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RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 3/11/2006 1:44:58 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

Nice progress.

The numbers when using pilots ought to be F2, F3 and L2 L3 and L4 and NAV2, NAV3 and NAV4 though.

Can the numbers change with the use of the 'use pilots' option.

Lars

They do change depending on whether the pilot option is on or off.

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Post #: 361

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/27/2006 5:13:36 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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I am back to working on the high resolution counters for the air and naval units. An dI thought you might like to see the first pass at a group of 40 counters (counter sheet #7, rows 1 and 2).

The changes I want to make here are to make the plane images larger and move them up in the frame of the counter. Making them larger should enable them to almost touch the left and right edges.

Larger is better because then there are more pixels per plane and more detail will be visible.

Moving them up in the frame will eliminate the overlap with the range numbers/circles for the bombers and the naval air units.

Once I have the positioning perfect, I will add the names. For the fighters and the naval air units the names will go above and below. For example, P-35 Wildcat (upper left corner) will have P-35 above and Wildcat below. For the bombers and transports, both names will go below the plane image. All of these name placements are almost identical to the way they are done on the WIF FE counters.

There are still loose ends, such as how to handle the Skymaster (the transport with a range of 20). It is a large air transport and a small white infantry symbol needs to placed somewhere on the counter. CWIF used the letter L (which you see here) but I hope to do better than that.

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 362

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/27/2006 6:32:32 AM

TheDishwasher

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Very nice, very nice indeed!

Have you considered talking to the people working on the graphics for War in the Pacific? I know they have hundreds and hundreds of little images of planes and ships that may be of some use if they allow you to use them.

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Post #: 363

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/27/2006 6:47:18 AM

c92nichj

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quote:

Larger is better because then there are more pixels per plane and more detail will be visible.

I like thoose counter better than the previosly presented German ones as those are smaller and the are neatly palced within the counter.

The german ones always felt as if they where to big and almost spilling over on the map.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 364

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/27/2006 6:50:08 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheDishwasher

Very nice, very nice indeed!

Have you considered talking to the people working on the graphics for War in the Pacific? I know they have hundreds and hundreds of little images of planes and ships that may be of some use if they allow you to use them.

Thanks.

Back last July, I asked the forum members what they would like for unit depictions on the screen. I imposed no restrictions at that time. After some kicking it around, the consensus was to duplicate the WIF FE counters as closely as possible. That is what we are working on now.

I am loathe to reconsider design decisions that have been rendered into code. There are always new possibilities oozing out of the woodwork. This is especially true of computer generated graphics.

So, I will go back to my mantra: generate possibilities, examine alternatives, choose a design, document that design, then write code to that design. Do not go back and redesign, for you will be sucked into an infinite loop.

If you are interested, I am currently soliciting ideas and opinions on how to layout the different forms on the screen when the game is in progress.

It is my normal process to ask forum members for ideas and to let them critique works in progress. That is not done frivilously either. A lot of the fundamental elements of MWIF have come from forum members' ideas. Of course, I reserve the right for the final decision on everything. Though on occasion, a mutinous group of forum members have persuaded me to go against what I liked best. You see, I believe there is a difference between what I like best and what is best.

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Post #: 365

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/27/2006 6:53:09 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

quote:

Larger is better because then there are more pixels per plane and more detail will be visible.

I like thoose counter better than the previosly presented German ones as those are smaller and the are neatly palced within the counter.

The german ones always felt as if they where to big and almost spilling over on the map.

No attempt had been made to center the earlier german ones at all.

I intend for there to be "white space" around the image so it doesn't look crowded. However, there are a few counters that need to have so much information on them, they inevitably will look crowded - they will be the exception though, not the rule.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 366

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/27/2006 12:31:02 PM

TheDishwasher

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Joined: 2/22/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I am loathe to reconsider design decisions that have been rendered into code. There are always new possibilities oozing out of the woodwork. This is especially true of computer generated graphics.

So, I will go back to my mantra: generate possibilities, examine alternatives, choose a design, document that design, then write code to that design. Do not go back and redesign, for you will be sucked into an infinite loop.

Fair enough. I try to code to the same standard, so I fully understand.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 367

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/27/2006 12:51:41 PM

wodin

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WOW......

The first plane counters you put up I wasnt to impressed with (though I knew it was a WiP).

These however are superb.

This is starting to look like one hell of a game.

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Post #: 368

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/29/2006 4:00:59 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here is one screen shot with the high res air unit counters (final version I believe). Changes from the last screen shots are:

1 - the plane images are 15% larger and have been raised within the frame to accommodate the text better
2 - the planes have been anti-aliased which makes lines appear sharper to the human eye
3 - I have added the official names and the "also known as" names
4 - the colored circles do not have an outline (that makes them cleaner looking at lower levels of zoom.

Attachment (1)

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Steve

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Post #: 369

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/29/2006 6:32:40 AM

Greyshaft

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What font are you using on the counters?

While we're at it... what font are you using for "Cincinnati" in the background? Looks like a variable-point Hiccup

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Post #: 370

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/29/2006 6:34:02 AM

Zorachus99

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Not just good.

WIF Fantasies come true!

I get sentimental about this project because it's been so long in the coming.

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Post #: 371

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/29/2006 10:58:52 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Greyshaft

What font are you using on the counters?

While we're at it... what font are you using for "Cincinnati" in the background? Looks like a variable-point Hiccup

Arial Narrow - bold, and Verdana

I need the first because some of the German air units have very long also-known-as names.

Is there a cure for hiccups?

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Post #: 372

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/29/2006 10:59:09 AM

Froonp

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quote:

2 - the planes have been anti-aliased which makes lines appear sharper to the human eye

And prettier too. The antialiasing is great here !!!

The pictures appear more clean, less sharp.

quote:

3 - I have added the official names and the "also known as" names

Love it !!!

quote:

4 - the colored circles do not have an outline (that makes them cleaner looking at lower levels of zoom.

Darn good idea ! I didn't realize that the outlines had disappeared, I just found them better !

I think this is a very good improvement.

Have you got some ships to show too ?

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Post #: 373

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/29/2006 11:46:32 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

2 - the planes have been anti-aliased which makes lines appear sharper to the human eye

And prettier too. The antialiasing is great here !!! The pictures appear more clean, less sharp.

quote:

3 - I have added the official names and the "also known as" names

Love it !!!

quote:

4 - the colored circles do not have an outline (that makes them cleaner looking at lower levels of zoom.

Darn good idea ! I didn't realize that the outlines had disappeared, I just found them better !

I think this is a very good improvement.

Have you got some ships to show too ?

Are there ships in this game?

The graphics artist and I are devising a system to get the air units registered perfectly. Well, not perfectly, but very near to perfect. Some of the air units contain a lot of stuff and the clearance is very close to get it all to be legible. If you look at some of the USA's strategic bombers you will see that ADG struggled with this problem when they created the cardboard counters for WIF FE.

This seems readily doable, but it might take a couple of iterations. I need the plane images moved somewhere between 4 and 6 pixels higher within the frame.

I am also going to have to go through all the names for the air units and insert delimiters to indicate where to break the names into pieces. Some problem names are: Spitfire XVI, Beaufighter, Superfortress, Flying Fortress, Shiken-kai, ME262 A-2a, Hurricaine IIC. I'm working on refining the system I have developed so it will handle all the diverse naming conventions that were in common usage during the war.

Ah, for the days of programming the names for the Union forces in the American Civil War: X/5/3 was the X Corp, 5th division, 3rd brigade. Now there's a naming system that every programmer can love.

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Post #: 374

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/29/2006 11:48:01 AM

tigercub

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just one thing! nice work...keep it up the money is ready.

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Post #: 375

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/29/2006 12:28:44 PM

wodin

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It gets better and better.

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Post #: 376

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/30/2006 12:28:25 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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How I have spent the last couple of days.

As you can see there are difficulties with adding the text and numbers to the bombers. These air units were specifically chosen because they are some of the hardest to do - just a lot of stuff to be placed in one small 96 by 96 pixel counter.

I will have to move the plane graphic up for some of these, mostly for the planes with extended range. That will solve the overlap problem for most of the range numbers. Alternatively, I will have to reposition the range number for some of the ATR units (e.g., Italian plane in the lower right corner).

Meanwhile I have two problems with the names. First, my naive decision to use blanks as separators failed completely with the Italians. Those should be P 108A, P 108B, and SM 82, for example. With the Also-Known-As portion of the name Piaggio, Piaggio, and Marsupiale, respectively. The second problem with the names is a need to hyphenate Mitchell, Dominator, and the like. That's how it was done for the WIF FE counters.

This will require a lot of attention to detail, given that there are over 1200 unique air units in the game. Sigh.

Notice the tankbusters with the red circles and the flying boats with the blue circles. I really like them (I hope you do too).

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 377

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/30/2006 2:13:13 PM

scout1

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quote:

If you are interested, I am currently soliciting ideas and opinions on how to layout the different forms on the screen when the game is in progress.

Indiviual windows would be nice, but probably a mother for you .....

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Post #: 378

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/30/2006 2:16:10 PM

scout1

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I have to agree, the graphics/layout of these counters is nothing less than stunning ....

Dumb OT question (No I'm not asking for any change), but why do we make counters for pc games square instead of hexagonal ? It would have been nice for thecarboard ones to be hexagontal as they would have fit in the squares, next to each other better ....

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Post #: 379

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/30/2006 3:43:44 PM

Froonp

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quote:

Meanwhile I have two problems with the names. First, my naive decision to use blanks as separators failed completely with the Italians. Those should be P 108A, P 108B, and SM 82, for example. With the Also-Known-As portion of the name Piaggio, Piaggio, and Marsupiale, respectively. The second problem with the names is a need to hyphenate Mitchell, Dominator, and the like. That's how it was done for the WIF FE counters.

Those Italian bombers names could be modificated in your Unit file by removing the blank space and putting a dot.
Anyway, that's the way they were written usually.
P 108A is P.108A, SM 82 is SM.82, etc...

It may also fail with the German planes if there is a space within the name (Bf 109E). In that case, simply remove the blank space.

quote:

Notice the tankbusters with the red circles and the flying boats with the blue circles. I really like them (I hope you do too).

I love them too !
I also love that the the black outline is absent for the circles, except for the yellow circles on yellow background (Chinese P-36).
I love the blue circle and don't care if it is nearly on the tail of the NAV bomber depicted. It is great !!!!
The extended ranges are great to without outlines !!!!

For the names of the LND bombers, maybe you could put the usual name (Mitchell, Dominator, etc...) on the top of the counter, as for the NAV, and lower the picture by a couple of pixels.
I think that we don't care if the right wing is partialy covered by the range circle.

Or better, for both the NAVs and the LND, put the designation on the top (A-20, B-25, A-31) as for the Fighters, and the usual name (Boston, Mitchell, Vengeance) on the bottom where the designation is presently.
This would be more consistent within all the planes.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 4/30/2006 3:46:29 PM >

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Post #: 380

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/30/2006 6:06:18 PM

macgregor

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Awesome looking planes! My thoughts about counter detail were that as long as there was some way to open a counter into a full-screen graphic (something I think you're working on as well) I would be happy with them even if they were simplified on the board(for speed). I'm thilled you were able to put them on the pieces though.

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Post #: 381

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/30/2006 9:37:57 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: scout1

I have to agree, the graphics/layout of these counters is nothing less than stunning ....

Dumb OT question (No I'm not asking for any change), but why do we make counters for pc games square instead of hexagonal ? It would have been nice for thecarboard ones to be hexagontal as they would have fit in the squares, next to each other better ....

If the counters filled the hex completely, then you would not be able to see the underlying terrain. If the counters are make hexagonal but a smaller size, then the map would be very strange to look at with all the hexagons within hexagons. The human eye detects different patterns easily, so the hexagonal shapes are interpreted as terrain and the rectangular shapes as units. Shape => Game element.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 382

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - 4/30/2006 9:56:26 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Those Italian bombers names could be modificated in your Unit file by removing the blank space and putting a dot.
Anyway, that's the way they were written usually.
P 108A is P.108A, SM 82 is SM.82, etc...

It may also fail with the German planes if there is a space within the name (Bf 109E). In that case, simply remove the blank space.

For the names of the LND bombers, maybe you could put the usual name (Mitchell, Dominator, etc...) on the top of the counter, as for the NAV, and lower the picture by a couple of pixels.
I think that we don't care if the right wing is partialy covered by the range circle.

Or better, for both the NAVs and the LND, put the designation on the top (A-20, B-25, A-31) as for the Fighters, and the usual name (Boston, Mitchell, Vengeance) on the bottom where the designation is presently.
This would be more consistent within all the planes.

Removing the blanks by replacing them with periods and collapsing them for the Germans are excellent suggestions and much better than what I had come up with so far. Will do. Thanks.

Repositioning the official and Also Known As names won't work though. There just isn't enough room available on some of the counters. Obscuring the plane's wing with the extended range arrow is unacceptable to me. I would fret about it forever.

The standard is actually to have the official names at the bottom of the unit. Only the fighters have it at the top. To move it to the bottom for the fighters means moving the location of the range for the fighters. Now that is trivial to program but it deviates from the WIF FE location and I am trying to maintain continuity between MWIF and WIF FE whenever reasonably possible.

On the plus side, I see the design for all the fighters, naval air, and carrier air units as done at this point. Most of the ATRs are good to go too with the exception of the large transports and a few other weirdos. It is only the bombers that are difficult. When all is said and done, I like ADG's solution (WIF FE) for the bombers best. Place the AKA names on the left and hyphenate them. This will only require special attention for 40 or 50 planes can be done in a couple of hours at most.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 383

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - Camo ? - 5/1/2006 3:38:53 AM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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Hello,

Watching at the planes profiles closer, I spotted something strange.
Look at the picture below.
The top couple of planes are from your latest screenshot.
The middle one is from a scan of the actual countersheet.
The last one is a screenshot from the PDF version of the countersheet found in ADG's Companion CD 2.

Why is there this difference in the camouflage of the planes ?

It is not limited to those planes, all the planes have strange camouflages.
Here, the F2A & P-40 camo looks like a tiger skin.
Is there something the graphic artist is doing that distord the camo ?

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 384

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - Camo ? - 5/1/2006 6:20:37 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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Yes. It appears that Rob is working from some other variation of the counter sheets that he found on Harry's disk. I have told him about the problem.

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 385

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - Camo ? - 5/1/2006 11:08:25 AM

Froonp

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I have a scan of every CS7 that was published (1992, 1993, 1996, 2000), and none of them has this kind of Zebra camo.
Are you sure it is not the processing that he does with the graphics to take them from the original file that does that ???

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 386

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - Camo ? - 5/1/2006 1:24:25 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

I have a scan of every CS7 that was published (1992, 1993, 1996, 2000), and none of them has this kind of Zebra camo.
Are you sure it is not the processing that he does with the graphics to take them from the original file that does that ???

Rob has access to a lot of the variations that were never offically published.

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Post #: 387

RE: Unit Depictions on Screen - Camo ? - 5/3/2006 4:26:55 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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The code for putting the high resolution naval units on the screen is done. Not all the counters have been converted from the WIF FE computer graphics to MWIF bitmaps, but enough that I know the code works.

Here is part of the US navy and some of the accompanying carrier air units. I have them spread out for your viewing pleasure.

The numbers inside of squares indicate the carrier class. The carrier air units with a black 7 square fit on a carrier with a black 7 square. There are more rules about this, but that is the general idea.

I haven't done the convoy, naval transport, amphibious unit, and submarine counters yet. For them, I will be using just a single bitmap each. Conversely, every named naval unit has a unique picture (bitmap).