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WiTP: Returned to Sender

 
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WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 3:44:13 AM   
Odox

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 3/1/2006
Status: offline 		Gentlemen:

For about the last six weeks I've been considering purchasing WiTP. Today it's finally arrived in the mail.

Be fair to me boys, I was teethed on the old Avalon Hill games as a teenager back in the '60s and I've been at this awhile, and I've always hoped for a great WWII Pacific game/simulation. Yet after having read what must be over a few thousand posts in this (and other) forums, I'm sending the game back.

Critiques IMHO should be as fair and balanced as possible, and I always seek to be constructive about them so the developers and others can take these issues to heart.

I have three reasons for returning the game; namely the bugginess and irregularities of such things as ground and large air combat (among others), the absence of much attention to the political options of the various sides (admittedly a personal reason), and the knowledge that a WiTP II is planned and two new developers have been taken on board.

Again to be fair, WiTP initially attracted alot of attention and has retained most of it, and rightfully so. And having read so many of the posts of so many devoted fans of the game, I have come to respect both the game and those that are playing it.

A game of this size and detail is a massive undertaking and my hat is off to it's creators. But invariably such a game as this can fall prey to bugginess and irregularity simply because of the enormity of the effort; and in my opinion this is exactly what has occurred with WiTP. Sure, just about all games of this type have some errata, addenda, patches and fixes, and they come as no surprise. It just seems the calls for corrections and clarifications are unceasing for this particular issue/edition of the game. I am personally discouraged by a game that calls for endless patching. It bespeaks substandard QC.

Furthermore, it appears Matrix is going to "MicroSoft it" by allowing the older version to fade away by nonsupport and simply introduce a (probably much cleaner) new version in WiTP II. It's a perfectly understandable decision from both a business and a practical standpoint. Tear the thing down and clean it up, like was done to all the Unix code by openBSD. Come up with a more powerful and integrated file system (like MS did in NTFS to replace the old FAT/FAT32). Charge me a few hundred for the finished product if you like. But make it work. Smoothly.

I'd be happy to make a few suggestions (like as to the political options I mentioned above), but you have plenty already, and from many others probably alot more qualified to make them.

Just for once, I'd like to see a developer take the time to make a real work of art. I think (and many here would agree) that WiTP is a huge step in that direction. No question about it. It's already among a very rare class of simulation/game in that respect. Now don't just take it to the next level. OWN the next level. From what I've seen from both the quality and loyalty of your fanbase, you owe it to them and to yourselves.

It's just too bad the only way I can get this point across is by refusing to purchase the current product.

Respectfully submitted,

Odox
Post #: 1
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 4:12:17 AM   
JeffroK


Posts: 6391
Joined: 1/26/2005
Status: offline 		Odox,

WITP is a great game.

And far more accurate and with less arrata than anything AH, SPI etc ever put out.

Is it perfect, well at the scale they are using it can never be 100%, its probably at 99%

As for bugs, many are exaggerated or are on games that have been continuously modded & patched.

I paid AUS$70 for it, well worth every sheckel.

_____________________________

Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum

(in reply to Odox)
Post #: 2
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 4:12:46 AM   
dpstafford


Posts: 1910
Joined: 5/26/2002
From: Colbert Nation
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Odox
For about the last six weeks I've been considering purchasing WiTP. Today it's finally arrived in the mail.

I don't think Matrix takes returns.......

_____________________________


(in reply to Odox)
Post #: 3
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 4:42:36 AM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		I also started on Avalon Hill games and ended up with a collection of over three trunks worth of SPI games by the end of the 70's when I was in the US Navy. I now have many games that deal with the land combat in Europe for WW2. I got WitP in 1/05 and have played this game 95% or more since then. It still has bugs and probably will always have a few bugs, even after the next patch (1.8). If you wait for WitPII, what guarantee do you think that it comes out in perfect form without any bugs??
This game is for entertainment purposes and hopefully not to have every variable of the complex war figured out. I see an attempt to balance a game that is both tactical and strategic at the same time.
My question is, "Is there a better game out there that covers the Pacific War any better than this one?" NO, as far as I know. I know it will get better, but never be perfect. I accept it.

(in reply to dpstafford)
Post #: 4
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 4:58:32 AM   
alfrake

 

Posts: 70
Joined: 9/6/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Odox
I have three reasons for returning the game;
namely the bugginess and irregularities of such things as ground and large air combat (among others)

Annoying perhaps, but not very buggy. The bugs I've seen don't happen in combat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Odox
the absence of much attention to the political options of the various sides (admittedly a personal reason)

If that was critical to you, you shouldn't have seriously look at WitP. Its a WARgame. The political points are secondary. It is not a simulation.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Odox
and the knowledge that a WiTP II is planned and two new developers have been taken on board.

Okay, here I have to agree with you. I consider plans for WitP II a major negative on the company. They haven't finished the first game correctly yet are making a second one. I certainly won't buy it unless the original improves noticably first. Mainly because if they can't fix the first one I have no reason to believe the second one will be better. Most sequels go downhill.

(in reply to Odox)
Post #: 5
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 5:21:31 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: alfrake

/snip
quote:

ORIGINAL: Odox
and the knowledge that a WiTP II is planned and two new developers have been taken on board.

Okay, here I have to agree with you. I consider plans for WitP II a major negative on the company. They haven't finished the first game correctly yet are making a second one. I certainly won't buy it unless the original improves noticably first. Mainly because if they can't fix the first one I have no reason to believe the second one will be better. Most sequels go downhill.


This is from Matrix's first post:

The initial task for this Team will be to help finish the 1.8 patch, which will include everything currently in the 1.7.9.5 Beta but with both the disappearing leader and disappearing unit bugs, corrected God willing. I am sure Joe and Don will add a few goodies as well. When the patch is completed, depending on interest we will consider doing a possible WITP Enhancement Pack, or at some point even a new WITP II game. Please give these guys some time to go over everything and get up to speed on it.

As you can see, WITP II is not a project but a possible project in the future.

_____________________________


(in reply to alfrake)
Post #: 6
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 5:22:51 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad
As you can see, WITP II is not a project but a possible project in the future.


And just when as anyone here ever let facts get in the way of a good rant?

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to Nomad)
Post #: 7
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 7:15:47 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, I have an idea. Just for giggles someone post the "Perfect" game they own and then everyone else post all the bugs and flaws from their experiance with that title.

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 8
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 10:33:49 AM   
MarcA


Posts: 1181
Joined: 3/2/2005
From: England
Status: offline 		Personally I think witp is a great game, bugs and all and the more I play it the more I like it. I would be surprised if I have spent less than 600 hours on the game which, at £60, makes it fantastic value for money.



< Message edited by mantill -- 3/31/2006 10:54:23 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 9
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 6:09:27 PM   
wworld7


Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad
As you can see, WITP II is not a project but a possible project in the future.


And just when as anyone here ever let facts get in the way of a good rant?


This was funny...

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 10
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 6:59:02 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Hi Odox,

Im sorry to see a possible member of the community disappear. On some levels I suppose I share your sentiments. However, I would suggest that if the forum is the basis for your decision, your receiving a skewed point of view. If you will notice, despite the rants of some on this forum about WitP, they're still playing it. The reason: its a pretty darn good game. Here are some things to consider:

1. WitP II is only the inkling of a hint of a thought about a possible idea. Don't buy everyones enthusiasm around here about it. Even if they decide to go forward with it your looking at what, maybe 2-3 years of development, maybe more.

2. There are bugs in the game, but not everyone experiences them all, or to the degree that others have. the ONLY bugs I have experienced to any extent have been the combat replay bug and the transport bug. Both I have learned to work around quite effectively - note to Matrix I still expect these things fixed in the future. I have not once experienced the teleportation bug or the leader bug.

3. As to the correctness of the combat resolution, every monkeys uncle has an opinion on what that should be and no two opinions are the same. We love to debate the results all day long because we have no life, but combat is incredibly difficult to model and to a first order approximation WitP isn't too bad.

BOTTOM LINE, if you love this genre of games you owe it to yourself to keep WitP, spend the time to learn the game, learn the work arounds for the bugs you will encounter, join the community and have fun, because WitP is still the best Pacific theater WWII game out there and will be for some time to come.

BTW, Matrix, you can send the check care of Niceguy at PO box....

_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to wworld7)
Post #: 11
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 7:47:01 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

It's just too bad the only way I can get this point across is by refusing to purchase the current product.


Yeah, and you could have done that without buying then returning the game, having never played it.

I smell a load of horse hockey........

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 12
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 7:48:50 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

I smell a load of horse hockey........


BTW, folks, Mynok will be appearing tonight on That's My Cynic!

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 13
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 7:53:36 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

I smell a load of horse hockey........


BTW, folks, Mynok will be appearing tonight on That's My Cynic!



_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 14
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 8:09:04 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

I smell a load of horse hockey........


BTW, folks, Mynok will be appearing tonight on That's My Cynic!

quote:

just too bad


lol....its an excuse used by our favorite troll who's only been hanging around here for what.....3 years now and still hasn't played the game because it's "flawed". Yet he keeps coming back. hmmmm Better sign me up for a seat on That's My Cynic! too.

_____________________________


(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 15
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 3/31/2006 8:24:14 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

I smell a load of horse hockey........


BTW, folks, Mynok will be appearing tonight on That's My Cynic!

quote:

just too bad


lol....its an excuse used by our favorite troll who's only been hanging around here for what.....3 years now and still hasn't played the game because it's "flawed". Yet he keeps coming back. hmmmm Better sign me up for a seat on That's My Cynic! too.



Eh? i thought you were the host!!

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 16
RE: WiTP: Returned to LOG - 3/31/2006 8:35:55 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		lol....you know, i would make a good host. I really really want to believe that there's more to this world than the bland view we see every day (why else a desire to play fantasy RPG's??)

yet at heart i'm also a cynic and everytime someone claims to be psychic or able to do "magic" my first thought is always "yeah right....."



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(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 17
RE: WiTP: Returned to LOG - 3/31/2006 9:05:58 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

lol....you know, i would make a good host. I really really want to believe that there's more to this world than the bland view we see every day (why else a desire to play fantasy RPG's??)

yet at heart i'm also a cynic and everytime someone claims to be psychic or able to do "magic" my first thought is always "yeah right....."



The Truth Is Out There.

_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 18
RE: WiTP: Returned to LOG - 3/31/2006 9:10:42 PM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

The Truth Is Out There.


And I don't believe it!

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 19
RE: WiTP: Returned to LOG - 3/31/2006 9:12:25 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Aaah, X-Files... Those were the days...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Mynok)
Post #: 20
RE: WiTP: Returned to Thread - 3/31/2006 9:15:58 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Aaah, X-Files... Those were the days...



geh - now Nik is "logging" the subject header of other threads!!

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 21
RE: WiTP:LOG approved! - 3/31/2006 9:27:47 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		Like Cancer man.....call me Log-man. (beats getting Lung Cancer)

wait a minute.....wasn't there a character in Twin Peaks who carried around a LOG?

_____________________________


(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 22
RE: WiTP:LOG approved! - 4/1/2006 12:17:14 AM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		That was the log lady. On a related note, I like cherry pie.

If you want to confuse someone, show them a film by David Lynch.

(in reply to Nikademus)
Post #: 23
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 4/1/2006 12:29:39 AM   
Odox

 

Posts: 34
Joined: 3/1/2006
Status: offline 		Gentlemen:

Please forgive me. My earlier post concerning returning WiTP unopened apparently raised both questions and ire. Perhaps a little clarification is in order. Quite likely these responses are simply the result of one or more misunderstandings.

In the first place, I am delighted to have received so many responses, and from people from whom I've come to hold in regard: Nomad, Mogami, mantill, niceguy2005, Mynok, Nikademus, rtrapasso, and Terminus. I also owe a debt of gratitude to moses, Sneer, Spooky, Tom Hunter, Cap_and_Gown, Oleg Mastruko, pauk, and irrelevant (and I'm sure many others whose nicks escape me at present) for their help in understanding this game.

I initially ordered WiTP last week, before I saw the announcement concerning a 1.8 patch and a possible WiTP II. As I've said, I consider a WiTP II to be reasonable from both a business and practicality standpoint; and I believe it would be much wiser to have this available in 6-8 months, and not the 2-3 years as one poster has suggested (niceguy2005).

In all likelihood I simply failed to heap sufficient praise of the game in order to make my critiques more palatable to those less inclined than myself to criticism of it. However, it would be a mistake to assume from my earlier post that I am inclined towards cynicism regarding WiTP. Far from it.

Again, most games of this type are going to have patches and fixes as a matter of course. What concerned me, however, was that a game of such scope and complexity would begin to devolve into an endless series of repairs in order to make it reasonably playable. I believe I see this occurring with WiTP. It's fine to have a game load from disk and have to come back later to download new features and the occasional patch. At some point though, it ceases to be a game from disk needing fixes downloaded and becomes an enormous and ongoing download headache that also happens to require a disk. I think it's crossed that line.

To those of you that feel I am being too 'perfectionistic' or somehow 'unrealistic' in my expectations for smooth game function, again all I can say is that nothing could be further from the truth; because unlike some of you (apparently) I believe it was unrealistic to expect them to get it right the first time given the game's enormous scope and complexity. I have a great deal of appreciation for what they've done and for what they've tried to do in WiTP. It is this appreciation that prompts both my admiration and my criticism. If it appears to some that I'm ignoring WiTP for the obvious achievement that it is (and retaining only criticism) this is entirely unintentional I assure you.

Frankly, with a game of this magnitude, I see us all as still playtesters. I anticipate a finished product substantially more polished and grand. This at least is the game's potential, and I can find no reason as yet to abandon this view.

I'm pleased one poster (mantill) has been able to enjoy the game for over 600 hours thus far. In the last six weeks I've spent very nearly 300 hours just running this initial assessment, this initial perusal. I noticed a few of you have begun to use spreadsheets and flowcharts also, and this is encouraging. I myself haven't even begun the most basic note-taking as of yet; but it is my habit to accumulate many hundreds of such pages and many thousands of hours of testing before I usually enter into even the briefest PBEM. I hope that suffices in convincing some of you I'm not at all 'lost' to WiTP. I'm merely waiting for the clunkiness in the game to be ironed out, observing some of you doing the testing and carrying on the strategy discussions I would otherwise be doing while I wait. I have certainly appreciated your contributions.

I especially want to thank those of you who responded to my concerns in such a courteous manner. I encourage such things, and I look forward to more such exchanges in the future.

Respectfully,

Odox

(in reply to Odox)
Post #: 24
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 4/1/2006 12:49:51 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		Very nicely put, Odox (and believe me, I mean that); sorry you don't like what you see, but that's most certainly your prerogative.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to Odox)
Post #: 25
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 4/1/2006 3:39:28 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline 		Why is this guy a troll all of a sudden?

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 26
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 4/1/2006 3:59:54 AM   
wworld7


Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Odox


I initially ordered WiTP last week, before I saw the announcement concerning a 1.8 patch and a possible WiTP II. As I've said, I consider a WiTP II to be reasonable from both a business and practicality standpoint; and I believe it would be much wiser to have this available in 6-8 months, and not the 2-3 years as one poster has suggested (niceguy2005).

Odox


I don't usually make predictions but I would bet a years salary that NOBODY would be happy with a WITP II that was finished in such a small amount of time. Alpha and Beta testing(s) will likely take longer than you "think" the whole developement process will take.

But if you're right I will be HAPPY.

Flipper

< Message edited by flipperwasirish -- 4/1/2006 4:10:59 AM >

(in reply to Odox)
Post #: 27
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 4/1/2006 4:05:42 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		Odox:

believe me when i say i have SERIOUS reservations about this game - however, it has given me more hours of fascinating game time than anything i've ever encountered before, esp. once i got into PBEM. If anything, the game is TOO engrossing, and i can see if you want to avoid that - but from your comments, this does not seem to be the case (since you are spending large amounts of time just evaluating the game). I suspect once you get into playing PBEM, you will love it.



< Message edited by rtrapasso -- 4/1/2006 4:22:36 AM >

(in reply to Odox)
Post #: 28
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 4/1/2006 4:14:12 AM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Odox:

believe me when i say i have SERIOUS reservations about this game - however, it has given me more hours of fascinating game time than anything i've ever encountered before, esp. once i got into PBEM. If anything, the game is TOO engrossing, and i can see if you want to avoid that - but from your comments, this foes not seem to be the case (since you are spending large amounts of time just evaluating the game). I suspect once you get into playing PBEM, you will love it.




I'm hooked and I'm a critic!


_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 29
RE: WiTP: Returned to Sender - 4/1/2006 4:25:01 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

Odox:

believe me when i say i have SERIOUS reservations about this game - however, it has given me more hours of fascinating game time than anything i've ever encountered before, esp. once i got into PBEM. If anything, the game is TOO engrossing, and i can see if you want to avoid that - but from your comments, this does not seem to be the case (since you are spending large amounts of time just evaluating the game). I suspect once you get into playing PBEM, you will love it.




I'm hooked and I'm a critic!


What?!! Ron, you're critical of the game?!! Say it ain't so!!

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 30
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