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Advance building Jap CV's - 1/31/2006 12:52:03 AM   
kevini100

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 6/29/2004
Status: offline 		Hey all,

All right so I decided that I wanted to speed up the arrival of these 6 Japanese ships all CV's with 68 Durability. Unryu, Amagi, Katsuragi, Kasagi, Aso and Ikoma. Now I know at less than 10 * Durability these ships will cost 194 naval construction points a day. I'm giving up the Shinano and the two BB's so far. I plan to halt all the RO subs as well and I'm increasing shipyards.

My question is will they not cost 68 a day to accelerate between 30 * durability and 10 * durability?

A ship that has a delay over 10 * Ship Durability and less than 30 * Ship Durability
may be accelerated. It will remove 1 additional delay (other than the free 1 delay removal) each
day for a cost of appropriate shipyard points equal to the ship’s durability.

This segment from the manual seems to indicate that cost will be the ships durability during this period. If this is wrong then let me know and why isn't the manual most specific.

K
Post #: 1
RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 1/31/2006 2:51:45 AM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		They will each cost 132 per day to accelerate, in addition to their normal construction cost. During the period between 30 * durability and 10 * durability the normal cost is 0/day, so the total cost will be 132 per day. Below 10 * durability the normal cost is 68/day, so the total cost will be 200/day.

Forget the last 3, they will never arrive in time to be useful. The soonest they can arrive is 6-7/44. Pointless. You would be better off accelerating Taiho and a bunch of DDs, getting them to arrive 13-14 months earlier. IMHO.

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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 1/31/2006 2:28:28 PM   
kevini100

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 6/29/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

They will each cost 132 per day to accelerate, in addition to their normal construction cost. During the period between 30 * durability and 10 * durability the normal cost is 0/day, so the total cost will be 132 per day. Below 10 * durability the normal cost is 68/day, so the total cost will be 200/day.

Forget the last 3, they will never arrive in time to be useful. The soonest they can arrive is 6-7/44. Pointless. You would be better off accelerating Taiho and a bunch of DDs, getting them to arrive 13-14 months earlier. IMHO.


are these numbers right? 3 times 68 is 204 and 2 times 68 is 136. And what of the way the manual is written it appears to imply that the cost between 10 * dur and 30 * dur is the durability? Please explain this 2 times durability for this time period.

K


< Message edited by kevini100 -- 1/31/2006 3:24:38 PM >

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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 1/31/2006 3:30:54 PM   
BlackVoid


Posts: 639
Joined: 10/17/2003
Status: offline 		Shipbuilding:
- Continue halting ships and expand some shipyards until your naval pool starts to increase. Once it is increasing, you can look at the rate and put ships back in the queue. From the pool you can also calculate actual shipyard usage if you want.

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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 1/31/2006 4:01:32 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

are these numbers right? 3 times 68 is 204 and 2 times 68 is 136.

So I can't multiply or add (comes from years of using Excel). At least I was close.

quote:

And what of the way the manual is written it appears to imply that the cost between 10 * dur and 30 * dur is the durability? Please explain this 2 times durability for this time period.

13.2.3 p.182 "Ships with accelerated production will use double the shipyard points for the additional delay removed (3 times durability for 2 days delay removed)." Seems pretty clear. I think 13.7 is written incorrectly. But it's easy enough to test. Fire up a fresh H2H scenario 15. Halt Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Taiho, Junyo, Hiyo, Ryuho, Shoho, DD Makigumo, I-11, I-27, I-28, I-29, I-30, I-31, I-32, I-33, I-34, I-35, I-36, and I-176. Then set one of the Unryus for accelerated construction. Stand down all air units to speed things up, and let the game run for one day. At the start of the next turn there will either be 1038 shipbuilding points, which means that it works as I describe, or there will be 1106 shipbuilding points, which means that I need to polish up a general apology as well as go into my PBEM and accelerate more ships.


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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 1/31/2006 4:35:44 PM   
kevini100

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 6/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

are these numbers right? 3 times 68 is 204 and 2 times 68 is 136.

So I can't multiply or add (comes from years of using Excel). At least I was close.

quote:

And what of the way the manual is written it appears to imply that the cost between 10 * dur and 30 * dur is the durability? Please explain this 2 times durability for this time period.

13.2.3 p.182 "Ships with accelerated production will use double the shipyard points for the additional delay removed (3 times durability for 2 days delay removed)." Seems pretty clear. I think 13.7 is written incorrectly. But it's easy enough to test. Fire up a fresh H2H scenario 15. Halt Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Taiho, Junyo, Hiyo, Ryuho, Shoho, DD Makigumo, I-11, I-27, I-28, I-29, I-30, I-31, I-32, I-33, I-34, I-35, I-36, and I-176. Then set one of the Unryus for accelerated construction. Stand down all air units to speed things up, and let the game run for one day. At the start of the next turn there will either be 1038 shipbuilding points, which means that it works as I describe, or there will be 1106 shipbuilding points, which means that I need to polish up a general apology as well as go into my PBEM and accelerate more ships.



Not to ask a silly question but have you all ready done this. The manual for this is far better than some I've seen in the past for other games.

K

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Post #: 6
RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 1/31/2006 4:55:57 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
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From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
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quote:

Not to ask a silly question but have you all ready done this.

No, I haven't. If I had I would report the result

It never occurred to me to do so. I never parsed 13.7 carefully enough to notice the conflict with 13.2.3 until you asked the question.

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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 1/31/2006 5:01:02 PM   
kevini100

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 6/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

Not to ask a silly question but have you all ready done this.

No, I haven't. If I had I would report the result

It never occurred to me to do so. I never parsed 13.7 carefully enough to notice the conflict with 13.2.3 until you asked the question.


Oh! Well I'll most certainly do this after work. If it did turn out that the was 68 for that time period then this could have dramatic impact of Japanese shipbuilding or advancement strategy.

K


< Message edited by kevini100 -- 1/31/2006 5:09:21 PM >

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Post #: 8
RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 1/31/2006 5:06:26 PM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline
quote:

If it did turn out that the was 68 for that time period then this could have dramatic impact of Japanese shipbuilding or advancement strategy.


Indeed it could. But I still would not accelerate the last 3 Unryus. Paying less for acceleration doesn't make them arrive any faster. Instead I'd be accelerating more DDs.

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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 2/1/2006 12:26:21 AM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I immediately work to get the early CVs out ASAP: Junyo, Hiyo, Shoho, Ryujo, Taiho, etc... As they clear and Yamato get completed, I accelerate ALL the remaining CVs (except of course Shinano). This seems to work pretty well.

I also expand shipbuilding about 100 points. This is done gradually. By June 1942 all these conditions are met and thing proceed pretty well.

One thing a lot of people seem to miss is the Repair Yards. The Japanese do not have enough repair capacity (even with Singapore and Hong Kong) so I expand it A LOT. Sure it costs but I also can get my very FEW valauable ships repaired much more quickly then what happened during the war.

.02...

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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 2/1/2006 12:58:33 AM   
kevini100

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 6/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

quote:

are these numbers right? 3 times 68 is 204 and 2 times 68 is 136.

So I can't multiply or add (comes from years of using Excel). At least I was close.

quote:

And what of the way the manual is written it appears to imply that the cost between 10 * dur and 30 * dur is the durability? Please explain this 2 times durability for this time period.

13.2.3 p.182 "Ships with accelerated production will use double the shipyard points for the additional delay removed (3 times durability for 2 days delay removed)." Seems pretty clear. I think 13.7 is written incorrectly. But it's easy enough to test. Fire up a fresh H2H scenario 15. Halt Yamato, Musashi, Shinano, Taiho, Junyo, Hiyo, Ryuho, Shoho, DD Makigumo, I-11, I-27, I-28, I-29, I-30, I-31, I-32, I-33, I-34, I-35, I-36, and I-176. Then set one of the Unryus for accelerated construction. Stand down all air units to speed things up, and let the game run for one day. At the start of the next turn there will either be 1038 shipbuilding points, which means that it works as I describe, or there will be 1106 shipbuilding points, which means that I need to polish up a general apology as well as go into my PBEM and accelerate more ships.




I ran the simulation as you said and I ended up with 1106 shipbuilding points. How about that. This means it does cost the durability for the time period from 30 * durability to 10 * durability then. Sweeeet

Kevini


< Message edited by kevini100 -- 2/1/2006 2:35:19 AM >

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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 2/1/2006 1:11:56 AM   
kevini100

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 6/29/2004
Status: offline 		These means I can afford to advance the 6 late war CV's and last 2 will come in about Sept 10th 43. I'll have to dig up some more ship construction points prior to these getting to delay of 680 days.

Kevin

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Post #: 12
RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 2/1/2006 2:37:09 AM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		Good catch, Kevini100! And my apologies for being so adamantly wrong.

I was wrong about the possible arrival dates for those last 3 Unryus as well (as you have discerned); that's the great thing about spreadsheets, they give you the opportunity to make a single error yet be wrong a million times as a result.



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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 2/1/2006 2:43:22 AM   
kevini100

 

Posts: 136
Joined: 6/29/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: irrelevant

Good catch, Kevini100! And my apologies for being so adamantly wrong.

I was wrong about the possible arrival dates for those last 3 Unryus as well (as you have discerned); that's the great thing about spreadsheets, they give you the opportunity to make a single error yet be wrong a million times as a result.




So then how much do this change the possible Japanese strategic choices for ship acceleration? If Japan was able to work it out and get these 6 CV's by Sept of 43 then this might bring them back to parity or somewhere near by that time. It might cause the US to slow down and be more causious or you might even be able to catch him asleep.

K

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Post #: 14
RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 2/1/2006 2:58:21 AM   
tsimmonds


Posts: 5498
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
Status: offline 		If you cancel Shinano, Taiho, and the 2 BBs, this will save you 286,293 points by the arrival date of the last accelerated Unryu. The full Unryu acceleration program will cost 323,170. You could throw in Ibuki by 8/23/43 for another 8960. Shortfall of 45,837 (36,877 for just the Unryus). Each K6/KD7 sub you cancel saves you 6760 points....and you can accelerate an Akitsuki class by 195 days for 1690 points; 165 days off a Yugumo will run you 1210.

You figure it out, you're obviously better at math than I am

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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 2/1/2006 8:02:44 AM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		build Shinano.....she yearns to be complete.



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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 2/1/2006 8:40:59 AM   
doktorblood


Posts: 648
Joined: 2/14/2003
Status: offline 		Ships that are due in days = to over 10x construction cost don't use any shipbuilding points. Accelerated ships out over 10x cost just the construction cost. Those 68 point carriers cost 68 points each to accelerate 1 day until they reach 680 days and then they cost 204 points each per day.

I like to switch over the small merchant yards to naval points and expand all of the small naval yards modestly to reach about 1350 naval points. Halt Shinano(185 points) right away and halt the RO100 series of subs as soon as they hit 250 days.

This should give you plenty of points to accelerate the ships you want.


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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 2/1/2006 9:28:30 AM   
FeurerKrieg


Posts: 3397
Joined: 6/15/2005
From: Denver, CO
Status: offline 		Being one who likes lots of ships (regardless of the effect that has on Allied VPs) I try to maximize my naval points by accelerating ships only in the 10* to 30* range since you get the extra day for half the cost when compared to advancing them after they get below 10*.

I keep very tight watch on my naval shipyard points and I do occasionally accelerate certain ships that are nearing completion, especially if I start to get too many points sitting in the pool. Excel is a great help in keeping track of naval constuction. I can also verify that from 10 to 30 the acceleration cost if the durability.



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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 2/1/2006 12:07:11 PM   
zuikaku


Posts: 135
Joined: 5/20/2005
From: Legrad, Croatia
Status: offline 		What about quality of accelerated ships? Are they more vulnerable? Is their durability reduced? Who needs a carrier a year ahead of schedule, if it is more vulnerable then "normal" ship?

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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 2/1/2006 12:52:48 PM   
String


Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: zuikaku

What about quality of accelerated ships? Are they more vulnerable? Is their durability reduced? Who needs a carrier a year ahead of schedule, if it is more vulnerable then "normal" ship?


nope, all the same. No difference if you accelerate or not.

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RE: Advance building Jap CV's - 2/1/2006 6:12:14 PM   
John 3rd


Posts: 17178
Joined: 9/8/2005
From: La Salle, Colorado
Status: offline 		I agree with the above thought of getting shipyard production up to around 1350. That is enough to accelerate a host of ships and get your CVs in ASAP! It does help keep the Japanese viable as a threat through 1943 (if your pilots have any skill...) and makes the American be more cautious.

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