detect mines we had the "Hey you don't need a minesweeper to detect mines, detecting them is half the work. Now we have the DD are clearing mines at 30 knts. I think not. I think the TF detects the mines and slows down and DD/PC do not clear a minefield like MSW.

I was on a USN FFG. We had no minesweeping equipment at all. In GW-I my ship (USS Halyburton FFG-40) detected and avoided (and since we were the "low end" of the the "high low mix" we led the TF (The CV USS America CV USS JFK TF) No ship in this TF ever hit a mine. The TF moved normally at 22 knts or better.
The only detection gear employed was the Mark-I eyeball. In daylight we could see submerged mines quite a long way off. If depends alot on seastate. At night you need to really pay attention.

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Mine sweeping
A sweep is either a contact sweep, a simple metal wire dragged through the water by one or two ships to cut the mooring wire of floating mines, or a distance sweep that tries to mimic a ship to get the mines to detonate. The sweeps are dragged by minesweepers, either military ships or converted trawlers. Each run covers between one and two hundred meters, and the ships have to move slowly in a straight line, which makes them very vulnerable to enemy fire. This was most famously exploited by the Turkish army in the Battle of Gallipoli in 1915, when mobile howitzer batteries prevented the British and French from clearing a way through the minefields.

If a contact sweep hits a mine, the wire of the sweep (which is made of high quality steel) rubs against the wire mooring the mine until it is cut. Sometimes "cutters", explosive devices to cut the mine's wire, are used to lessen the strain on the sweeping wire. Any mine cut free is recorded and either collected for research or simply shot with the deck cannon.

Minesweepers can protect themselves by using an oropesa or paravane instead of a second minesweeper. These are torpedo-shaped towed bodies, similar in shape to a Harvey Torpedo, that are streamed from the sweeping vessel thus keeping the sweep at a determined depth and position. Some large warships were routinely equipped with paravane sweeps near the bows in case they inadvertently sailed into minefields — the mine would be deflected towards the paravane by the wire instead of towards the ship by its wake. More recently, heavy-lift helicopters have been employed to drag minesweeping sleds, as in the 1991 Persian Gulf War.

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Mine hunting

Mine hunting is very different from sweeping, even if some minehunters can do both tasks. When mine hunting, the mines are located using sonar, then inspected and destroyed either by divers or ROVs (remote controlled unmanned mini submarines). It is slow, but also the most secure way to remove mines. Mine hunting started during the Second World War, but it was only after the war that it became a truly effective method.

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ORIGINAL: Mogami
...Paul Vebber (waiting for him to post here) worked for the USN minewarfare. ..

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As for the SPEED of MSWs when conducting operations - the speed of the unit to and from the hex is specified. it is kind of vague how fast units are actually moving when conducting minesweeping ops, however, there probably should be some sort of ops points assessed for minesweeping operations, i think. But lots of stuff doesn't get assessed OPS Points that should in the game - heck, some of the time i notice that ships loading troops aren't assessed OPS points.

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WITP has air-laid mines, and many players use them. You have to get to a certain date, however.