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RE: History or Balance

 
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[Poll]

History or Balance


A scenario that is as unbalanced as necessary to be as historically ac
  72% (132)
A scenario that still has the flavor of the historical participants (s
  27% (51)


Total Votes : 183


(last vote on : 5/25/2006 10:49:53 PM)
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RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 12:35:37 AM   
Ursa MAior

 

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That it so typical of you. Instead speaking from your own (non-existing) experience you quote. Why dont you and your fruitcake in crime leave this community alone? Why do you want to spoil our fun? Why do you think your opinion matters, when you haven not even invested in this game?

Well carry on Demosthenes, and the word american will become a word as hated as soviet. It will be a great shame, shame on you and your likes.

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Post #: 151
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 12:42:51 AM   
Demosthenes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ursa MAior

That it so typical of you. Instead speaking from your own (non-existing) experience you quote. Why dont you and your fruitcake in crime leave this community alone? Why do you want to spoil our fun? Why do you think your opinion matters, when you haven not even invested in this game?

Well carry on Demosthenes, and the word american will become a word as hated as soviet. It will be a great shame, shame on you and your likes.


Look, I have unilaterally burried the hatchet publically long ago (not that I felt I was being any worse than those I was arguing with)

- I don't know why you hate me. But I can't help that.

Have a nice day

< Message edited by Demosthenes -- 5/18/2006 12:44:26 AM >


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Post #: 152
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 12:58:00 AM   
Ursa MAior

 

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I dont hate you. I will anytime drink a beer and chat with you until you dont start with your fanatism. I am a christian, so I dont hate people. What I hate is fanatism and arrogance.

We easterners had our share of the style you are communicating on. Way more than enough. IIRC none of us ever tried to place himself above others.

I can bury the hatchet too, somehow missed the previous one, but beg you to try to argue and not state. There is a saying in hungarian it translates to english as 'opens the switchblade in my pocket.' Well I feel that when I see posts like yours and mdiehl's. We were treated and spoken to by the occupying soviets this way.

If we quote Shattered Sword again and again remember one of its best lines :"In an age of unquestioned US naval supremacy (you can replace it with military supremacy -my remark-), it is hard to imagine that there were times, when it was not only questioned, but non-existent.

If you speak in the spirit of this I wont jump on you again I promise.

Uff The Big Bear has spoken (who is a he btw).

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Post #: 153
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 1:09:09 AM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

Hmmm. Good point. I am unfamiliar with the KB performance versus the British fleet units in the Indian Ocean operation. How would you rate them there?


I'd rate them quite highly. But as I recall, vs Exeter and whatsisnuts there was a 2 CV strike and again vs Hermes a 2 CV strike. The other major well coordinated >2 CV strike was vs. Columbo (the port that is). I do think that having a non-moving target greatly simplifies the calculus.

[Me: You need to read Shattered Sword if you have not.]

quote:

I have. <snip> I have, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.


Bueno, I couldn't be sure. No harm intended.

quote:

However, the idea is to launch a (credible) strike as soon as possible. That might turn out to be too late, especially if the enemy has spotted you first. But you won't (generally) know that until the events have played themselves out. Strike! Strike early! Or get the heck out of dodge.


Sure. To do so Nagumo would have to have NOT brought the spotted anti-ship strike back into he hangers for the Midway strike. And, Nagumo would have had to do something that was manifestly contrary to Japanese doctrine. Which is why I can't fault Nagumo in particular, and why I can't get behind the idea that this was a small local error that might well have gone differently but for better flash judgement. That is, I don't subscribe to the "given a better dice roll things might have gone differently with that decision" model. I don't think "some other dice roll" could have occurred. Because it was Japanese doctrine at work, rather than a flash judgement between two alternative courses of action well known to the IJN. "Fast, small strikes" weren't in the IJN play book, even in the appendix.

quote:

Nagumo did not strike as soon as he could have. He could have struck (with the reserve group) before the fatefull 10AM USN attack. But he dithered in an attempt to get the largest strike package possible together. But that was not the correct doctrine. He needed speed, not power. (The disjointed USN attacks showed that it was possible to be successfull with smaller sized attacks.)


But that was the point in Shattered Sword. He really could not have struck back because after 8 AM he was constantly cycling CAP and his ships were evading attacks.

quote:

The range was fairly short as it was. If I recall, when the Hiryu started launching (at about noon?) the range had fallen to about 100 miles. 2 hours (10am to noon) steaming time is what, 50 miles? Both sides closing (*thinks out loud*)... So, 250-280 miles at 9 AM. Doesnt that seem to be the optimum range for IJN? PH attack was the same range, and they expected a bigger counter attack then...


They were much closer when the Hiryu strike was launched because both Nagumo and Spruance/Fletcher had closed range. 250-280 does not seem to me to be optimal range for the IJN. It's too long. You can optimize against a land installation because islands don't move. Against moving targets that may change course, especially given the reptilian quality of the Japanese recon reports that morning, anyone would have closed the range.

quote:

True, launch and recovery operations that morning were hectic. However, I am gonna guess that they could have made time, if there was a fire brand on the bridge... I forget, and could be wrong about this. But I think there was time, somewhere.


Sure you can make time available but at what cost? You must both forego cycling your cap or you steer your ship in a straight line into the wind. At the time nobody knew for sure that a B17 from 10K couldn't hit a proverbial bull in the ass with a bass fiddle. And who knows, with a non-maneuvering target maybe even a B17 could hit one. Then there were the torpedo bombers. At Coral Sea the US TBDs put seven torps into that Japanese CVL. So the TBDs were rightly viewed as a compelling threat and you have to maneuver to dodge torps or you have to keep up a good CAP cycle.

quote:

Again, the 7:45 time was to beat the American punch.


Sure but that could EASILY have been badly botched. If you launch at the obviously erroneous contact report then you risk wasting an entire launch. Japanese radios weren't particularly reliable (something which factored into Midway in multiple ways), and given the vague contact report Nagumo would have wanted to avoid a repeat of the Sims/Neosho attack at Coral Sea (two US ships reported as a CV and a CA were respectively a DD and an oiler). So from Nagumo's POV, launching at 7:45 was a high risk idea. I can't blame him for not deviating from doctrine in order to launch a quicky assault on an enemy TF of unknown composition in an obviously erroneous position report.

quote:

That does not mean that any time after that, he could not have launched, or that a partial strike launched before 10am would not have done any good. Of course it would have.


I think it does indicate that he could not have launched before 10 AM. At least not rationally. He'd have just have to have gambled on a hunch that the ambiguous contact report would lead his air groups to a real threat.

The other thing to remember here is Midway itself. People often overlook the fact that as an unsinkable deck, Midway potentially dominated the waters around it for hundreds of miles. It was home to some 180 a.c. at the time. Had they all been PBYs and B17s for scouting, and SBDs and F4Fs for attacking, I submit that Nagumo's force would have been badly hurt whether any American CVs would show up at all. And the Japanese knew that before the battle began, and they expected to have to follow up their first strike on Midway with a second strike, before the battle began.

quote:

The two puny strikes (less then 30 strike aircraft) from the Hiryu later show that. It's just that, after 8am, the American strikes were inbound, and he was in for a world of trouble.


Assuming everything goes right, the strike package finds Yorktown, and damages or sinks her. Nagumo still loses three CVs (because as you note trouble was already on the way). And when trouble arrives he has less CAP (because he's been launching a strike rather than cycling CAP). I can't see how this materially affects the outcome of the battle.

quote:

What, then, was the purpose of holding out half of the aircraft in the KB from the midway strike, if it was not to attack (or counter attack) other threats, as or when they materialise? Does this not indicate that the "doctrine" was not as inflexible as you make it seem?


The operational plan was a really bad operational plan. It required the Japanese to obtain perfect results and time all launches and recoveries perfectly. The op plan held that half the planes would be armed for attacks against ships but of course expected that said ships would never show up. Likewise planners expected the first attack to be more or less insufficient to suppress Midway and that those a.c. held as an anti-ship strike would probably have to be rearmed for anti island duty.

The long and the short of it was that the Japanese sent 4 CVs to do the job of 6 (or I think more realistically 7) CVs *and they knew that they were sending an inadequate force for the job.* As a result the 4 Japanese CVs were multitasking a suite of mutually incompatible missions (given the available force) on the assumption that one of these missions (anti ship) 'really wasn't going to be needed anyhow.' Because it was assumed that the US ships would be wherever Yamamoto wanted them to be.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 154
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 1:31:53 AM   
spence

 

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The IJN gamed the battle beforehand. The "badguy (USN) team" did substantially what the the USN did IRL. They beat up KB to some degree sufficient that it looked like the great "master plan" wouldn't work. I'm not sure if it was done by direct order of Adm Yamamoto but in any case the umpires for the game "gave back" a sunken carrier or two and reprimanded the "bad guys" for trying to win. The game was then restarted, the master plan was executed, the Japanese won and all parties concerned lived happily ever after.

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 155
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 1:33:39 AM   
Ursa MAior

 

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Prime example of victory disease.

Edited for spelling.

< Message edited by Ursa MAior -- 5/18/2006 1:37:28 AM >


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Post #: 156
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 1:36:45 AM   
Nomad


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I hope I don't get scorched too badly here. I thought that when the leaders of the first IJN Midway strike returned they wanted a second strike. What I remember is that Nagumo ordered the anti-ship aircraft on board to be armed for a ground attack on Midway. Then part way through that rearming came the reports of USN ships. This is where, I think, Nagumo ended up with some anti-ship armed aircraft and some ground attack armed aircraft. The initial idea was to rearm the aircraft on the CVs while the first strike force was landing. Then, the second ground attack would launch while the first group would be rearmed as anti-ship attacking reserve. Since no reports of USN ships had been received, it probably seemed like a good idea. Of course, the Midway based aircraft attacks and the sightings in the middle of all this really messed things up.

BTW, if you look at secion 2.0 of the manual, you fine the term "simulation" used to describe WitP.

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Post #: 157
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 1:38:06 AM   
spence

 

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quote:

Prime example of victory sickness.


Now let's see, which would the IJN Staff have preferred: history or balance?


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Post #: 158
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 1:45:09 AM   
Ursa MAior

 

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None. Outright gameyness was their style.

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Post #: 159
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 1:47:35 AM   
mdiehl

 

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quote:

I hope I don't get scorched too badly here. I thought that when the leaders of the first IJN Midway strike returned they wanted a second strike. What I remember is that Nagumo ordered the anti-ship aircraft on board to be armed for a ground attack on Midway. Then part way through that rearming came the reports of USN ships. This is where, I think, Nagumo ended up with some anti-ship armed aircraft and some ground attack armed aircraft. The initial idea was to rearm the aircraft on the CVs while the first strike force was landing. Then, the second ground attack would launch while the first group would be rearmed as anti-ship attacking reserve. Since no reports of USN ships had been received, it probably seemed like a good idea. Of course, the Midway based aircraft attacks and the sightings in the middle of all this really messed things up.


That sounds partly right from what I've read. One of the many added details from Shattered Sword is that apparently Nagumo and just about everyone else suspected *in advance* that they'd need to hit Midway a second time. The bomb-carrying Kates weren't very precise by anyone's standards as level bombers, relying essentially on pattern bombing and saturation (for which they were inadequate in number, payload, and accuracy). So ultimately the Yeoman Work had to be done by the Vals. And there weren't enough Vals in the island attack force to do the job.

So Nagumo had the anti-ship reserve rearmed for anti-ground work. In the middle of that the initial contact report arrived, and some fraction of that anti-ship force had not been reamred with GP bombs. But in any case, according to Shattered Sword, there wasn't enough time to get any kind of strike off once the decision to rearm the force for attacking Midway had been made.

< Message edited by mdiehl -- 5/18/2006 1:52:37 AM >


_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

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Post #: 160
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 1:47:47 AM   
Demosthenes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I hope I don't get scorched too badly here. I thought that when the leaders of the first IJN Midway strike returned they wanted a second strike. What I remember is that Nagumo ordered the anti-ship aircraft on board to be armed for a ground attack on Midway. Then part way through that rearming came the reports of USN ships. This is where, I think, Nagumo ended up with some anti-ship armed aircraft and some ground attack armed aircraft. The initial idea was to rearm the aircraft on the CVs while the first strike force was landing. Then, the second ground attack would launch while the first group would be rearmed as anti-ship attacking reserve. Since no reports of USN ships had been received, it probably seemed like a good idea. Of course, the Midway based aircraft attacks and the sightings in the middle of all this really messed things up.

BTW, if you look at secion 2.0 of the manual, you fine the term "simulation" used to describe WitP.

I think that was based on Fuchidas(?) account - and included the story of the CVs blowing up with all the armed planes on deck going up like a torch. This became the conventional wisdom for years...
But - appearantly that's not exactly correct.

The best recent account I have read about Midway is: (no longer have the link)
SET AND DRIFT


DOCTRINE MATTERS WHY THE JAPANESE LOST AT MIDWAY
Jonathan B. Parshall, David D. Dickson, and Anthony P. Tully
Naval War College Review, Summer 2001, Vol. LIV, No. 3




< Message edited by Demosthenes -- 5/18/2006 1:49:56 AM >


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RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 1:50:49 AM   
Nomad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

I hope I don't get scorched too badly here. I thought that when the leaders of the first IJN Midway strike returned they wanted a second strike. What I remember is that Nagumo ordered the anti-ship aircraft on board to be armed for a ground attack on Midway. Then part way through that rearming came the reports of USN ships. This is where, I think, Nagumo ended up with some anti-ship armed aircraft and some ground attack armed aircraft. The initial idea was to rearm the aircraft on the CVs while the first strike force was landing. Then, the second ground attack would launch while the first group would be rearmed as anti-ship attacking reserve. Since no reports of USN ships had been received, it probably seemed like a good idea. Of course, the Midway based aircraft attacks and the sightings in the middle of all this really messed things up.

BTW, if you look at secion 2.0 of the manual, you fine the term "simulation" used to describe WitP.

I think that was based on Fuchidas(?) account - and included the story of the CVs blowing up with all the armed planes on deck going up like a torch. This became the conventional wisdom for years...
But - appearantly that's not exactly correct.

The best recent account I have read about Midway is: (no longer have the link)
SET AND DRIFT


DOCTRINE MATTERS WHY THE JAPANESE LOST AT MIDWAY
Jonathan B. Parshall, David D. Dickson, and Anthony P. Tully
Naval War College Review, Summer 2001, Vol. LIV, No. 3





someone will hve to read it and report back, I do not have any extra funds for more books.


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Post #: 162
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 1:53:13 AM   
Demosthenes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

someone will hve to read it and report back, I do not have any extra funds for more books.


SET AND DRIFT

DOCTRINE MATTERS WHY THE JAPANESE LOST AT MIDWAY
Jonathan B. Parshall, David D. Dickson, and Anthony P. Tully
Naval War College Review, Summer 2001, Vol. LIV, No. 3

Dallas Isom¡¦s article ¡§The Battle of Midway: Why the Japanese Lost¡¨ [Naval War College Review, Summer 2000, pp. 60¡V100] is laudable for its use of Japanese sources and for the interesting points it raises. In particular, we applaud Isom¡¦s interviews with Japanese survivors, which contribute new and useful information regarding Japanese aircraft rearmament procedures. This new data is crucial to building an accurate account of the events that transpired aboard the Japanese carriers on the morning of 4 June 1942. However, in our opinion, Professor Isom¡¦s arguments appear to rely too much on a rather rigid (and highly debatable) interpretation of Japanese communications: namely, exactly when did Vice Admiral Chuichi Nagumo received transmissions from scout plane 4, launched by the cruiser Tone. In addition, while Isom¡¦s rearmament information (which he puts forward as central to Nagumo¡¦s inability to launch his anticarrier strike before being fatally attacked) is clearly important to understanding the Japanese side of the battle, we feel that he did not carry his operational analysis far enough. As a result, we cannot accept his conclusions.
At the time of Isom¡¦s writing, we were engaged in a reappraisal and rewriting of the Japanese account of Midway as a result of our own work in identifying wreckage from the carrier Kaga.1 A key part of our approach was to build an accurate model of the operations of the Japanese carrier striking force. As we will show, the disaster that befell the Japanese carrier force hinged neither on whether Nagumo received Tone 4¡¦s message at 0740 or at 0800, nor on how quickly the armorers in the Japanese hangars could do their work. Rather, the fate of the Japanese Mobile Striking Force (Kido Butai) revolved around what was happening on its flight decks. Armed with a knowledge of Japanese carrier doctrine, as well as the operational information from the battle, one can reach an accurate assessment of the state of readiness of Nagumo¡¦s force at the time of the climactic American attack without resorting to Isom¡¦s indirect method.
A major error in the Isom article is that it repeatedly misstates what aircraft actually were on the Japanese flight decks. In several places, Isom presumes that the Japanese antiship strike force was on the flight decks when it is demonstrable that those aircraft were still in their hangars. This presumption carries forward the (mistaken) conventional view that the Japanese had spotted their antiship strike force on the flight decks shortly after the initial Midway attack force had taken off and had only briefly moved these antiship strike aircraft below for the purposes of rearming them or recovering the first-strike wave. As will be shown, this is the root of the fundamental misunderstanding of circumstances at the time the carriers were struck.
In fact, both Japanese doctrine and the operations of the Japanese combat air patrol (CAP) fighters would have kept the reserve strike planes securely below in their hangars until they were definitely needed. Not only that, but because of Japanese hangar design, the window of time necessary to lift, spot, and launch the aircraft was substantially longer than has been previously understood. As a result, given the frenetic nature of Japanese CAP operations after about 0800 (particularly aboard Akagi and Kaga), it is unlikely that many of these second-wave aircraft were ever spotted on the flight decks before the fatal American dive-bomber attack commenced at 1020.
This point cannot be overemphasized, because from the conventional belief of what was on the flight decks flow nearly all Western interpretations of the battle. To put the matter succinctly, at the time Akagi, Kaga, and Soryu were struck, their flight decks were more empty than occupied. This is almost the reverse of the standard view, which has the Japanese flight decks packed with strike aircraft awaiting takeoff. There were aircraft on deck, but most were CAP fighters, not attack aircraft. There were also fewer aircraft on deck than is generally supposed. Though potentially startling, this is less a ¡§revision¡¨ than a correction and careful restating of the existing historical record. We will show that official Japanese sources on the battle have been aware of this for some thirty years.
These errors in both the conventional Western interpretation and Isom¡¦s article cannot be addressed without first developing a sense of how the Japanese conducted carrier operations. Unfortunately, standard English-language histories of the battle of Midway have not well understood Japanese carrier operations. From the common misperception that Japanese naval aviation was derivative of Western (primarily British) practice, Western writers typically believe that the Japanese carriers of World War II behaved much like their Western counterparts. In fact, they did not. Japanese carrier operations contained elements of both U.S. Navy and Royal Navy practices. However, as a result of differences in physical design and operational doctrine, by the late 1930s Japanese carriers fought in a fashion all their own. Without understanding these points of divergence, understanding Nagumo¡¦s actions is likewise impossible.
Before the days of modern angled flight decks, a carrier flight deck could be doing only one of three things: spotting aircraft, launching aircraft, or recovering aircraft. To this list most American writers would be quick to add ¡§parking aircraft¡¨ and ¡§servicing aircraft.¡¨ However, it is important to understand that the Japanese avoided performing these activities on the flight deck. Japanese carriers did not use permanent deck parks in the fashion of the U.S. Navy. While temporary deck parks were established forward of crash barriers during recovery operations, they acted only as transitional ¡§overflow¡¨ mechanisms until returning aircraft could be moved below decks.2 Furthermore, while the Japanese could service aircraft on the flight deck (Japanese carriers were equipped with refueling points around the deck edge, for instance), most fueling occurred in the hangars. Likewise, except for arming dive-bomber aircraft, the Japanese serviced planes in the hangar as well.3
Japanese carrier design is also notable for its use of enclosed hangar decks. In contrast to U.S. carriers, whose hangars could be opened to the elements by rolling up metal screens along their sides, Japanese hangars were fully enclosed by storerooms, workshops, and crew spaces, with no natural ventilation. This meant that aircraft engines were never warmed up below.4 This is in direct contrast to American practice, where aircraft commonly were warmed up in the hangars, brought to deck, and immediately launched. These factors had important ramifications during the battle of Midway and imposed severe restrictions on Japanese operational tempos.
In order to spot a strike force on the flight deck and launch it against the Americans (assuming it was already armed), Nagumo¡¦s ships had to perform a complex series of operations. Some tasks could be done in parallel, some only sequentially, and each entailed fixed or variable time costs. These included:
„h Bringing the aircraft up to the flight deck (sequential: approximately one minute per plane).5
„h Spotting the aircraft, unfolding its wings, and chocking wheels (conducted mostly in parallel with elevator movements, but five sequential minutes are added to account for these movements).6
„h Warming up engines (sequential: fifteen minutes minimum for the entire force).7
„h In the case of dive-bombers, arming the aircraft (largely concurrent with engine warmup, but could take as long as twenty minutes).8
„h Delivering final briefings to the pilots (again, mostly in parallel with elevator movements, five sequential minutes minimum for the entire force).9
„h Moving crew to planes and performing final preflight checks (five minutes).10
„h Launching the strike (sequential: fifteen to thirty seconds per plane).11
Taken together, it is apparent that spotting a twenty-one-plane strike for launch would take around forty minutes total, and another five to ten minutes would be required for the launch.12 If the deck spot contained dive-bombers, the spotting time would be perhaps five to ten minutes longer, because these planes had to be armed during engine warm up. This timing is directly confirmed in official Japanese sources.13 The need to warm up engines on the flight deck, dictated by Japanese hangar design, reveals itself as a major hindrance to Japanese operational tempos. Unfortunately, warm-up could not be shortened¡Xaircraft casualties were the inevitable outcome of slighting this activity, and needless losses had to be avoided at all costs.14 Thus, if Nagumo was to attack the American strike force, he needed to find an unbroken forty-five-minute window of opportunity on all four flight decks during which to spot and then launch his strike.15
The final piece of the puzzle is found in the activities of the Japanese combat air patrol that morning. An examination of Akagi¡¦s flight operations reveals the basic point:
0430¡Xlaunch Midway attack force
0445¡Xlaunch initial combat air patrol (three fighters)
0543¡Xlaunch CAP (three fighters)
0655¡Xlaunch CAP (three fighters)
0659¡Xrecover CAP (three fighters)
0710¡Xlaunch CAP (five fighters)
0720¡Xrecover CAP (one fighter)
0726¡Xrecover CAP (one fighter)
0736¡Xrecover CAP (three fighters)
0750¡Xrecover CAP (two fighters)
0808¡Xlaunch CAP (three fighters)
0832¡Xlaunch CAP (four fighters)
0837¡V0900¡Xrecover Midway attack force plus three CAP fighters
0910¡Xrecover CAP (one fighter)
0932¡Xlaunch CAP (five fighters)
0945¡Xlaunch CAP (three fighters)
0951¡Xrecover CAP (two fighters)
1010¡Xrecover CAP (three fighters).16
The other carriers were involved in similar activities, albeit at different times.17 The important point is that recovery operations absolutely required a clear flight deck aft. Aircraft could not be spotted aft while aircraft were landing, nor would they usually be spotted aft during fighter takeoff operations.18
This information enables us to appreciate several things. First, it is clear that Akagi was very busy on the morning of the fourth. The constant American air attacks from 0700 onward necessitated a continuous cycling of the Japanese CAP fighters above Nagumo¡¦s formation. It was very difficult to find a spot to squeeze in forty minutes of uninterrupted deck time to spot a strike, let alone launch it.19 This is a crucial realization in determining what was possible aboard the Japanese carriers and in analyzing Nagumo¡¦s decision-making process.
Second, upon closer examination it is apparent that Akagi¡¦s 1010 CAP recovery dictates that there cannot have been many strike planes on its deck when it was fatally bombed at 1025. Fifteen minutes would not have been sufficient time to bring its twenty-plane strike to the flight deck, let alone spot them, brief the pilots, and warm up engines.20 Thus, the common belief that the American dive-bomber attack found the Japanese flight decks practically chock-a-block with strike planes revved up and waiting to take off is clearly untrue. The aircraft on deck were primarily CAP fighters.
As it turns out, this latter observation, while perhaps shocking to an American audience steeped in the popular lore of this battle, is directly supported by official Japanese sources. In Japan, a clearer picture of Japanese Midway operations began emerging in the 1970s, with the publication of the official Japanese war histories (known as Senshi Sosho) and other substantive works. Unfortunately, it is only very recently that some of these works have been translated into English. Senshi Sosho explicitly states that at the time of the attack, every Japanese carrier had its attack aircraft in the hangars; the only aircraft on deck were either CAP fighters or, in the case of Soryu, strike force escort fighters that were being launched to augment the CAP.21
Third, this operational information casts doubt on whether Nagumo¡¦s reserve strike force was ever on deck in the first place. The conventional wisdom has always been that when Lieutenant Joichi Tomonaga¡¦s Midway attack force was launched, the reserve antiship strike force was immediately brought up to the flight decks and spotted. In fact, this would be contrary to typical Japanese operational patterns, which would have preferred to keep the strike in the hangars until needed. It is absolutely certain that this force was not on deck during the 0800¡V0820 time frame, when Nagumo was making some of his most crucial decisions. Attacking B-17s photographed the Japanese formation during this period, and their pictures of Soryu, Hiryu, and Akagi show no strike planes on deck, only a handful of fighters. This is corroborated by Japanese records that show the force launching additional CAP fighters during this time.
With this information in hand, we now turn to several of the assertions in Isom¡¦s article. For instance, regarding Nagumo¡¦s supposedly tardy receipt of Tone 4¡¦s message and its dire implications for subsequent Japanese preparations, Isom states (p. 75), ¡§It should thus be apparent that if the rearming operation was reversed at this point¡Xat 0745¡Xit would not have taken much time to restore the torpedoes on half the planes from which they had been removed and respot all the planes on the flight decks of the two carriers, perhaps only about thirty minutes.¡¨ In light of the need for forty minutes just to respot the strike, not to mention the time needed to rearm, this gives a grossly optimistic impression of Nagumo¡¦s chances of launching a strike before Tomonaga¡¦s returning force would begin to occupy the flight decks at 0837.
Isom later states (p. 77), ¡§Thus, at about 0920 operations to respot the second-wave strike force on the flight decks could have begun, had the torpedo planes been rearmed with torpedoes. Had the countermand order been given at 0745, as the standard scenario holds, the torpedoes almost certainly would have been restored by 0920.¡¨ The ability of the Japanese carriers to begin a respot at 0920, had they been rearmed or not, is highly questionable given the high tempo of CAP operations and their monopolization of the flight decks. At this point in the battle, Japanese records clearly show, the Japanese were alert to a constant stream of incoming American strikes. Until the coast was reasonably clear and his CAP well stocked with fresh fighters to last through the spotting process, Nagumo cannot have been expected to spot his strike. Akagi¡¦s air officer (hikocho) in charge of flight operations, Commander Shogo Masuda, as well as the other experienced air officers around Nagumo (such as Mitsuo Fuchida and Minoru Genda) could not have helped impressing this point upon the admiral.
Even more questionable is Isom¡¦s subsequent statement (p. 78) regarding the state of Carrier Division 1 at 1000. When the attack was over at 1000, ¡§about ten minutes of work still remained to rearm the last division of Akagi¡¦s torpedo planes, and even more time was needed for Kaga¡¦s. The torpedo planes that had been rearmed were brought up to the flight decks, beginning around 0920, but at least a third remained in the hangar decks at 1000. By 1015, the rearming had probably been completed on Akagi, and the last torpedo planes were being brought up and spotted on its flight deck. Had the whole strike force been ready to go at 1000, it, along with Zero escorts, could have been launched during this fifteen-minute window between attacks on the Mobile Force.¡¨
This is wrong on several counts. First, we know that Akagi landed a CAP fighter at 0910 and two more at 0951, meaning that even if there had been strike aircraft on deck at 0920 (which we think highly unlikely in any case), they had to have been moved back down into the hangar by 0951. Also, Isom clearly does not factor in the immutable time costs associated with spotting and engine warm-up¡Xa ¡§fifteen-minute window between attacks¡¨ simply does not suffice. In fact, in this case Isom also ignores Nagumo¡¦s own estimate that the strike force would be ready at 1100, although a 1030 takeoff was hoped for, if things went well. Launching at 1000, though, for all the reasons cited above, was never even remotely in the cards, and Nagumo knew it.
Furthermore, the assertion that two-thirds of Akagi¡¦s torpedo planes were on deck at 1000 is clearly wrong. Akagi had landed CAP nine minutes earlier, at 0951, and would do so again at 1010. Isom¡¦s assertion is also directly contradicted by Senshi Sosho, which states that at the time of the 1025 attack all of Akagi¡¦s strike aircraft were in the hangar. This is further corroborated by Richard Best, lead dive-bomber pilot against Akagi, who states that when he dove for his attack, the only aircraft on deck were Zeros.22
Isom makes a different error regarding rearmament activities aboard Carrier Division 2 (Hiru and Soryu). He writes (p. 79), ¡§[the strike aircraft] could be rearmed on the flight deck as well as in the hangar deck. (It appears that only half of each squadron was lowered to the hangar deck after the 0715 rearming order, thus saving elevator time.)¡¨ Furthermore, he states (p. 80), ¡§Most, if not all, of those [strike aircraft] had probably been changed back to armor-piercing bombs by very soon after 0830; at least half of each squadron on Hiryu and Soryu was already on the flight decks at 0830.¡¨
Again, his statement is at odds with the photographic evidence obtained between 0800 and 0815, which shows no strike planes whatsoever on either carrier¡¦s flight deck. In addition, it is known that Soryu launched CAP at 0710, and recovered CAP at 0730. Hiryu recovered CAP at 0700 and 0740, launched CAP at 0825, and was recovering CAP again at 0840. Thus even if strike planes had begun to be promptly brought up on Hiryu after the American B-17s departed at 0815, they would have had to be stowed below again by 0840¡Xthe window of opportunity was not long enough to have performed warm-up and launch.
Isom repeats this error later when he states (p. 81), ¡§At 0830, when Nagumo had to make a decision whether to launch an attack on the American force or postpone it, we have seen that he had ready no torpedo planes and no Zeros for escort. But he did have dive-bombers on Hiryu and Soryu available. They could have been launched fairly quickly.¡¨ Again, this is incorrect, as the B-17 photographs and other evidence incontrovertibly demonstrate. The Japanese dive-bombers were all in their hangars at the time and would have taken another forty minutes to put into action, even if they had been rearmed.
Isom¡¦s concluding point, and his central thesis (p. 89), ¡§considering how close [Nagumo] came to launching his attack before being bombed at 1025, every minute saved could have made a significant difference in the outcome of the battle,¡¨ is shown to be incorrect by the cumulative weight of the evidence at hand. It was not the inefficiency of Japanese communications (which is debatable) that doomed Japanese hopes in the battle but the inefficiency of Japanese flight operations. Nagumo was nowhere near ready to launch by 1025; in fact, he had probably barely begun preparations to do so. Even assuming Akagi had begun lifting its strike aircraft to the flight deck immediately after its CAP was recovered at 1010, Akagi would not have been ready to launch its strike for forty minutes more (1050) and could not have gotten it completely airborne before 1100. Kaga was in a slightly better state, having last launched six CAP fighters at 1000, but it was hampered because of its larger torpedo bomber wing (twenty-seven aircraft) to lift and spot.
It is no coincidence that after the devastating American attack on the other three Japanese carriers, Hiryu¡¦s actual operational tempo corresponds very closely with the hypothetical earlier timetable for Carrier Division 1 we have just put forth. The flagship of the aggressive Rear Admiral Tamon Yamaguchi can be presumed to have launched its own strike as quickly as possible after the 1022¡V1027 debacle.
The picture that emerges from this analysis is of a rather conservative admiral operating within the constraints of 1942 Japanese carrier doctrine. In contrast to the standard American accounts that have the Japanese observing the feeble American attacks (poorly executed and delivered piecemeal) with a measure of contempt, the operational tempo of Nagumo¡¦s CAP reveals something rather different. Regardless of whether they accorded the American attackers much respect in terms of technique, the Japanese command was certainly concerned about the aerial assault, both for its disruption of the force¡¦s timetable and for the overt danger posed by the attacks themselves. Upon close reading of the Nagumo report and other Japanese sources, there is no question that Nagumo and his staff knew the peril they were in. One good hit on any of the carriers could have disastrous consequences, and each of the carriers had survived near-misses during the morning.
Considering this, Nagumo probably thought he was playing it safe¡Xkeeping the strike aircraft in the hangars until the worst of the danger was past, keeping the flight decks clear to support constant CAP operations, and repelling American attacks with the best weapon available, his fighters. When the attacks abated, he expected to spot a
U.S. Air Force Photo Battle of Midway, 4-6 June 1942 Japanese aircraft carrier Hiryu under attack by USAAF B-17s on 4 June 1942
coordinated combined-arms strike force on the decks of his two carrier divisions and then deliver a crushing blow to his opponent. Unfortunately for the Japanese, their desire to launch an integrated attack force from all four flight decks deprived them of flexibility in the face of the enemy.
Because of the remarkably small cannon-magazine capacities of the Zero fighter, defensive CAP operations necessitated frequent landing, rearming, and launching of engaged fighters. Nagumo clearly appreciated the danger in which he would place his ships during deck spotting of strike force aircraft, in that it created a window of time during which no additional CAP could be cycled. As a consequence, his options were more constrained than has been previously understood¡Xspotting an offensive strike meant hanging his CAP out to dry for nearly an hour at a time when American attacks were constant. As it was, Nagumo¡¦s defensive approach very nearly paid off, as only the final American attack delivered telling damage. Indeed, it can be argued that had Nagumo played it a little safer, by putting additional CAP aloft, he might have saved Akagi, Kaga, or Soryu from the American dive-bomber attack.23
Japanese carrier doctrine of the time did not specify what to do when suddenly faced with an enemy force within the enemy¡¦s striking range while one¡¦s own armed and fueled aircraft were still in their hangars.24 This was a doctrinal failing¡Xalthough in fairness, both the Japanese and Americans were grappling with this issue. Later in the war, it would have been considered imperative upon detection of an enemy force to immediately launch as many aircraft as possible (whatever their armament) against it. If nothing else, this would get the aircraft out of the hangars, where they presented a dire threat to the carrier itself. Indeed, by 1944 the Japanese Combined Fleet developed just such a command for the signal books in the event of a sudden enemy detection.25
In conclusion, we applaud Professor Isom for his efforts in bringing Japanese sources to the fore of the Midway discussion, as well as his presentation of valuable information regarding Japanese rearming procedures. It is also important to bear in mind that he was laboring under the conventional belief that the second-wave strike was spotted and ready to launch on the flight decks, rather than below in the hangars. However, his interpretation of Japanese operations focuses almost exclusively on what it took to arm an airplane and fails to account for the fundamentals of how the Japanese got that plane spotted on the flight deck and then into the air. The article also overlooks the relationship between defensive CAP activities and the inability to mount offense strikes. Its view of carrier operations is therefore both limited and at odds with a great deal of what we know to be true about how Japanese carriers actually fought. Without an adequate appreciation of these factors, a proper assessment of Nagumo¡¦s command options and performance cannot be constructed.
Editor¡¦s note: Professor Isom responds in the "In My View" Department.


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Post #: 163
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 1:54:09 AM   
spence

 

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You can get it online for free...US Naval War College website....sometime in 2001 I think.

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Post #: 164
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 2:18:48 AM   
Nomad


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That is an old article, I read that years ago. It has nothing that contridicts what I stated. I did not make any statements about where aircraft were during the attack or how the attack was made, etc.

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Post #: 165
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 3:04:45 AM   
spence

 

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SHATTERED SWORD definitely places the strike aircraft in the hangars rather than on deck. I think it's at least arguable that had the a/c been on deck one or more of the KB carriers disabled in the 1025 strike might have at least survived the battle. Though a hard decision, the Japanese at least would have had the option to jettison a/c threatened by fire had they been on deck. In the hangar they were just bombs that would INEVITABLY blow up whenever the fires started by the bombs reached them.

In any case the Fujita story of being seconds/minutes from launching an overwhelming strike is shown to be hogwash.

< Message edited by spence -- 5/18/2006 3:05:36 AM >

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Post #: 166
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 6:16:24 AM   
mlees


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Hmmm. So Demosthenes, are you saying that the battle was over by 8 AM, and there was absolutely nothing Nagumo could do to change the outcome at that point?

I beg your pardon, but I am having a hard time accepting that conclusion.

quote:

But that was the point in Shattered Sword. He really could not have struck back because after 8 AM he was constantly cycling CAP and his ships were evading attacks.


I believe that the authors show various gaps in the attacks by the Americans. Into these gaps you launch the "reserve" force I mentioned. That after all, is what that reserve force was there for. You still have not answered my query:

If IJN doctrine was absolute, and IJN doctrine called for maximum force on the target, why was 1/2 of the planes held aside and armed for antishipping strikes?

After all, the "master plan" assumes that the Americans wouldn't be along for two or three days. Does it make sense that they hold out this "In case of emergency, break glass" force if it wasn't intended to be used?

Therefore, I submit that it was intended to be used in the case of an American surprise visit, but Nagumo failed to use them when needed. Maybe he choked under pressure. Maybe he was afraid of deviating from the Master Plan without permission. I dunno.

quote:

They were much closer when the Hiryu strike was launched because both Nagumo and Spruance/Fletcher had closed range.


I know. Read my paragraph again. I said noon-ish, Hiryu was 100-120 miles. Then I tried to estimate the 9 AM distance from that figure.

quote:

250-280 does not seem to me to be optimal range for the IJN. It's too long. You can optimize against a land installation because islands don't move. Against moving targets that may change course, especially given the reptilian quality of the Japanese recon reports that morning, anyone would have closed the range.


True. But Nagumo was getting reports from the float plane for a couple hours during that time. He should be able to tell whether the force is advancing, staying the same, or pulling away, give or take a 15 minute delay/accuracy. He should then adjust his range accordingly.

You state that the policy was to close to give the pilots in damaged machines a better chance of returning to the flattops, but that is not actually supported by the movements of either side's fleets that afternoon.

The USN lost as many (if not more) aircraft to fuel ditching than air-to-air combat or flak. This is also mentioned in Shattered Sword. Spruance could have radioed the returning flights with homing signals. He did not, and rightly so. (Hard stance towards the aviators, I know. But if you lose the CV to an attack because you were loitering in the vicinity of the enemy, in an effort to recover more of your planes, then you have turned a bad battlefield result into a worse one.)

quote:

Sure you can make time available but at what cost? You must both forego cycling your cap or you steer your ship in a straight line into the wind. At the time nobody knew for sure that a B17 from 10K couldn't hit a proverbial bull in the ass with a bass fiddle. And who knows, with a non-maneuvering target maybe even a B17 could hit one. Then there were the torpedo bombers. At Coral Sea the US TBDs put seven torps into that Japanese CVL. So the TBDs were rightly viewed as a compelling threat and you have to maneuver to dodge torps or you have to keep up a good CAP cycle.


The attacks against the KB were not nonstop.

However, don't you think that it would be better to launch as soon as you can against the enemy, than to wait until it seems most convient for your launches?

After all, that is what happened IRL. Nagumo waited to form one giant massive strike. He never got the chance to launch it. Therefore, holding out the reserve aircraft, and so on, proved pointless.

It's like watching a boxer cock his fist, and waiting until he feels he has a clear shot, while the opponent launches a flurry. Chances are, somewhere in the flurry, the opponent will land a telling blow before the first boxer makes up his mind on when to throw his "victory" punch.

quote:

The other thing to remember here is Midway itself. People often overlook the fact that as an unsinkable deck, Midway potentially dominated the waters around it for hundreds of miles. It was home to some 180 a.c. at the time. Had they all been PBYs and B17s for scouting, and SBDs and F4Fs for attacking, I submit that Nagumo's force would have been badly hurt whether any American CVs would show up at all. And the Japanese knew that before the battle began, and they expected to have to follow up their first strike on Midway with a second strike, before the battle began.


Agreed on the threat Midway posed. Which makes Nagumo's closing to the NE with the American fleet more puzzling. His movements there did not lengthen the range to Midway. (Pretty much staying even, in that regard.) He had clearly been attacked by land based bombers. Yet he charges towards the naval contact, staying in range of Midway...

The authors of shattered sword also state that Nagumo should have pulled away towards the NW until all the searches and air battles with the US naval presence were resolved.

quote:

Assuming everything goes right, the strike package finds Yorktown, and damages or sinks her. Nagumo still loses three CVs (because as you note trouble was already on the way). And when trouble arrives he has less CAP (because he's been launching a strike rather than cycling CAP). I can't see how this materially affects the outcome of the battle.


He doesn't know that he will lose three flattops. (You make that sound inevitable, by the way.)

He doesn't know what strikes are inbound on his fleet, what type of aircraft will strike him, and exactly when. But it was clear that he had been under attack from CV based aircraft (CV based TBD's and USMC SBD's from Midway, actually. But he thought that they were all from CV's.) He has a force sighted, to the NE, that appears to be moving in accordance with CV flight operations. (The force was reported in an incorrect position, as you say, but it was reported correctly as steaming SE. Into the wind. Mighty strange behavior for a surface combat TF.) He dithers, at this point.

Even if I accept that he loses his carriers no matter what he does after 8am, then launching what he had, when he could, becomes even more imperative. Make the enemy pay for their victory.

quote:

The operational plan was a really bad operational plan.


I agree with the rest, for the most part. Even Nagumo is said to have pointed out these inconsistancies during the "war gaming" phase of the planning.

However, as they guy sailing in harm's way, it was his (and his staff's) job to discard the plan if the enemy derails it. Despite Yamamoto's prestige and power, do you think Nagumo would have been hanged for not sticking to the schedule, if he managed to sink three USN CV's? (Even assuming, as you seem to be, that he loses three of his own.) As it was, he lost four to the US one, and he still retained command... how was that better? A draw would have seemed easier to swallow than a clear defeat.

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Post #: 167
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 6:20:54 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart

i want a historically accurate game (as much as feasible) that is also balanced...that is why if *I* was designing a game of this scope, i would include variable victory conditions which were different based on a bidding system that two players would go thru before starting the game. a total point systsem could be generated in which geographic, manpower/material/ship/plane losses and political objective subtotals would be added together. these could be updated each year of the game to allow for auto-victories. for example, japan decides that by the end of 1942 he can control cities x,y,z with no more losses than x manpower, y planes/pilots and z ships and with an invasion of australia, he increases the first two totals by some multiplier to pay for the political impact of invading austraila. the allied player makes a similar bid and they are compared to come up with an auto-victory situation for that year. who cares who wins the war...the players have agreed to a set of objectives that will determine victory. think of it like making the "contract" in a game of bridge before playing the hand.

of course this is a very basic description of how the VC's would be generated, but the point is that the two players playing the game decide what victory looks like for THEIR game. otherwise, there could be playtesting til the cows come home to try and come up with "balanced" VC for a campaign game.



Maybe this is why I can't understand you folks. I've never paid any attention to the "victory conditions" in WITP at all. With 1600 turns at this level of detail, I have enough to think about without worrying about what someone else thinks is "winning". I know if I think I'm winning or losing, and at the end I will know if I've won or lost. Why would I want to spend hundreds of hours worrying about someone else's notions of what "winning" is? I'm damned sure the Joint Chiefs didn't spend any time worrying that if they didn't hold "X" island, or take "Y" port, by "Z" date, that God was going to step in and say the War was over and the other side had "won". Now I will worry that if I'm not in position to finish the war by the Summer of 1945 my opponant will be razing me for months about it. And as the Japanese, if I score a "reverse Midway" or wreck an attempt to invade Kwajalien, he's going to hear about it..., and if I'm still hanging in there at the end of 1945 he's never gonna hear the end of it.



(bold in quote added by kwik e mart)
i'm not sure which group of "you folks" you are grouping me into, but "you folks" sounds very close to "you people", which is never a good phrase to start a response in a dialogue with...

i would suggest that the bolded part of your quote above is EXACTLY what the Joint Chiefs sat around thinking about. why would Guadalcanal become such a focal point of 1942 if both sides weren't deeply concerned about hanging on to it? forget if it ACTUALLY was worth keeping or not, the fact is that both sides were determined to have that island. as for "God" stepping in a saying the war is over, i assume you are comparing this act of heavenly intervention with arbitrarily set VC's being achieved...i can see your point of this being too quick of an ending to a very long game...perhaps yearly auto victories aren't your cup of tea...if ever implemented, you could choose to simply not use them...i was just making a suggestion

someone please correct me if i'm wrong, but this computer application call WiTP was developed, marketed and sold as a GAME...not a simulation. simulations don't have zero bounuses, sub doctrines, etc, etc...i've used simulators before...for flight training and for CVN battle group exercises...i don't need to fly the simulator more than once to know what will happen if i get asymetric flaps close in to a landing and i don't need to partake in the battle group exercise simulator more than once to know what will happen if we don't coordinate our ASW assets correctly to counter an Victor III nuke sub...and i don't need to play WiTP for 1600 turns to know what will happen in the end.

i appreciate your view, but i spent the same money you did (presumably) for WiTP and would like to see a playable game...which is how it was marketed...




From where do you folks get the idea that a WARGAME (Kriegspiel) is a "balanced situation"? The whole notion of a "kriegspiel" was to be able to play out a military situation without risking lives or treasure doing the real thing. The German General Staff wasn't interested in a "fun playing experiance" when they came up with this idea..., they wanted to test out real strategies and tactics for potential use in a real war.
And that meant that every factor included in the wargame had to be as realistically potrayed as possible.
When the Japanese started "playing around" with results they didn't like in their wargaming of the Midway Campaign, they produced results that were garbage. And got clobbered in the process. If you
put "garbage" in, you get "garbage" out.

Now a commercial "wargame" has to have "victory conditions" because some of the buyers are only interested in "winning". But the whole idea is still for the player to deal with the same restrictions and capabilities in playing the game. Which is why RISK is not a Wargame. And many others are very simplified war "games". One expects that as the complexity level rises, the game will become more about "war" and less about "game" (except in the kriegspeil sense of a simulation of a possible or actual real-life event---the key word being "simulation", not "game").

"and i don't need to play WiTP for 1600 turns to know what will happen in the end." YES, you do. Even a "Fools Mate" in Chess needs to be played for a couple of turns to occur. Now if I am playing chess with a Grand Master, the end result may be a forgone conclusion---but in several replays HOW I get my butt kicked is going to be different each time. I am not "straight-jacketed" into what pieces I move where..., but the other side does have an over-whelming advantage in experiance. In WITP, both sides should be able to move their pieces anywhere they want (as long as the move is legal)---but one side does have an overwhelming material and technilogical superiority. That makes it a WARgame.

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Post #: 168
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 7:20:18 AM   
bradfordkay

 

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Game or simulation? It was actually marketed as both. Some of us are able to accept a certain amount of fudging in order to make a wargame playable - but less in the direction of making it balanced. Victory conditions are an acceptable balancing act (even if you don't like them, Mike), but I am less in favour of changing the historical capabilities of the units and equipment involved in the search for balance. I will happily take on a contest as an unequal combattant, if I feel that both sides are constrained in a historical manner.

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fair winds,
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Post #: 169
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 7:48:03 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

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You sound quite rational. After I retire this summer and have some real time, maybe we can try playing whatever version of the game looks more promising by then. Have some fun moaning about real game "victories"..., like "Damn! How did you know I was going to try that?" and "Gotcha..., I figured you would show up here sooner or later!"

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Post #: 170
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 3:26:54 PM   
Mynok


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quote:

Some of us are able to accept a certain amount of fudging in order to make a wargame playable - but less in the direction of making it balanced.


Maybe this is where the disconnect is. I don't equate "balance" with "equal strength sides". Balance means both sides have achievable victory conditions. Can't imagine why people think it means equal strength sides, because almost every wargame I've played *doesn't* have equal strength sides.

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Post #: 171
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 5:08:00 PM   
Demosthenes


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Agree
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

Some of us are able to accept a certain amount of fudging in order to make a wargame playable - but less in the direction of making it balanced.


Maybe this is where the disconnect is. I don't equate "balance" with "equal strength sides". Balance means both sides have achievable victory conditions. Can't imagine why people think it means equal strength sides, because almost every wargame I've played *doesn't* have equal strength sides.




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Post #: 172
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 5:22:06 PM   
Demosthenes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

Hmmm. So Demosthenes, are you saying that the battle was over by 8 AM, and there was absolutely nothing Nagumo could do to change the outcome at that point?


All I am saying is that given Japanese CV construction (closed hangers that do not allow for warming up aircraft engines in the hanger deck), their doctrine of keeping 50% of their aircraft reserved below deck for anti-ship strike (and therefore not warmed up and ready to go - nor pre-spotted on the flight deck) - along with the time table of the events of the day (constant cycling of CAP due to the numerous strikes coming in all morning from Midway) and the need to land and strike below decks their own strike planes that hit Midway.....suggests to me that there was almost no time to bring up the reserve strike against the US CVs before the events of the day ran their course.

Midway could have been different had plans been from the beginning of the day - and the sequence of events had been altered.

But IMO, yes, by 8A.M. it wasn't looking good for the KB - given what was unfolding and it's inevitable consequences.

< Message edited by Demosthenes -- 5/18/2006 5:44:30 PM >


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Post #: 173
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 5:34:36 PM   
mlees


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quote:

But IMO, yes, by 8A.M. it wasn't looking good for the KB - given was what unfolding and it's inevitable consequences.


Hehe. In that case, Nagumo should have stayed in his cabin, in his comfy bunny slippers, drinking wine, eating cheese, and listening to smooth jazz.

(in reply to Demosthenes)
Post #: 174
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 5:36:07 PM   
Demosthenes


Posts: 525
Joined: 12/8/2005
From: Los Angeles CA
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Well...his day wouldn't have ended any worse than it did
quote:

ORIGINAL: mlees

quote:

But IMO, yes, by 8A.M. it wasn't looking good for the KB - given what was unfolding and it's inevitable consequences.


Hehe. In that case, Nagumo should have stayed in his cabin, in his comfy bunny slippers, drinking wine, eating cheese, and listening to smooth jazz.



< Message edited by Demosthenes -- 5/18/2006 5:44:54 PM >


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(in reply to mlees)
Post #: 175
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 8:45:35 PM   
mdiehl

 

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Hi Mlees, you directed the reply to Demosthenes but largely quoted my post, so I'll reply.

quote:

I believe that the authors show various gaps in the attacks by the Americans. Into these gaps you launch the "reserve" force I mentioned. That after all, is what that reserve force was there for.


Uh, no. Those aircraft were never spotted on deck at any time during the battle. Given the slow lift rate of the mobile forces four CV elevators, and their small size, and other factors (cycling the engines up etc) it would have required about 1.5 hours of clear deck to spot and launch the strike. At no time did Nagumo have 1.5 hours to spot and launch that strike after 8 AM. If he'd spotted that strike on deck at 5:30 AM he might have been able to launch it after the first ambiguous inaccurate contact report sometime before 8 AM. And that attack would have been directed at the wrong position, although there is some hope they might have accidently discovered the correct location or received better information in flight. The latter is not so likely given the rather awful command and control of Mobile Force vis a vis planes already in the air.

quote:

If IJN doctrine was absolute, and IJN doctrine called for maximum force on the target, why was 1/2 of the planes held aside and armed for antishipping strikes?


Because they screwed up and they knew they were screwing up. 1/2 the force was held aside for antishipping strikes on the theory that enemy vessels might show up. At the same time, the operational plan, as written, basically assumed (indeed, DEMANDED) that no American CVs show up.

As I have said many times in this, the UV, and the GGPW fora, and have been saying for several years now, the Japanese operational plan for the Midway attack was the mother of all bad operational plans. Finally I now have a source (Parshall and Tulley) that I can cite that substantiates my suspicious but goes into even greater detail. The Japanese plan was even worse than I always reasoned.

quote:

After all, the "master plan" assumes that the Americans wouldn't be along for two or three days. Does it make sense that they hold out this "In case of emergency, break glass" force if it wasn't intended to be used?


I agree. That is one of the nutty parts of the operational plan. Ultimately it comes down to the Japanese trying to use their 4 CVs to multitask four mutually incompatible missions. Parshall and Tulley suggest that the Japanese needed six CVs. I think they needed seven or eight. My take is: a couple light CVs dedicated solely to RECON. 3 fleet class CVs dedicated to smashing Midway Island. 3 Fleet Class CVs dedicated solely to guarding against American interference.

quote:

Therefore, I submit that it was intended to be used in the case of an American surprise visit, but Nagumo failed to use them when needed. Maybe he choked under pressure. Maybe he was afraid of deviating from the Master Plan without permission. I dunno.


It was so intended, but it was never spotted on the deck. At no time after 7 AM did Nagumo have the requisite 1.5 hours to spot and launch that strike. Had they been spotted after the launch of the Midway strike force then they'd have been in position to launch around the 7:30 - 8 AM time frame. Of course, then you run into the fact that the spotted strike must either (a) launch, or (b) be taken below to the hangars when the Midway strike force returns to land. Because you couldn't land the Midway strike force with a.c. spotted on deck. Nor could you cycle CAP.

quote:

I know. Read my paragraph again. I said noon-ish, Hiryu was 100-120 miles. Then I tried to estimate the 9 AM distance from that figure.


9 AM is irrelevant. There were no Kido Butai a.c. spotted on deck to be launched at the American CVs. That's why you need to review Shattered Sword. Fuchida's account is the only account that makes it seem like Nagumo COULD have launched a strike at the American CVs mid-morning and it is clear that Fuchida's account is rife with outright fabrications.

quote:

True. But Nagumo was getting reports from the float plane for a couple hours during that time. He should be able to tell whether the force is advancing, staying the same, or pulling away, give or take a 15 minute delay/accuracy. He should then adjust his range accordingly.


He had lousy reports and no strike spotted on deck to be launched at the American TF.

quote:

You state that the policy was to close to give the pilots in damaged machines a better chance of returning to the flattops, but that is not actually supported by the movements of either side's fleets that afternoon.


That's not correct. Not for either side.

quote:

The attacks against the KB were not nonstop.


Yes they absolutely were. At least in any sense that is important. The basic problem remained for Nagumo that you can't cycle CAP with a strike spotted on deck. You can't launch a strike easily when you're maneuvering to avoid attack. And spotting a strike on deck and launching it took required at minimum about 1.5 hours. There was no interval after 7:30 AM during which Nagumo had 1.5 hours to spot and launch said strike if he wanted to maintain a CAP. That's what Parshall and Tulley have clearly demonstrated and repeatedly observe in Shattered Sword.

The idea that the armed planes could magically spot and launch during some 35 minute lull in the fight doesn't hold ANY water.

quote:

However, don't you think that it would be better to launch as soon as you can against the enemy, than to wait until it seems most convient for your launches?


Launch what against whom? The aircraft weren't spotted for launch. That means the only way Nagumo could have hit the American CVs was if he had an accurate and detailed contact report of American CVs prior to 6 AM or if "on a hunch" he'd gone ahead and spotted the anti-ship armed planes after launching the Midway strike. Of course, had he not had a report of anything he'd then have to bring the spotted a.c. back down to the hangar deck in order to make space for the returning Midway strike.

quote:

After all, that is what happened IRL. Nagumo waited to form one giant massive strike. He never got the chance to launch it. Therefore, holding out the reserve aircraft, and so on, proved pointless.


He didn't "hold out for one massive strike." He never at any time had an anti-ship strike spotted on deck that could be launched against the US CVs. Between CAP cycling and recovering the Midway strike, at no point after 8 AM did he have the requisite 1.5 hours to spot and launch said strike.

quote:

It's like watching a boxer cock his fist, and waiting until he feels he has a clear shot, while the opponent launches a flurry.


Nope. To continue with your analogy, it's like a boxer entering a blacked out boxing ring with his jacket on, and a towel wrapped around his neck. After shadow boxing in his corner for a few moments, he discovers, to his misfortune, that the bell starting the contest rang a half hour before he entered the ring, as his opponent lands crushing blows to his face and midriff. To make matters worse, his coach told him that this morning was to be a practice session with a stringer, not a title bout against two opponents at the same time.

quote:

Agreed on the threat Midway posed. Which makes Nagumo's closing to the NE with the American fleet more puzzling. His movements there did not lengthen the range to Midway. (Pretty much staying even, in that regard.) He had clearly been attacked by land based bombers. Yet he charges towards the naval contact, staying in range of Midway...


True. Maybe you can blame Nagumo for that. Of course, he thought he was dealing with possibly one American CV, and maybe not even that.

quote:

The authors of shattered sword also state that Nagumo should have pulled away towards the NW until all the searches and air battles with the US naval presence were resolved.


Probably he should have but doing so would have put him right in the middle of Enterprise's coordinated, but wayward, strike. He'd still have lost three or four CVs.

quote:

He doesn't know that he will lose three flattops. (You make that sound inevitable, by the way.)


It doesn't matter what he knew. By 8 AM it was the most likely outcome. The strike was on the way. The only way to avoid the strike was to run due west, forget about attacking Midway, and throw away the absurdly tight timetable for the whole operation. Remember, his timetable DEMANDED that he finish off Midway as a functional airbase by dusk on the first day, with or without opposition from American CVs. Given how much bullshit he took for falling back after his Pearl Harbor mission, one can hardly blame him for being offensive minded in pursuit of the objectives of the Operational Plan. Besides, being offensive minded was so ingrained into the Japanese doctrine that it's hard to imagine any other admiral doing anything differently.

quote:

He doesn't know what strikes are inbound on his fleet, what type of aircraft will strike him, and exactly when. But it was clear that he had been under attack from CV based aircraft (CV based TBD's and USMC SBD's from Midway, actually. But he thought that they were all from CV's.) He has a force sighted, to the NE, that appears to be moving in accordance with CV flight operations. (The force was reported in an incorrect position, as you say, but it was reported correctly as steaming SE. Into the wind. Mighty strange behavior for a surface combat TF.) He dithers, at this point.


He didn't "dither." He had no strike on deck to launch when he had that information. Nor at any point did he have the 1.5 hours required to put a strike on deck. The only way to fix all that was to retire well beyond Midway's effective air range, develop the contacts with the American fleet, and ready an anti-ship strike... all on the ambiguous report of an American surface TF behaving, as you note, "oddly." And if he did that, he'd have to throw the whole timetable for the Midway plan into the toilet.

quote:

Even if I accept that he loses his carriers no matter what he does after 8am, then launching what he had, when he could, becomes even more imperative. Make the enemy pay for their victory.


He had nothing on deck to launch. To have put stuff on deck, he'd have to have not cycled his CAP and not landed the returning Midway strike force.

quote:

However, as they guy sailing in harm's way, it was his (and his staff's) job to discard the plan if the enemy derails it. Despite Yamamoto's prestige and power, do you think Nagumo would have been hanged for not sticking to the schedule, if he managed to sink three USN CV's? (Even assuming, as you seem to be, that he loses three of his own.) As it was, he lost four to the US one, and he still retained command... how was that better? A draw would have seemed easier to swallow than a clear defeat.


I'm not sure he had the authority to throw away the plan. After Pearl Harbor and the crap that he took for (correctly) retiring after the attack, he certainly needed no additional encouragement to continue being aggressive in the face of one, small, oddly-behaving, possibly accompanied by one CV, American task force.

Given the amount of crap he's taken, historically, for the operation's failure, including incorrect assertions that he somehow missed an opportunity to strike at the American CVs, even though said opportunity never existed after 8 AM, he basically has been hanged. At least in the press. Yamamoto was correct when he "assumed full responsibility for the failure at Midway." The historical error in the west has been to ignore Yamamoto's correct assessment of the responsibility for the failure and to continue to desperately fish for ways to blame Nagumo.

Nagumo retained command of Shokaku, Zuikaku, & Zuiho, because Yamamoto was the guy who botched up the Midway operation and everyone involved knew it. Nagumo did not lose those CVs. Yamamoto did. The only blame that accrues to Nagumo is for not running away when all he had remaining was Hiryu and the understrength remnants of Kido Butai's air groups.

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Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to Ursa MAior)
Post #: 176
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 8:49:56 PM   
BLUESBOB

 

Posts: 219
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From: Fullerton, Ca.
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Nagumo did it in the conservatory with a candlestick.

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 177
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 8:51:44 PM   
Kwik E Mart


Posts: 2447
Joined: 7/22/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

From where do you folks get the idea that a WARGAME (Kriegspiel) is a "balanced situation"? The whole notion of a "kriegspiel" was to be able to play out a military situation without risking lives or treasure doing the real thing. The German General Staff wasn't interested in a "fun playing experiance" when they came up with this idea..., they wanted to test out real strategies and tactics for potential use in a real war.
And that meant that every factor included in the wargame had to be as realistically potrayed as possible.
When the Japanese started "playing around" with results they didn't like in their wargaming of the Midway Campaign, they produced results that were garbage. And got clobbered in the process. If you
put "garbage" in, you get "garbage" out.

Now a commercial "wargame" has to have "victory conditions" because some of the buyers are only interested in "winning". But the whole idea is still for the player to deal with the same restrictions and capabilities in playing the game. Which is why RISK is not a Wargame. And many others are very simplified war "games". One expects that as the complexity level rises, the game will become more about "war" and less about "game" (except in the kriegspeil sense of a simulation of a possible or actual real-life event---the key word being "simulation", not "game").

"and i don't need to play WiTP for 1600 turns to know what will happen in the end." YES, you do. Even a "Fools Mate" in Chess needs to be played for a couple of turns to occur. Now if I am playing chess with a Grand Master, the end result may be a forgone conclusion---but in several replays HOW I get my butt kicked is going to be different each time. I am not "straight-jacketed" into what pieces I move where..., but the other side does have an over-whelming advantage in experiance. In WITP, both sides should be able to move their pieces anywhere they want (as long as the move is legal)---but one side does have an overwhelming material and technilogical superiority. That makes it a WARgame.



*sigh*...ok, i think if you move me out of the "you folks" category that think Kreigspeil/Risk/Axis & Allies etc are balanced situations, we can have a more meaningful dialogue...even in chess, where the playing field is limited and the pieces per side are identical, the white side is generally considered to have the advantage (however slight)...this will always be the case in an I GO YOU GO game...only a rock, paper, scissors simultaneous game can be considered balanced...i never asked for nor endorsed trying to make WiTP balanced...as a matter of fact, i would like to see it as close to historical accuracy as possible...my point was that implementing a bidding system for VC's (end game and/or auto VC) would in some ways eliminate the need for balancing tricks like zero bonus, sub doctrine, etc (although i would suspect these "features" were added to the design to create a sense of realism)...i'm in your camp with making it realistic...just throw a bone to those that like the win/lose game aspect by having a bidding matrix for VC...make it a toggle...for those that don't care about VC, turn it off...then the realism/historical camp gets their cup of tea and the "you folks" game camp gets their crumpet...

ps - not sure where you got the kreigspeil reference, but i never mentioned it in my posts...


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(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 178
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 10:29:36 PM   
mlees


Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
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Hi, mdiehl. Im sorry if I misdirected my quotes & rebuttals...

A lot of your rebuttal (here) seems to revolve around the belief that the reserve force could not be spotted and launched in anything less than a quiet hour and a half. I disagree, but I am not at home with Shattered Sword in hand.

Cycling CAP does not appear to be an insurmountable issue for me. While Akagi/Kaga spot & launch, Hiryu/Soryu refuel rearm CAP, then switch, as needed.

The handling characteristics of the IJN carriers were a bit more restrictive, but I recall the chapter the authors of Shattered Sword "do the math" somewhat vaguely, but I think they calculated less time was needed than you are requireing of them.

quote:


You state that the policy was to close to give the pilots in damaged machines a better chance of returning to the flattops, but that is not actually supported by the movements of either side's fleets that afternoon.

That's not correct. Not for either side.


Oh really? I saw absolutely no reference in Shattered Sword or Spruance's Biography that states explicitly "Admiral so-and-so set course xxx degrees, speed x, for x time, in an effort to give his fuel starved aircraft a better chance at finding their way home."

Maybe my memory is spotty. However, as I recall, these course changes were always explained as reaction to enemy planes, flight deck operations (wind considerations), sub sightings, and finally, the suspected postions of the enemy. But that last is not in regards to battle damaged airmen, but to give your airmen more time over target, and more time to set a search pattern for the bad guys in case the spotting intel (or navigation) was poor.

Niether side's TF launched rescue attempts to find downed aviators, or aviators running out of gas. Both sides pulled airmen out of the sea if they ditched near the ship or TF, but they did not leave off their duties of stalking the enemy until after the battle was clearly over. The American airmen who ditched out of sight of the TF's were searched for, by land based assets from Midway, not the CV TF's.

quote:

Probably he should have but doing so would have put him right in the middle of Enterprise's coordinated, but wayward, strike. He'd still have lost three or four CVs.


Look at the tracks again. Not Enterprise, but Hornet's. (Hornet's strike flew due west from Hornet. Enterprise/Yorktown strikes flew SW.) And the Enterprise/Yortown strikes would have found nada. So, maybe not 3 or 4 CV's lost after all...

quote:

It doesn't matter what he knew. By 8 AM it was the most likely outcome. The strike was on the way. The only way to avoid the strike was to run due west, forget about attacking Midway, and throw away the absurdly tight timetable for the whole operation. Remember, his timetable DEMANDED that he finish off Midway as a functional airbase by dusk on the first day, with or without opposition from American CVs. Given how much bullshit he took for falling back after his Pearl Harbor mission, one can hardly blame him for being offensive minded in pursuit of the objectives of the Operational Plan. Besides, being offensive minded was so ingrained into the Japanese doctrine that it's hard to imagine any other admiral doing anything differently.


Yet, he was the man on the scene. It is his assets doing the scouting and fighting. He needs to make that call, especially in the face of unexpectedly greater resistance. "Not my fault! Not my job to worry!" Doesnt wash. Not with me.

Yamamoto was seeing most of the spotting reports, but on a hour or two delay greater than Nagumo. To assume that Yamamoto was in an ideal, or even better, position to micromanage the KB that day than Nagumo is a bit of a stretch, I think.

I think Yamamoto would rather have had the invasion of Midway thrown into disarray, and survive, than to stick to it and lose four CV's...

To sum it all up, you seem to feel, as Demosthenes, that it was all over by 8AM, and there was nothing at all that the IJN could have done to effect the outcome, in any meaningful way?

Those jerks! They should have save us the trouble and scuttled their ships at 0815, it would have saved more lives!

Sigh. I feel that I am not making any headway, and that I am trying to swim up a waterfall... Are my communication skills that bad? *sniff*

quote:

Nagumo retained command of Shokaku, Zuikaku, & Zuiho, because Yamamoto was the guy who botched up the Midway operation and everyone involved knew it. Nagumo did not lose those CVs. Yamamoto did. The only blame that accrues to Nagumo is for not running away when all he had remaining was Hiryu and the understrength remnants of Kido Butai's air groups.


Agreed. Once they reviewed the action objectively, they realised Yamamoto's overall plan had some glaring faults. But the tactical handling of the KB was always Nagumo's task. Noone else's.


< Message edited by mlees -- 5/18/2006 10:35:54 PM >

(in reply to mdiehl)
Post #: 179
RE: History or Balance - 5/18/2006 11:37:41 PM   
mdiehl

 

Posts: 5998
Joined: 10/21/2000
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quote:

The handling characteristics of the IJN carriers were a bit more restrictive, but I recall the chapter the authors of Shattered Sword "do the math" somewhat vaguely, but I think they calculated less time was needed than you are requireing of them.


About 45 seconds per elevator trip and small elevators for the job. That's 45 seconds up to the flight deck and 45 seconds down to the hangar deck for another plane. More if the plane is parked on the lower hangar deck. That's, say, about 1.5 minutes per plane just to get them up to the deck, plus another minute each for handling time on the hangar deck and flight deck, plus about 20 minutes of other prep activities including engine run up, plus about 45 seconds per plane to launch. So a ten plane strike requires at minimum about 45 minutes from the time you decide to launch. You get an economy of scale with more planes because they can all do their engine runs up on deck.

During those 45 minutes you can't land a plane because either (a) there's a.c. parked on the flight deck, or (b) there's a cavernous hole in the flight deck where the elevator is busy fetching its first plane.

quote:

Oh really? I saw absolutely no reference in Shattered Sword or Spruance's Biography that states explicitly "Admiral so-and-so set course xxx degrees, speed x, for x time, in an effort to give his fuel starved aircraft a better chance at finding their way home."


Yeah really. Just because no one ordered special measures to be taken to make sure pilots weren't unnecessarily lost doesn't mean regular planning didn't try to prevent unnecessary loss of pilots. Even in the IJN people were not so callous about their assets that they'd just eliminate half of them on the prospect of maybe launching a strike at an ambiguous target.

That's why both US vessels continued to close the range after launch. It was doctrine, not something that required specific explanation when setting a course.

quote:

Maybe my memory is spotty. However, as I recall, these course changes were always explained as reaction to enemy planes, flight deck operations (wind considerations), sub sightings, and finally, the suspected postions of the enemy. But that last is not in regards to battle damaged airmen, but to give your airmen more time over target, and more time to set a search pattern for the bad guys in case the spotting intel (or navigation) was poor.


There's lots of good reasons for closing the range. Time over target was not a big factor though for the Midway attack force. You don't need to waste alot of time hunting around for the target because it's not going anywhere. Indeed, the longer you spend flying around the target and setting up your attack, for a place like an atoll or island anyhow, you just give the enemy's AAA officers more time to find the range.

quote:

Niether side's TF launched rescue attempts to find downed aviators, or aviators running out of gas.


? The US launched numerous PBY rescue sorties, and submarines cruised the area after the battle as well, rescuing both American and in Tambor's case Japanese fliers. Most of the IJN fliers that had to ditch in the waters around Kido Butai were picked up by plane guards and other IJN vessels. Most of the Japanese fliers killed at Midway died at the hands of US F4F pilots (and a couple SBDs) and US flak. Another 30 or so died on the Japanese ships when the US bombs hit or "disappeared." 3 USN TBD crew were also rescued, interrogated, and executed by the Japanese.

Who else would the US have used for rescue sorties? The USN CVs did not carry float planes. They did in 1938 (even had a hangar deck gun-catapult similar to the ones used on CAs and BBs) but those were removed prior to the war.

quote:

Both sides pulled airmen out of the sea if they ditched near the ship or TF, but they did not leave off their duties of stalking the enemy until after the battle was clearly over. The American airmen who ditched out of sight of the TF's were searched for, by land based assets from Midway, not the CV TF's.


CV TF mimimization of friendly losses doctrine was to close the range to give aircraft with short fuel reserves a chance to return to their CVs, as was common with damaged aircraft or a.c. launched at extreme range. Spruance close the range before launching specifically to give his pilots a better edge in that calculus.

Nothing about proper doctrine demands that the CVs physically sail to the locations of downed crewmen. That's a whole different problem from the simple doctrinal practice of closing the range to aid friendly damaged or low-fuel planes.

quote:

Look at the tracks again. Not Enterprise, but Hornet's. (Hornet's strike flew due west from Hornet. Enterprise/Yorktown strikes flew SW.) And the Enterprise/Yorktown strikes would have found nada. So, maybe not 3 or 4 CV's lost after all...


Umm, well, with 20-20 hindsight, and known US flights, one can cherry pick a narrow corridor that avoids the US strikes. I'm not going to fault Nagumo for not being psychic enough to know in advance exactly which route to sail to not be seen by the enemy.

quote:

Yet, he was the man on the scene. It is his assets doing the scouting and fighting. He needs to make that call, especially in the face of unexpectedly greater resistance. "Not my fault! Not my job to worry!" Doesnt wash. Not with me.


"Not my fault not my job to worry" isn't anyone's position here. The problem for Nagumo is that the intel he had was weak, ambiguous, and obviously flawed. Your position rests entirely on the presumption that Nagumo should have known exactly where and how many US CVs were there, which search and strike routes the US *would* use, and so forth.

When you consider the *context* -- the rigid timetable for occupying Midway, the obvious fact that Midway was still operational, and the deeply flawed plan generated by Yamamoto that DEMANDED the absence of US CVs, I can't see how Nagumo could avoid the catch -22 into which your argument paints him.

You fault him for not having perfect intel and opfor assessment on the enemy. It's like you think the Japanese were "the Others" in some episode of LOST.

If he'd set the timetable back 24 hours and that vague, ambiguous, position erroneous contact report had really turned out to be, say, something like an escort carrier sending some reinforcement planes to Midway, pretty much everyone in Imperial Navy HQ would have been pissed at Nagumo for delaying the invasion. Probably he'd have been personally blamed for every ground casualty in the landing force on the grounds that he'd tipped off the Marines on Midway and given them extra time to prepare for the coming Japanese assault. Doubly blamed at that because probably the division Japan wanted to land (which had to *wade* through chest deep water for over 200 yards before the men could get to wet sand and barbed wire) would likely have failed in its mission.

quote:

To assume that Yamamoto was in an ideal, or even better, position to micromanage the KB that day than Nagumo is a bit of a stretch, I think.


No one has made that assumption. Micromanagement would not have solved the problem. The problem was essentially that there was no effective solution to the problem other than to have come to the battle with a completely different operational plan and several more CVs.

quote:

I think Yamamoto would rather have had the invasion of Midway thrown into disarray, and survive, than to stick to it and lose four CV's...


I think Yamamoto could not count on having any CVs survive after he made the decision to send 4 CVs to do the job of 6-8 CVs unless the American CVs simply did not show up at all. That's why the plan was such a crappy plan.

quote:

To sum it all up, you seem to feel, as Demosthenes, that it was all over by 8AM, and there was nothing at all that the IJN could have done to effect the outcome, in any meaningful way?


Several things could have been done to affect the outcome.

1. Retire, immediately, on receipt of contact report with an enemy TF. As you have suggested, the TF, even though no carriers were reported, was behaving "oddly." Japanese pre-operational gaming demonstrated that one or two US CVs could really screw the Japanese. And they weren't supposed to be there at all. If one assumes as you would have Nagumo assume that the ambiguous contact report should have been assumed immediately to be a US CV, the best possible immediate move was to retire. That'd put all the Japanese a.c. in the hanger decks back in stowage, drained of fuel, and munitions in ordnance lockers. Then even if the US strike had hit home, one or more of Kaga, Akagi, and Soryu might have returned to port -- albeit damaged.

2. Retire, immediately, after Kaga, Akagi, and Soryu were hit. That saves Hiryu and Mikuma, plus all those below-deck engineers from the wrecked three CVs.

3. Not recover or launch CAP. Lose most of Midway strike ditched in the water (you'd get most of the aircrews back). Instead, spot and launch a strike beginning around 7:45 AM against the US TF. But then...

you've lost half your offensive assets, and
you've got less CAP for dealing with the US TBDs
so you probably take torpedo hits in addition to bomb hits.

In return for which your anti-ship armed wave launched circa 8 AM finds and plasters Yorktown. That leaves you with Hiryu to carry on the fight. Which against 2 US CVs and Midway was not going to carry the day by herself.

quote:

Sigh. I feel that I am not making any headway, and that I am trying to swim up a waterfall... Are my communication skills that bad? *sniff*


No, I just think you've completely glossed over the detailed mechanics of flight ops, assumed that Nagumo had more authority than he may have had**, and assumed that the Japanese operational plan was flexible enough to deal with a contingency such as US CVs. I think all three of those assumptions are wrong. And as Shattered Sword makes it clear, Nagumo did not have time after 8 AM to spot a substantial strike against anything.

** Nagumo's authority extended only over Mobile Force, not the whole operation. So he may not have had authority to upset the invasion timetable anyhow, since changing the Operational Plan vis a vis Kido Butai's responsibilities would have forced changes to Main Body (landing force) plan, and the landing force was outside of his chain of command.

quote:

Agreed. Once they reviewed the action objectively, they realised Yamamoto's overall plan had some glaring faults. But the tactical handling of the KB was always Nagumo's task. Noone else's.


The faults were known before the ships even sailed for Midway. The Japanese chose to ignore the known faults. They used a plan that required that NO US CVs intervene. Nagumo's tactical decision making wasn't the problem at least not until after he'd lost three CVs. (I do fault him for the unnecessary loss of Hiryu and Mikuma).

That's why the Japanese plan was so wonky. It acknowledged in pre-operational wargaming, and in the operational plan, the *theoretical possibility* of US CVs being in the area, and it acknowledged that such an eventuality would constitute a dire threat to the operation, but allocated woefully inadequate resources to deal with that contingency.

The Japanese knew that it was a crappy plan. A really horribly bad plan that required perfect timing on their ships, perfect execution of all searches, perfect accuracy from their bombers, and perfect stupidity on the part of the OpFor, should any OpFor be present at all (which, it was assumed, would not be the case). Despite the fact that everybody knew it was a crappy plan, they attempted to execute the plan. It was rife with flaws, used woefully inadequate force, and was intolerant of any kind of error at all.

_____________________________

Show me a fellow who rejects statistical analysis a priori and I'll show you a fellow who has no knowledge of statistics.

Didn't we have this conversation already?

(in reply to Ursa MAior)
Post #: 180
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