Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
The Declare War Step (Sequence of play D.2.1 / Chapter 9) is composed of (and performed in that order) :
- Declare War (9)
- Aligning minors (9.8)
You have them in the wrong order in your picture.

Actually these two items do not have a set order in CIWF or MWIF. The player can either one first. I wasn't sure how to handle that graphically and since it doesn't appear elsewhere in the sequence of play I intended to simply include a text note somewhere - you know a little asterisk or dagger pointing to a separate "Note: ...."

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Page 2 again :

The "Emergency HQ Supply" box (Rule 2.4.3, Option 13) is some sort of Joker that you can pull out whenever you want.
It is not declared in any way at the place you put it in page 2 (just after "Attack Declaration").

Typically it is announced prior to Ground Strikes (to allow out of supply FTRs to intercept the raid) or prior to Land Combats (just before the calculation, after the enemy has announced all support).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
In Page 2 :

The "Include Sea Boxes" box (Rule 11.5.5) should be before the "Surprise Points" box (Rule 11.5.6) (after the "Search" Box).

This piece of the sequence of play has some things happening simultaneously. The surprise points box is for indicating when the are determined, not when they are used. I am thinking of adding some indication of where surprise points can be used. Indeed, I am thinking of making separate sequence of play subsections for the 3 possible naval combat types: air, surface, and subs.

Getting back to your point, as part of the search rolls, the surprise points are calculated and in some instances, the combat type is determined without either player having any choice. The player who gets the upper hand in the search rolls has surprise points available and can use them at different places in the naval combat sequence. He also may be able to control the type of naval combat and select which sea boxes are involved in the combat. I believe the order that I have is ok, though others might work just as well.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
In the Naval Combat sequence.
There is no "Roll for Result" step per see. It should be "Cross Reference the Table for Results".

The "Assign Damage" box should be followed by a "Defense Roll" box, who should either loop back to Assign damage, or go to the "Abort or Continue" box.

How about 3 boxes, in this order: Firepower Effectiveness, Choose Targets, Roll for Damage?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Port Attack is not really a Naval Air Mission.
You should not mix both, as it may confuse people.

This is another case of all the good words already having been taken and needing to use others that aren't quite as precise. I copped out by using Naval Air Missions twice with different thoughts behind them. How about we use Naval Air Assignements for the primary box (IV)?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Page 2 again.

In the "Land Combat" Sequence.

The "Notional Unit" box should come just after the "Attack Declaration" Box (Rule 11.16 for the decision & 11.14 for the calculation). YES

Anyway, the player who has this decision to take should have a knowledge of how many shore bombardement points he has, the enemy has, how many ground support points each have.
The program should have a way to tell him the potential support. [Not part of this task - a separate isssue.]

For the Shore Bombardment, the Defensive player must announce it first (16.11), so maybe your "A/D Shore Bombardment" box should be "D/A Shore Bombardment" ? YES


Same for HQ Support. Defensive player first (16.11). YES

Maybe the "Assign Damage" box should have a daughter box labelled "Choose shattered / Retreat" to mark the moment when the player choose if shattered units are really shattered, or if he prefers to retreat them.

Then another Daughter box called "Retreat enemy units".

And then the "Advance after Combat" box.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Page 4 now.

The "Load Transport" box should be place at 2 places.
It should be placed before the "Move Naval Units" box AND after the "Attempt Intercepts".
Loading units in ships can be performed at both moments.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
The "Load Transport" box should be place at 2 places.
It should be placed before the "Move Naval Units" box AND after the "Attempt Intercepts".
Loading units in ships can be performed at both moments.

Ok, but I want different names for these. The first in done while in port and the second is done while at sea.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

In an air action in a naval battle, both sides can choose a voluntary abort to the sea box after each set of combat resolve rolls. The aircraft so aborted are available for the next round searching. If one side decides to voluntarily abort to the sea box, the other side's bombers, if any, are automatically cleared through to bomb.

Reasons to perform such an abort would be to avoid further fighting or hoping to get a better search roll split etc. in the next round.

I believe this also requires a flowchart box.

Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
The Declare War Step (Sequence of play D.2.1 / Chapter 9) is composed of (and performed in that order) :
- Declare War (9)
- Aligning minors (9.8)
You have them in the wrong order in your picture.

Actually these two items do not have a set order in CIWF or MWIF. The player can either one first. I wasn't sure how to handle that graphically and since it doesn't appear elsewhere in the sequence of play I intended to simply include a text note somewhere - you know a little asterisk or dagger pointing to a separate "Note: ...."

Rule 1.1 says :
"We have arranged these rules in sequence-of-play order. "
In the rule, the part about Aligning is 9.8, the part of Declaring War is 9.2.

This is important that the right order be followed by MWiF.
When you Declare War on Yugoslavia for example, the Rumanian Counters are set up, and all other declarations of war are done. When declarations of War are done, you can Align ONE neutral minor (provided the rule allow you).
Thus, the Yugoslavian are set up without knowing if the German will align Bulgaria or Rumania, and so must set up its troop guessing.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
The "Load Transport" box should be place at 2 places.
It should be placed before the "Move Naval Units" box AND after the "Attempt Intercepts".
Loading units in ships can be performed at both moments.

Ok, but I want different names for these. The first in done while in port and the second is done while at sea.

How about : "Load from shore" ?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
In Page 2 :

The "Include Sea Boxes" box (Rule 11.5.5) should be before the "Surprise Points" box (Rule 11.5.6) (after the "Search" Box).

This piece of the sequence of play has some things happening simultaneously. The surprise points box is for indicating when the are determined, not when they are used. I am thinking of adding some indication of where surprise points can be used. Indeed, I am thinking of making separate sequence of play subsections for the 3 possible naval combat types: air, surface, and subs.

Getting back to your point, as part of the search rolls, the surprise points are calculated and in some instances, the combat type is determined without either player having any choice. The player who gets the upper hand in the search rolls has surprise points available and can use them at different places in the naval combat sequence. He also may be able to control the type of naval combat and select which sea boxes are involved in the combat. I believe the order that I have is ok, though others might work just as well.

Yes, but you must choose the enemy sea boxes you will include in combat (if the enemy has not found) BEFORE surprise be computed. This is obvious, as surprise calculation needs to know the Higher Sea Box number of each party.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
The Declare War Step (Sequence of play D.2.1 / Chapter 9) is composed of (and performed in that order) :
- Declare War (9)
- Aligning minors (9.8)

Actually these two items do not have a set order in CIWF or MWIF. The player can either one first. I wasn't sure how to handle that graphically and since it doesn't appear elsewhere in the sequence of play I intended to simply include a text note somewhere - you know a little asterisk or dagger pointing to a separate "Note: ...."

Rule 1.1 says :
"We have arranged these rules in sequence-of-play order. "
In the rule, the part about Aligning is 9.8, the part of Declaring War is 9.2.
This is important that the right order be followed by MWiF.

Ok. Then CWIF, and MWIF presently, is doing this wrong, since the phasing player can do them in either order.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

The aircraft voluntary abort to the sea box might be placed on your chart page 3, air mission sequence, to the right of the

assign damage box.

It only applies to naval air fights though, and then leads to another search roll.

Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

With the separation of land air battles and sea air battles in the charts, the voluntary abort to sea area seems already resolved.
The new page 5 abort or continue for the air combat can automatically perform the abort to the sea box function so no additional box would be required.

On page 4, the TRS loading at sea is also subject to search, actually the seactrh does not take place until after the TRS has loaded a cargo.

Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
On page 4, the TRS loading at sea is also subject to search, actually the seactrh does not take place until after the TRS has loaded a cargo.
Lars

Perhaps it would be better if I pulled the Intercept box out to the right and had arrows pointing to it from both the move and load at sea boxes?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
On page 4, the TRS loading at sea is also subject to search, actually the seactrh does not take place until after the TRS has loaded a cargo.
Lars

Perhaps it would be better if I pulled the Intercept box out to the right and had arrows pointing to it from both the move and load at sea boxes?

Why ?
Intercept is only triggered by naval move.
Search is already included in the Naval Combat subsection.
It is OK as is.
But you can put the Intercept section out to the right, it would be clearer.
But no arrow pointing from the "Load" box to the "Intecept" Box.

Let me make my point :

1.a) Ships Move.
1.b) They get intercepted or not (if their move led them into new Sea Area).
3.c) When the move is over (after interception and interception combat), they can load units from some shores.
2) When all this (Move + loading -- which is part of moving) is over, Naval combat may be declared.

No ship may embark units on shores without first performing a Naval move, even if that naval move is moving from Section 4 to Section 3 of the Sea Area.

And a Ship who moves is then subject to interception if he is entering a new Sea Area, or Subject to Naval Combat Declaration from the enemy, because he moved.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
My understanding of the rules is that the TRS moves into a sea area where it can be searched for, and after that search, if it failed, if there was no search, or if it fought through successfully, the TRS can continue to another Sea area. In that sea area it stops and loads a unit from shore. When the game has progressed through whatever searches the active player wants to make in various sea areas, the inactive player can now search for the loaded TRS since that sea area received new units by the active player.

quote:

Alternatively the TRS could have just moved to a lower sea box in the same area it was already present in order to load a unit from shore.

If a TRS moves into a sea area where it can be intercepted, and then if not found continues into a port where it loads a unit and then again enters the same sea area, my understanding is that it can be intercept searched for again.
Lars

quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin

My understanding of the rules is that the TRS moves into a sea area where it can be searched for, and after that search, if it failed, if there was no search, or if it fought through successfully, the TRS can continue to another Sea area. In that sea area it stops and loads a unit from shore. When the game has progressed through whatever searches the active player wants to make in various sea areas, the inactive player can now search for the loaded TRS since that sea area received new units by the active player.

Alternatively the TRS could have just moved to a lower sea box in the same area it was already present in order to load a unit from shore.

If a TRS moves into a sea area where it can be intercepted, and then if not found continues into a port where it loads a unit and then again enters the same sea area, my understanding is that it can be intercept searched for again.


Lars

quote:

Thanks for the clarification. With Patrice's comment below, my previous understanding of the rule(s) was correct. Therefore I will leave the diagram as is, because:

1 - naval interception occurs during the naval movement phase only.

quote:

2 - naval search occurs in 3 places: if interception is attempted, during the phasing player's naval combat phase, and during the non-phasing player's naval combat phase.

quote:

3 - the third search opportunity is part of the naval combat diagram, and not part of the naval movement diagram.

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4 - it is the third search opportunity that applies to naval units that have loaded units while at sea.