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RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/27/2006 11:34:39 PM

Greyshaft

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How about displaying the site of historical naval battles, sub sinkings etc?
When I finished the HQ leader biographies and have tidied up the sixteen incomplete air units then I can fit the sub histories and locations in between writing up the land units and doing the ship descriptions

Maybe I'll just vote for the the compass rose...

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Post #: 391

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/27/2006 11:57:30 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

How about displaying the site of historical naval battles, sub sinkings etc?
When I finished the HQ leader biographies and have tidied up the sixteen incomplete air units then I can fit the sub histories and locations in between writing up the land units and doing the ship descriptions

Maybe I'll just vote for the the compass rose...

Or perhaps document where every torpedo was fired during WW II (whether it went left, right, under, or on target). I mention this, because at Narvik there were a lot of torpedoes fired that never got to the proper depth. The "targets" never even knew they had been fired upon. Then not again, you could spend time with your son.

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Post #: 392

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 5:38:24 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Ok. There rivers are in. This wasn't easy. I thought that the coastal hexes numbering around 5100 bitmaps were a lot, but there are over 7000 hexes with either river or lake hexsides. Just throwing them in as bitmaps is beyond the resources of the XP operating system. A bunch of technical details could be added here ...

The upshot is that the rivers match the WIF FE maps. If you look at Stettin you will notice that the river abruptly stop before it reaches the Baltic. That is how it should be, because the hexside to Stettin's east should be all sea. The river must not be part of that hexside. Of course, the artist has to fix this so that the Baltic extends down to the river. [But not the river up to the Baltic.]

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Post #: 393

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 5:41:58 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here is Spain with pretty rivers.

The artist is working on the icons. I have seen the his first pass at them and he and I will probably reach agreement next week. At which point I'll post them and see what the WIF world at large thinks (that's you!).

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Post #: 394

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 5:45:51 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Warsaw and Lodz. I still need to rearrange some of these names and icons.

I also have the lake hexsides being superimposed over the new pretty lake hexsides. I'll take them out tomorrow (maybe late tonight) and then post what Lenigrad and Moscow look like.

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Post #: 395

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 5:53:23 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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One of the problems I ran into when doing the rivers on the fly (they are added to the top of the other terrain as the screen is being drawn), is refresh speed.

It's fine at higher levels of resolution (4 to 8) but at the lower levels you can see the screen refresh. The refresh rate for a full screen at zoom level 2 is less than a second, but that is with my machine at 2.53 GHz. Once I have everything running smoothly and checked out, I'll investigate where the CPU cycles are been consumed and see what I can do about speeding things up. Also, looking at desert terrain is blazing fast, because there are no rivers there. Go Rommel!

Here's northern France with Belgium.

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Post #: 396

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 11:59:02 AM

c92nichj

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

One of the problems I ran into when doing the rivers on the fly (they are added to the top of the other terrain as the screen is being drawn), is refresh speed.

It's fine at higher levels of resolution (4 to 8) but at the lower levels you can see the screen refresh. The refresh rate for a full screen at zoom level 2 is less than a second, but that is with my machine at 2.53 GHz. Once I have everything running smoothly and checked out, I'll investigate where the CPU cycles are been consumed and see what I can do about speeding things up. Also, looking at desert terrain is blazing fast, because there are no rivers there. Go Rommel!

Here's northern France with Belgium.

Maybe too early for those comments, but cannot help but noticing.
St-Malo have a fair bit of bridges tunnels around it.
The hexside betwen Amsterdam and the Dutch resource looks a little bit strange
Does the refreshrate of the screen make scrolling the map difficult?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 397

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 3:22:56 PM

Caranorn

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Wow, these are starting to look really great. At first I didn't like how rivers are relatively far from the hexsides (and thereby located within hexes in many cases), but at the lower zoom levels it becomes less of an issue (it's a visual issue only anyhow).

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Post #: 398

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 7:55:24 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

One of the problems I ran into when doing the rivers on the fly (they are added to the top of the other terrain as the screen is being drawn), is refresh speed.

It's fine at higher levels of resolution (4 to 8) but at the lower levels you can see the screen refresh. The refresh rate for a full screen at zoom level 2 is less than a second, but that is with my machine at 2.53 GHz. Once I have everything running smoothly and checked out, I'll investigate where the CPU cycles are been consumed and see what I can do about speeding things up. Also, looking at desert terrain is blazing fast, because there are no rivers there. Go Rommel!

Here's northern France with Belgium.

Maybe too early for those comments, but cannot help but noticing.
St-Malo have a fair bit of bridges tunnels around it.
The hexside betwen Amsterdam and the Dutch resource looks a little bit strange
Does the refreshrate of the screen make scrolling the map difficult?

I post these so I can get comments from people.

The cure for the St Malo area (planned but not coded) are:
1 - reposition St Malo to clock position 4 (it is now at 3).
2 - enable fixed positions for target points with a hex with no icons. This would be applied to the hexes left and right of St Malo. The one on the left would be moved up (right now it is terrified by the water) so the zigzag is removed. The one on the right would be moved away from the water. Right now it is not afraid of the water because there is no all sea hexside in its hex. Instead it is moving towards the water to smooth the transition between St Malo and Cherbourg. By forcing it to go to a target point at the 5 o'clock position, all should be well.
3 - I still want to smooth out the rail lines so there is less jaggedness to them.

Amsterdam has a lake to its east. What you see there is a remnant of CWIF - lake hexside. I have to correct the logic so it only displays the old style rivers and lakes when the new bitmaps haven't been added yet. I have done that for the coastlines. While the map is being completed a hybrid system will exist. Once all the bitmaps are done for the whole world, I'll eliminate the old code completely.

Refresh rate - Hey I just became aware of the problem 12 hours ago.

Give me a break.

I had 3 ideas for improving it when I got up this morning.

If after a week it is still noticeable, then I'll start to worry.

I write this stuff pretty close to stream of consciousness - I like to keep the people who bother to read this thread informed about the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.

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Post #: 399

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 8:02:02 PM

JanSorensen

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You probably also need to reposition the ports in Antwerp, Rotherdam and Rouen within their respective hexes so the port symbols are on the coast rather than in the ocean.

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RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 8:35:59 PM

amwild

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
My darling wife asked if there were going to be compass roses in the empty sea areas (the old fashioned N-S-E-W compasses like on maps of the 17th century). That raises some interesting alternative possibilities too. A lot of the sea hexes are unimportant - large swatches of them - and some artwork could be placed there. Suggestions?

I thought that in the atlantic and mediteranean at least, you could overlay the hex dots and sea-box info over a copy of the Kriegsmarine position chart - you know, the one where you describe a location with two letters followed by two numbers, e.g. Malta is CN34, New York is CA51, etc... I don't know if ther is any similar sort of chart for the pacific or other ocean areas.

Whatever you decide to use as decoration in open sea areas, I would suggest that you have an option to toggle this decoration on or off, and make it clear in the options and help files that this decoration has no game effect.

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Post #: 401

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 8:38:13 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JanSorensen
You probably also need to reposition the ports in Antwerp, Rotherdam and Rouen within their respective hexes so the port symbols are on the coast rather than in the ocean.

That's a possibility. It contradicts one of my other goals when positioning multiple icons within a hex: keep them separated so they are cleanly visible - not looking cluttered. That the port symbol 'floats' doesn't bother me that much - it is a port afterall. When the port symbol is alone in the hex, I have enough freedom that I can position it on the coastline. Indeed, if there is a rail line joining up to it, I have to have it 'onshore'.

I'll take your suggestion and move Rotterdam's port symbol, but the other two don't have a lot of room available. Though their port symbols can be squeezed in to adjoin the coast, doing so would detract from their distinctness (IMO).

And for those of you who wonder, yes, I do worry about this level of detail. For example, the Rhineland text has been positioned so it does not cover the rail line. I go over the map every day for a hour or so looking for things to reposition that will improve its clarity.

So if you see other things that look wrong to you, let me know. I make dozens of changes every month (some small, some large) based on the advice of the forum members.

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Post #: 402

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 8:46:34 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: amwild
I thought that in the atlantic and mediteranean at least, you could overlay the hex dots and sea-box info over a copy of the Kriegsmarine position chart - you know, the one where you describe a location with two letters followed by two numbers, e.g. Malta is CN34, New York is CA51, etc... I don't know if ther is any similar sort of chart for the pacific or other ocean areas.

Whatever you decide to use as decoration in open sea areas, I would suggest that you have an option to toggle this decoration on or off, and make it clear in the options and help files that this decoration has no game effect.

Actually, my total knowledge concerning Kriegsmarine charts comes from what you wrote in your post. They talk about blissful ignorance, and I am a happy kind of guy.

So, you will have to give me a better understanding of what you envision. Would there be one identifier per sea area? Or more? Would the font size be the same as for the sea area or smaller - if smaller, comparable to the size which other map labels?

Yes, decorations are optional.

And yes, that they do not affect game play needs to be clearly communicated - an excellent point.

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Post #: 403

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 8:54:07 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Caranorn

Wow, these are starting to look really great. At first I didn't like how rivers are relatively far from the hexsides (and thereby located within hexes in many cases), but at the lower zoom levels it becomes less of an issue (it's a visual issue only anyhow).

Thanks.

The rivers and all the coastal bitmaps are not quite registered correctly. Against a fixed hexgrid, they all will be moving left a tad. You can see the misregistration by looking at the all sea hex just SW of Dover. Its top tip should be aligned perfectly beneath Dover's western, vertical hexside line. I had a thought this morning about how I might be able to correct the misregistration without waiting on the graphics artist to take care of it. If I get a chance, I'll try it out.

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Post #: 404

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 10:02:09 PM

Froonp

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Look here :
http://uboat.net/maps/grid.html

quote:

Actually, my total knowledge concerning Kriegsmarine charts comes from what you wrote in your post. They talk about blissful ignorance, and I am a happy kind of guy.

So, you will have to give me a better understanding of what you envision. Would there be one identifier per sea area? Or more? Would the font size be the same as for the sea area or smaller - if smaller, comparable to the size which other map labels?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 405

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 10:08:20 PM

dhatchen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: dhatchen

In a spirit of Greyshaft, i.e., Trivia, can anybody tell me what that game was...

War in the East, where the true value of preserving a 1-4 infantry unit was taught to all war gamers.

Actually, it has been so long since I have seen War in the East that I do not remember if that is the case.

I had a different one in mind

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Post #: 406

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/28/2006 10:36:43 PM

cinsulan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
One of the problems I ran into when doing the rivers on the fly (they are added to the top of the other terrain as the screen is being drawn), is refresh speed.

Hi Shannon, keep up the good work!

This is the first time I post on the forum, though I have been reading posts for a few weeks. I'm working as a manager for application development for a company in Irvine, CA, but I'm located in Honolulu at the moment.

I have been a WiF fan since I bought my first copy in the 1980's ( I think ). Anyway, on and off for the last 5 years I have been experimenting with graphics engines for 2D strategy games, thinking that I will eventually have time to develop a strategy game. I'm currently designing and programming applications in java, but have worked with C++ and C# as well. As long as it's OO, who cares.

In my last little program, I created a map 1000x1000 hexes with 15 layers of terrain on each hex and randomly generated over 100000+ units while still retaining an fps of 28 - using java ( which uses DirectDraw underneath in this case ). With optimization, it should be possible to reach the max refresh rate for the rendering process itself. I'm not an expert in anyway, but I have some experience.

Why am I saying this. Well, although I've lived here in Honolulu since 2001 (except for one year in Irvine), I haven't found a single programmer that is interested in programming strategy games. Most programmers are focused on 3D technology. Seeing that you are here in Honolulu was encouraging.

Now, I'd like to offer myself as a springboard to you Shannon. The project you are working on is massive and as a programmer and project manager I know how frustrating it can be talking to your mirror :). I'm willing to share all my knowledge about game programming which doesn't amount to a whole lot, but anyway. I don't want any compensation, willing to sign an NDA or simply accept that you don't talk about specific implementation. If you want ideas, feedback on specific design issues, frankly whatever - you can call or email me anytime - I want to see this project completed. Since we're in the same time zone you don't have to worry about disturbing me at indecent times unless you work around the clock ;).

Good luck to you and the project in any case!

Claes Insulander

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 407

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/29/2006 1:15:32 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Thank you for your offer.

Why don't you send me an email to Steve@PatternDiscovery.us so we can continue this discussion off-line.

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Post #: 408

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/29/2006 1:50:12 AM

Dunckelzahn

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This is beginning to look really good;)

Are you considering making the forrest, mountains etc. look less hexlike (like you done with rivers). You don't have to make individual bitmaps, just one for each border combination with plains in the background(which will be app. 50 different combinations:(

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Post #: 409

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/29/2006 3:29:13 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dunckelzahn

This is beginning to look really good;)

Are you considering making the forrest, mountains etc. look less hexlike (like you done with rivers). You don't have to make individual bitmaps, just one for each border combination with plains in the background(which will be app. 50 different combinations:(

I think your math is off. Even after excluding ice, tundra, all sea, all lake, and Qattara depression, there are still 7 terrain types remaining. Pairwise combinations are 6 + 5 + 4 + 3 + 2 + 1 = 21. Which then have to be multiplied by the 6 hexsides (= 126).

That only addresses the problem of a hex of one terrain type adjacent to one of another terrain type. If you want two adjacent hexsides to look different than 2 single hexsides, then the problem is harder. For example, imagine where a vertex of 3 hexagons is for 3 different terrain types: forest, clear, and mountain. How is the area around the vertex drawn?

I am already pushing the limits of memory and CPU speed to render the map on the screen. Room for a lot more bitmaps doesn't exist. As it is already, there is a good chance I am gong to have to conjure up some more cleverness to accommodate all the river and coastal bitmaps once they are all finished. The European map (now completed) contains roughly 1/6 of the total.

Originally, I wanted some of what you suggested for the situations where a large swathe of one terrain type sits amidst a larger one of another. Pripet marshes come to mind. The problem is that to choose the correct alternative bitmap (e.g., for swamp) is a problem in and of itself. The alternative of hard coding which bitmap to use where is labor intensive too (about half of the 70,200 hexes are land).

So, what you see is what you are going to get - for the most part. To my mind, the general design for rendering the map is done.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 410

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/29/2006 5:24:30 AM

YohanTM2

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quote:

Actually, it has been so long since I have seen War in the East that I do not remember if that is the case.

I had a different one in mind

Decision Games is updating WiE later this year for the computer. Could be fun...BUT...not as much as WiF!!

(in reply to cinsulan)

Post #: 411

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/29/2006 7:31:20 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Today's accomplishment was correcting the registration for the European map. Not easy, but done now.

Here is a long series of screen shots of the problem hexes. I'll start with the all time favorite: Hull-Sheffield. This looks ok to my eye.

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Steve

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Post #: 412

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/29/2006 7:32:41 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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And Stettin, which was pretty messed up yesterday. I believe this is also ok as is.

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Post #: 413

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/29/2006 7:34:08 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Bordeaux. Not too bad. Not worth taking the artist's time to improve (IMO).

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Post #: 414

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/29/2006 7:35:28 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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nantes. This is the only one I am thinking about having the artist touch up.

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Steve

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Post #: 415

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/29/2006 7:37:52 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Stockholm. This is the last of the 5 that I have on my list to be concerned about. This looks ok to me. Notice the pretty lake hexsides.

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Steve

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Post #: 416

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/29/2006 7:40:02 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here are the lake hexes around Leningrad. The upper portion of the lake is off the WIF FE map, so they will need to be completed by the artist by hand. A few of the names should be repositioned.

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Steve

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Post #: 417

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/29/2006 7:41:11 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Kalinin lakes.

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Post #: 418

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/29/2006 7:45:41 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here is the northern Black Sea with the correct registration. All the names and icons have yet to be repositioned. I wanted the registration right before I went in and shoved them all about.

This is one of the toughest tests for the registration - that cresent sweep north of Kerch doesn't leave any latitude for error.

Now I will look into speeding up the refresh rate.

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Steve

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Post #: 419

RE: Maps for MWIF - 1/29/2006 9:13:57 AM

lomyrin

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To my eyes the Nantes hex still needs better clarity in the south where the river goes into Bay of Biscay.

The Hull/Sheffield bay could also be more definite all the way to the end of the common hex borders. As shown there is still a small part that can be mistaken for a connection.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 420