Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

China was a vast country and the war fought there between Japan and China prior to Dec. 41 was vastly different than that fought between Russia and Germany. There were no special police units created in VAST quantities by Japan to occupy rear areas, because they never actually conquered those rear areas to begin with so there was no pressing need for them.

There was no sweeping front that swept through the country conquering every little village and hamlet, instead Japan attacked along transportation routes on a very narrow front and was forced to occupy the entire line because everything else in the primitive hinterlands remained under Chinese control (except when punitive offensives were launched, but Japan always withdrew back to the transportation lines after).

Front line troops were required to garrison the entire railway network because Japan lacked sufficient troops to occupy the vast interior areas of China. Just because some guy colored in vast areas of the country with red ink on some map and said it was occupied doesn’t mean a few police troops could have had a hope in hell of controlling those areas.

quote:

IMO the best way to simulate this given our current code and a simple fix to it is to raise the garrison limit. Couple it with a cut in Chinese firepower, the elimination of some of the Chinese Corps, the making static of other Chinese corps ... and I think it will go a long way toward providing the feel of China that is not currently provided.
Treespider

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: timtom

Like Ron I'm personally not really keen on the Chinese static units.

However with the cat being out of the bag, how about effectuating Treespiders suggestion by making some of the Japanese units static? Use his formula or whatever the team can agree on to compute new garrison values, then freeze the required no. of LCU's, giving preference to such units as were actually tied down in garrison/anti-guerrilla ops RL.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

stock 1.6


(I know it ain't happening in my mod )

quote:

question out of curiosity however. Are people still "conqueroring" china with ease in 1.6?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Yep.




question out of curiosity however. Are people still "conqueroring" china with ease in 1.6?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I can't agree on the static unit suggestion given the land model. Static units are completely porked once they are forced to retreat. Some other way is necessary. I've found that simply keeping serious supply low is the perfect hindrance to any player wishing to dally with Chinese offensives.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
I can't agree on the static unit suggestion given the land model. Static units are completely porked once they are forced to retreat. Some other way is necessary. I've found that simply keeping serious supply low is the perfect hindrance to any player wishing to dally with Chinese offensives.

Yes lowered supply will slow an attacker, the problem is it also breaks huge parts of the game engine for that side. Things like replacements and rebuilding damaged squads REQUIRE in excess of 20k supplies on hand to even work. If you nerf supply you simply break the game for that side, another solution needs to be found.

Jim

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Reducing supply so that not enough is available to 100% satisfy all the LCUs is fine by me, as long as the situation is mutual.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

did you have any troops stationed at those rear area bases?

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker
Reducing supply so that not enough is available to 100% satisfy all the LCUs is fine by me, as long as the situation is mutual.

The problem is in game terms it doesn't work.

In my PBEM game it is Sept. 42 and I've fought my opponent to a standstill as China in every offensive he's launched. But due to a total lack of sufficient supply at any Chinese base (way less than 20k) my army has slowly withered away and is now collapsing.

I was forced to voluntarily abandon Yenen and Sian to consolidate my northern combat power, and am now in the process of abandoning Changsa and the rail line southwest of there, simply because my combat formations are dying off and not replacing losses. Most of my Corps have between 100-200 squads left and never draw any replacements or repair any damage. I have at least 20 Corps with zero supply on hand even though they occupy bases on rail lines.

I'd say I have less than 50% of the combat power I started the game with while Japan is much stronger because most of his units are at 99 experience now. I’ve played a very good allied game in China and haven’t lost a single major battle yet, but I can’t fight a broken game engine and that is now losing me the country of China.

Low supply breaks the Chinese period, the parts of the game engine that fail to work due to low supply means China will die no matter what. Unless of course the Japanese don't pay attention to it and fail to keep offensive pressure on the Chinese combat units by continually bombarding and attacking non-stop as my opponent has.

Just because reducing supply has the appearance of addressing a problem you want to fix, doesn’t mean it is the right course to take. China was intended to have unlimited manpower in the game (as it should), but in reality the replacement engine stops working for them about a month into the game as the initial stockpiles get used up and supply drops below 20k at its bases. The replacements never work after that and it’s simply a matter of time from there until China collapses.

As I said before, another solution needs to be found and China needs MORE supply not less. Right now the game engine itself is broken for the Chinese.

Jim

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Is this the CHS you are playing Jim?

quote:

But I looked at CHS very closely when I started a game with Treespider a while back that he bailed on after a few turns and the supply for the Chinese was still far too low.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns



Remember only the supply above that 20k is available for use, so if they have 20137 or something they are still screwed. The game engine needs abundant supply to work properly when it come to replacements or damage repair.

Heck even if you manage to keep a base well above 20k supply, it can take a year to rebuild a shattered division (say only 1/3rd of original strength left), so China would need abundant supply every turn for the game to work properly, getting a base to 20k once in a blue moon isn’t going to help them, they need sustained replacement draws to be able to slowly regenerate their losses.

Jim

quote:

China under 1.6 stock is defendable. An Allied player that pays some attention to this theatre can stop the Japs cold. Not all Allied players do pay attention, however.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Rapunzel

Well I am unsing nik´s mod and i am getting steamrolled by japan. It is 7/42 and 3/4 of my army are out of supplies. I could hold the frontline citys but he bypassed them and occupied several backyard bases (with paratroopers - tanks). He does not seem to have any supply probs doing so... .

quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

China under 1.6 stock is defendable. An Allied player that pays some attention to this theatre can stop the Japs cold. Not all Allied players do pay attention, however.

It's not a question of stopping the Japanese cold... the scenario needs to be designed such that it is unattractive to the Japanese to attack in the first place, except to restore the status quo ...and then for them to not want to attack until the situation becomes untenable vis a vis Allied us of airfields in China. However IMO you are not going to be able to create the "feel" of China until you give the Japanese some disincentive to not want to attack. One of the problems with Stock was the ability to cut off Chinese Supply via bombing and the co-occupation of Chinese bases stopping supply production. CHS sought to introduce a "disincentive" by converting supply production in China to a daily supply allotment which cannot be cut off unless a base is captured.

To achieve that "feel" and create the disincentive to attack by the Japanese my solution (which would not require a massive rewriting of the game code) is to change a divisor into a multiplier and a 10 to a 20. After that change is accomplished then scenario designers can go in and tweak:

1. Supply levels
2. Firepower of Chinese troops.
3. Static status of some Chinese units, HQ's and/or corps in certain bases. (Even given the current game engine... if they retreat out of their base consider it a continuation of the struggle in the base. IRL many of these "corps" would just melt into the local populace and linger in the area which is also represented by the newly acquired guerillas at the recently captured base.)
4. Map changes.
Many of which have already been done in some of the mods.

Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy



Coming from the guy who ran away with his CV's....girlie Nik...girlie Nik.....girlie Nik