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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> AR`s

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AR`s - 4/26/2006 2:16:44 AM

Blackie

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I have a rather large important ship docked at a size 1 port it is heavily damaged 85 SYS
75 FLT no Fire. It is the only port I could get it to so that is where it sits. I am the Japanese. I have an AR with it now docked in port I cannot disband it of course. There is supply aplenty in the port. Am I doing everything I can to save her at this point or is the AR not doing anything. I think I am fighting a losing battle here but wanted to try. The ship is a CV don`t want to gave away any more than that.

Post #: 1

RE: AR`s - 4/26/2006 2:28:55 AM

Rob Brennan UK

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From: London UK
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get 3 more AR's there is the only thing you can do. and pray to the shinto god of ship survival and weather. im sorry to say i think she's finished ..

good luck however ..

p.s .. can you build up the port at all ? esp to a level 3 if possible

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(in reply to Blackie)

Post #: 2

RE: AR`s - 4/26/2006 3:39:22 AM

Mike Solli

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Cross your fingers because ARs only work if they can disband in a port. So, you need a size 3 port or larger to use them. Sorry.

(in reply to Rob Brennan UK)

Post #: 3

RE: AR`s - 4/26/2006 3:51:41 AM

dtravel

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We have conflicting claims on when ARs will work then. Some people say as long as they are in the same hex, regardless of whether there is even a base or not. Others in any base, regardless of size or disband status. And some say only when disbanded.

This is the kind of information that is supposed to included in the manual!

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to Mike Solli)

Post #: 4

RE: AR`s - 4/26/2006 4:06:27 AM

Blackie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

We have conflicting claims on when ARs will work then. Some people say as long as they are in the same hex, regardless of whether there is even a base or not. Others in any base, regardless of size or disband status. And some say only when disbanded.

This is the kind of information that is supposed to included in the manual!

Well this turn her FLT stopped growing it was growing at 1 per turn for 3 turns. So it is at 75, hope it will now decrease. I know there is a chance she will flounder anyway even if I do manage to reverse the damage. I will have to move her at least 700 miles to level 5 port.

(in reply to dtravel)

Post #: 5

RE: AR`s - 4/26/2006 4:25:53 AM

Mike Solli

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I once had a CV with 97 flt damage in Jaluit with 1 AR survive to make the long trek to Japan. Anything is possible.

(in reply to Blackie)

Post #: 6

RE: AR`s - 4/26/2006 11:08:48 PM

crsutton

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Just had the Ryuho make it to Gili-Gili (size 3 port) with about 90 flotation and 80 sys. Disbanded her there with one AR-plenty of supply. She hovered around 88-92 damage for about a week and then spiked to 98 flotation damage. I scuttled her. Personally, I think your ship is doomed. Small ports are death to heavily damaged ships. Makes sense actually.

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Post #: 7

RE: AR`s - 4/26/2006 11:35:22 PM

niceguy2005

Posts: 12523
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

We have conflicting claims on when ARs will work then. Some people say as long as they are in the same hex, regardless of whether there is even a base or not. Others in any base, regardless of size or disband status. And some say only when disbanded.

This is the kind of information that is supposed to included in the manual!

d, this is confusing, but last I heard ARs had to be disbanded at the port to help.

Blackie, if you can get a fleet HQ there pronto that might help...best of luck and keep us posted.

_____________________________

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

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Post #: 8

RE: AR`s - 4/26/2006 11:36:15 PM

Mike Solli

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She stayed in Jaluit until her flt damage was 0. Then she made the trip to Japan where she is now. Her sys damage was in the 70s. It's considerably lower now. She'll be back in service in a few months. I couldn't scuttle her because she her full complement of planes and Soryu's full complement of planes. I couldn't voluntarily kill 120 irreplacable pilots. I don't think I'd ever scuttle a CV. I don't play for points. I play to "win".

(in reply to crsutton)

Post #: 9

RE: AR`s - 4/26/2006 11:37:35 PM

Mike Solli

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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

We have conflicting claims on when ARs will work then. Some people say as long as they are in the same hex, regardless of whether there is even a base or not. Others in any base, regardless of size or disband status. And some say only when disbanded.

This is the kind of information that is supposed to included in the manual!

d, this is confusing, but last I heard ARs had to be disbanded at the port to help.

Blackie, if you can get a fleet HQ there pronto that might help...best of luck and keep us posted.

Yup, the AR has to be disbanded. In my case, I eventually put 2 ARs and a Fleet HQ in the hex to support the repair efforts. They worked.

(in reply to niceguy2005)

Post #: 10

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 12:08:15 AM

The Duke

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From: Austin, TX
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What effect does a Fleet HQ have on repair?

So, the contributing variables to ship repair I see are:

1) port size
2) ARs
3) repair shipyard/available repair points
4) fleet HQ (would multiple fleet HQ improve repair more?)
5) supply???

(in reply to Mike Solli)

Post #: 11

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 12:15:42 AM

niceguy2005

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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Duke

What effect does a Fleet HQ have on repair?

So, the contributing variables to ship repair I see are:

1) port size
2) ARs
3) repair shipyard/available repair points
4) fleet HQ (would multiple fleet HQ improve repair more?)
5) supply???

As I understand it, supply is NOT a consideration, although I can't imagine why it wouldn't be. It is for everything else.

_____________________________

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to The Duke)

Post #: 12

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 12:50:30 AM

Blackie

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I am amazed at the level of knowledge of the players on this forum. And I am also amazed at the lack of knowledge. I think Dtravel said it best this should be in the manual.
In any event I will post on this later if the ship makes it. I may try to fly in some Fleet HQ
but probably won`t know if it helps or not.

(in reply to niceguy2005)

Post #: 13

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 1:06:22 AM

dtravel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

We have conflicting claims on when ARs will work then. Some people say as long as they are in the same hex, regardless of whether there is even a base or not. Others in any base, regardless of size or disband status. And some say only when disbanded.

This is the kind of information that is supposed to included in the manual!

d, this is confusing, but last I heard ARs had to be disbanded at the port to help.

Heard from who? There is a lot of guessing going on among players and there was some incorrect information distributed on other subjects by Matrix/2by3 reps. This is why I'm doing my statistical study on ship repair, because there is so much conflicting information floating around. As it is, measuring the effect of ARs is already so hard to do that we may never be able to determine what the correct answer is by observation.

This is part of why I am so angered by the WiTP manual. In this case, we're not asking for formulas or optimal tactics. We're just trying to figure out the program mechanics to use something for its intended purpose!

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to niceguy2005)

Post #: 14

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 2:21:26 AM

Don Bowen

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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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In order to be helped by the presence of an AR, the damaged ship must be disbanded into a port. The AR itself need not be disbanded into the port but may be in a task force at the port.

(in reply to dtravel)

Post #: 15

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 3:26:31 AM

Blackie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

In order to be helped by the presence of an AR, the damaged ship must be disbanded into a port. The AR itself need not be disbanded into the port but may be in a task force at the port.

Thank You Sir short and to the point I may as well send my AR home then.

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 16

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 3:30:20 AM

benway9

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From: New York City
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so in order for an AR to have any effect, it must be at a port 3 or more? that's contrary to what i thought an AR was supposed to do. aren't they just repair ships that could be moored alongside a ship in any calm area?

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 17

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 4:10:40 AM

Belce

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From: Canada
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There also needs to be available support for an AR to do its work. Ports smaller than a size 3 would not have those available. Just like airbases of size 4 can support multi engine bombers better than a size 3 can or why fighters operate reasonably better at a size 2 compared to a size 1 airbase, infrastructure is added as the size increases.

(in reply to benway9)

Post #: 18

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 7:56:13 AM

BigJ62

Posts: 1800
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From: Alpharetta, Georgia
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

In order to be helped by the presence of an AR, the damaged ship must be disbanded into a port. The AR itself need not be disbanded into the port but may be in a task force at the port.

Does this also apply to AS, AD and AGP ships as well. Also the manual doesn't specify what ships they
can repair and service, I assume AS repairs only subs, AD repairs only DDs and so-on. BTW great job
on the patch.

Thanks...

(in reply to Don Bowen)

Post #: 19

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 11:43:43 AM

Arkady

Posts: 1262
Joined: 5/31/2002
From: 27th Penal Battalion
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quote:

ORIGINAL: The Duke

What effect does a Fleet HQ have on repair?

So, the contributing variables to ship repair I see are:

1) port size
2) ARs
3) repair shipyard/available repair points
4) fleet HQ (would multiple fleet HQ improve repair more?)
5) supply???

yep but order of importance should be as follows
1) port size
2) fleet hq (number of support squads/50 increase port size by one level for repair check)
3) AR (increase port size for repair chech by one level, each AR can support four ships, max four ARs counted)
4) Tender ship (Tender ship for DD, PT or Subs can increase port size for repair check by 2 levels !, each tender ship can support two ships, max four tenders of each type counted)
5) acumulated repair points (they are used ONLY if ship passed previous reapir check and one point of damage is repaired, then if repair points are equal or greater then ships's durability additional sys damage point is removed and repair points equal to ship's durability are expended)

I have no proof about supplies at the base affect ship's repairs, maybe except effectivness of fleet HQ...

< Message edited by Arkady -- 4/27/2006 11:45:28 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 20

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 12:00:56 PM

Arkady

Posts: 1262
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From: 27th Penal Battalion
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BigJ62

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

In order to be helped by the presence of an AR, the damaged ship must be disbanded into a port. The AR itself need not be disbanded into the port but may be in a task force at the port.

Does this also apply to AS, AD and AGP ships as well. Also the manual doesn't specify what ships they
can repair and service, I assume AS repairs only subs, AD repairs only DDs and so-on. BTW great job
on the patch.

Thanks...

check page 186 in the manual, chapter 14.2.1
there is a list of support ships/tenders and description what type of ships they support

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Post #: 21

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 12:02:02 PM

dtravel

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arkady

quote:

ORIGINAL: The Duke

What effect does a Fleet HQ have on repair?

So, the contributing variables to ship repair I see are:

1) port size
2) ARs
3) repair shipyard/available repair points
4) fleet HQ (would multiple fleet HQ improve repair more?)
5) supply???

yep but order of importance should be as follows
1) port size
2) fleet hq (number of support squads/50 increase port size by one level for repair check)
3) AR (increase port size for repair chech by one level, each AR can support four ships, max four ARs counted)
4) Tender ship (Tender ship for DD, PT or Subs can increase port size for repair check by 2 levels !, each tender ship can support two ships, max four tenders of each type counted)
5) acumulated repair points (they are used ONLY if ship passed previous reapir check and one point of damage is repaired, then if repair points are equal or greater then ships's durability additional sys damage point is removed and repair points equal to ship's durability are expended)

I have no proof about supplies at the base affect ship's repairs, maybe except effectivness of fleet HQ...

#5 is wrong. Testing has shown that the use of accumulated repair points is completely independent of "inherent" repair. Also, if the ship does make this second roll it will use up points equal to Durability+20.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to Arkady)

Post #: 22

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 12:40:08 PM

Arkady

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From: 27th Penal Battalion
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can me point to thread where are methods and results of this testing described, please

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Post #: 23

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 4:46:12 PM

Don Bowen

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From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
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quote:

Does this also apply to AS, AD and AGP ships as well

Yes

(in reply to BigJ62)

Post #: 24

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 5:26:42 PM

niceguy2005

Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

We have conflicting claims on when ARs will work then. Some people say as long as they are in the same hex, regardless of whether there is even a base or not. Others in any base, regardless of size or disband status. And some say only when disbanded.

This is the kind of information that is supposed to included in the manual!

d, this is confusing, but last I heard ARs had to be disbanded at the port to help.

Heard from who? There is a lot of guessing going on among players and there was some incorrect information distributed on other subjects by Matrix/2by3 reps. This is why I'm doing my statistical study on ship repair, because there is so much conflicting information floating around. As it is, measuring the effect of ARs is already so hard to do that we may never be able to determine what the correct answer is by observation.

This is part of why I am so angered by the WiTP manual. In this case, we're not asking for formulas or optimal tactics. We're just trying to figure out the program mechanics to use something for its intended purpose!

d, I suppose Don answered this question for us.

However, my statement above was based on previous Threads I had read on this topic as it seems to come up every other month or so.

Obviously the key is having a size 3 port as a player is likely to disband both the ship and the AR into the port.

I want to give the designers credit for this rule. To me it makes perfect sense that
1. You need a minimal size port to effectively repair a ship.
2. You need to disband (or dock the ship) at the port
3. You need the AR present, but it really doesn't need to be disbanded (though I don't know why you wouldn't).

_____________________________

Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to dtravel)

Post #: 25

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 8:11:24 PM

dtravel

Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arkady

can me point to thread where are methods and results of this testing described, please

Testing is still underway, but data collected to date is in the attached spreadsheet (in zip file). Ship Repair.zip

A quick check of Los Angeles, San Diego & Seattle are the easiest places to see, but once you know what to look for it can be observed in any of the ports with repair shipyards.

EDIT: Here is the link to my first posting of these number back in December http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1009720&key=hard%2Cnumbers

< Message edited by dtravel -- 4/27/2006 8:33:53 PM >

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to Arkady)

Post #: 26

RE: AR`s - 4/27/2006 8:13:49 PM

dtravel

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Joined: 7/7/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

d, I suppose Don answered this question for us.

However, my statement above was based on previous Threads I had read on this topic as it seems to come up every other month or so.

Obviously the key is having a size 3 port as a player is likely to disband both the ship and the AR into the port.

I want to give the designers credit for this rule. To me it makes perfect sense that
1. You need a minimal size port to effectively repair a ship.
2. You need to disband (or dock the ship) at the port
3. You need the AR present, but it really doesn't need to be disbanded (though I don't know why you wouldn't).

I'm not arguing over the logic of it (how could I? No one knew what the rule was!), just with the fact that we were not told what it is until now.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to niceguy2005)

Post #: 27

RE: AR`s - 4/28/2006 2:30:59 PM

Arkady

Posts: 1262
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From: 27th Penal Battalion
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quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arkady

can me point to thread where are methods and results of this testing described, please

Testing is still underway, but data collected to date is in the attached spreadsheet (in zip file). Ship Repair.zip

A quick check of Los Angeles, San Diego & Seattle are the easiest places to see, but once you know what to look for it can be observed in any of the ports with repair shipyards.

EDIT: Here is the link to my first posting of these number back in December http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1009720&key=hard%2Cnumbers

thanks
I already setup my own test (with Tutorial scenario) and you are right

Additional it seems that repairs with Repair Points are checked twice a day so you can reapir three points per day

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Post #: 28

RE: AR`s - 4/28/2006 10:03:07 PM

dtravel

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Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arkady

quote:

ORIGINAL: dtravel

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arkady

can me point to thread where are methods and results of this testing described, please

Testing is still underway, but data collected to date is in the attached spreadsheet (in zip file). Ship Repair.zip

A quick check of Los Angeles, San Diego & Seattle are the easiest places to see, but once you know what to look for it can be observed in any of the ports with repair shipyards.

EDIT: Here is the link to my first posting of these number back in December http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1009720&key=hard%2Cnumbers

thanks
I already setup my own test (with Tutorial scenario) and you are right

Additional it seems that repairs with Repair Points are checked twice a day so you can reapir three points per day

In theory, a ship could repair four points in one day. In my data so far there is one example of a ship repairing via Shipyard Repair Points two points (The CA while it was in San Diego) and multiple examples of ships repairing two points via inherent repair. But I wouldn't count on it happening. So far one person has reported a single instance of three points being repaired in one day but that's it.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.

(in reply to Arkady)

Post #: 29

RE: AR`s - 4/29/2006 12:03:43 AM

myros

Posts: 289
Joined: 7/1/2004
Status: offline

Always wondered about ARs in size 10 ports ... if the relative effect is to increase the port size does that mean for repairs the port size will be higher than 10? Or is it pointless to have ARs at size 10 ports if 10 is the max any calculation will take into account?

Myros

(in reply to dtravel)

Post #: 30