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RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 3:05:49 AM

Incy

Posts: 336
Joined: 10/25/2003
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quote:

There's a port named Pakhoi down there (Wosung may have a better name for it), should I add it ?
I'm not bothered by the obbligation to have an HQ on the coast to open the supply to Nanning. Why would it be a problem ? This is a common feature with China in WiF FE.

I would prefer the port there because it allows an operation against Nanning without an HQ, which I think is historical. But most important, I want a port there because it allows Japan to maintain an in-supply defence around Nanning and the nearby resource without an HQ. I think this is important, since it would be a big help for a Japan that gets on the defensive/lacks HQ's. If there's no port Japan will normally not be able to defend this area once it gets on the defensive, and the resource will go back to china. Having Japan thrown into the sea is very common in the late game, and is not good for play balance. If you add Pakhoi (and a port a few hexes northwest of Canton), Japan is able to set a defensive line that will be in supply in clear weather without a HQ, is mostly in mountains, and allows transportation of both southern resources.

For the same reason I'd like Hangchow to be a port. It allows Japan to hold a shorter, better line behind lake Poyang-hu. That to will make it much easier for Japan to maintain a reasonable foothold in China in the late game.

Also for the same reason I'm not 100% happy about the placement of the resource NE of Nanking. As the map is now, Japan can't set a reasonable line that will allow it to transport this resource. The hexes NW and SW of the resource makes for a very good "last stand" line, and it would be much better if the resource could be transportable with chinese west of this line. I don't have a good fix, but maybe a rail/road leading more directly to the sea or directly to Shanghai?

I do like that all 3 resources are in forest hexes, that makes partisans stronger and more effective and encourages Japan to garission it's rear. Btw, there should be a couple of forest hexes sprinkled across the northern half of China, to give partisans some places to hide out in those wide, open plains.

For the added central mountains, I like them (from a game balance perspective, I don't know much chinese geography). Otherwise the central plain becomes just to large and open.

I also like the new silk road. As it is now it's a bit exposed to Japanese raiders, but it also makes it very difficult for Japan to obtain the resource for it's own use. Using a road rather than railroad is very good, since it means Japan CAN continue it's advance along the road, but no units can be railed in/out, and it becomes very, very vulnerable to partisans. I vote to make as much as possible west of Sian into road, we do want to discourage Japan from comletely taking out communist China and putting the northwestern resource into use. If Japan cuts the road, China has supply from Sining to reopen the road by killing the raider

(in reply to oldtimer)

Post #: 121

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 5:19:31 AM

Ullern

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Hello all. I just added an account just to comment this thread. (Finnaly in here, or what?

)
Nils Ulrik

I vote yes to all cities on this newest version Patrice (froonp) posted. Very good. (Nice job by wosung on the names.

)

I noticed the newly added city Ankang was left out of the discussion but kept so far. I am absolutely for having this city, both because it�s necessary to keep the Chinese nationalist in front of the mountains in supply, but also because I think it�s a city the Japanese can ignore. (1: In WIF FE nationalist Chinese in front of mountains could trace supply directly to Chung-King in fine weather.) (2: Ankang is that rearwards it should only be a problem for the Japanese if the Japanese are in the Chung King area, but if the Japanese are there China will soon fall, and then Japan should be able to screen the cities until that happens.)

Patrice already pointed out some of my comments; one of them was a question to add more difficult terrain. Actually the only thing Patrice got wrong about me was that I said add difficult terrain in general, not to add lake hex sides, instead I actually debated wehter to remove lake hex sides ;-0. (no harm done.)

On suggested China mountains:
I think they are good but I think that the top four of the mountain hexes encircled in red should be put one hex shout west of where they are. That would put Nanyang in the mountains, but I think that would be correct and also it won�t really be important because Nanyang starts Japanese controlled. (Doesn�t it? Reality check on the Japanese 39 line?)

Shanghai:
After having a look at my own Atlas I think there should be an all sea hexside NE of Shangai. (Was that the question?)

Silk Road:
I didn�t like the long Silk Road.

More comments to follow.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 122

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 5:23:46 AM

Ullern

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A short r�sum� on game balance issues so far, from my own view, and own opinions added:

Iomyring claimed Japan is more aggressive towards China in computer WIF (post 16) and I agree on this and I further claim that this is because the cost of conquering China has gone down while at the same time the benefit of taking China out has gone up, compared to WIF FE. The first claim is easily argued simply by the fact that most people in this forum seems to agree that China is more easily taken out in computerized WIF compared to WIF FE. The second claim I have no experience for myself, but again I believe Iomyring when he says the Japanese has great supply problems in China, and I do think it�s worse than in WIF FE, and because of that, if Japan for some reason does not take China early, the Japanese will be worse of late in the game, and hence have more to gain by conquering China early.

But as Incy pointed out, the cities does help defender whoever he is, because of -1 on combat table and choice of combat type (post 57). However this effect is not enough to get the China campaign to what it should be:
In China, lack of arm-type units will usually leave combat choice to defender anyway, and the effect of -1 in combat a few more places is hardly gonna change the China campaign to what we are used to from WIF FE. It�s still likely that the Japanese will just run around and manage to get a few cities without a fight. The effect that we are seeking is that China must have the ability to stay in supply even when loosing a city like this, and there should be ways to get the units quicker to the front (mless post 64). The suggested cities does the trick I believe, and we actually need that many of them to do so.

I am still not sure that this is enough. Both the Chinese and the Japanese still have a problem with mobility. I�ll add detail to this in the next post, but in general I think the current solution might need some play testing to reveal the answer.

Nils

(in reply to Ullern)

Post #: 123

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 5:27:14 AM

Ullern

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China mobility problem (more difficult terrain?):
Incy wrote: (post 57) China should be line upon line upon line upon line, and partisans in the rear if one advances to far...
And Steve replied (post 67): One limiting factor for the Japanese advance is the number of land attacks it can make each turn. If you make every other hex in China an obstacle, or increase the number of defensive lines by a factor of 2 or 3, then you force that many more atttacks to be made to reach each objective.

I think Steve missed the point here. If you make every other hex in China an obstacle does not imply that Japan needs to do more attacks compared to WIF FE. The basic is that in WIF FE the next line was always the next hex row, which meant that the Chinese was always able to get there (except Japanese double impulse), though Chinese often flipped. In MWIF it will be many hexes in between, and Japan have more movement points compared to the Chinese. <think about that> The issue might quickly be that the Chinese realise it�s not possible to fall back to the next line because the Japanese will get there first anyway. (This might be the case even if the new line is just the second hexrow back.) So instead the Chinese have to just stay put with the current line and pray it will take the Japanese that long to get to the next line that the Chinese are able to build a new line with newly produced units.

What I am saying is that if the Chinese have a line somewhere and it�s breached, a possible scenario for the Chinese is that China has to forfeit all the units there and use them only as speed bumps while they build up a new line in the rear.

To be able to build up a line in the rear it�s necessary with both more cities (already taken care of) but also more choices of defensive lines (if not it would be to easy for the Japanese to jeopardise the line). This strategy will still be more costly than what China used to in WIF FE.

(By the way: After a low land or �front� mountain line have been breaced, the three new cities in the mountains does make the creation of a new line in the center of the mountain possible. This didn�t use to be possible because all new units had to walk from ChunkKing and Cheng-tu which means they likely met the Japanese already in the rear (western) part of the mountain area.)

On the up side for the Chinese is that this is a bit theoretical and might not be true. In some cases it may very well be possible to extract some or all Chinese units in a line. Because of that it�s hard to say how much the above arguments should be weighted. MWIF need some play test proper.

Japan supply problem, and possible action limit problem (more rail lines or move resources?):
I don�t have any in depth on this. But if the Japanese does really have a harder time with supply (Iomyring claimed this in post 16), which I am ready to believe they have, I think the two solutions that have come up: more rail lines or move some resources closer to the sea both will do fine.

Also someone mentioned that with the more mobile camapaign in China, a Japan may be forced to take spend more action limits in China late game (will influence impulse choise). That might be the case, but again this have to be wighted against how the game is changed in other theatres. If the Pacicif campaign have become easier for the Japanese, then this will be ok, if not then .... (Have anyone really had the opportunity to figure out how the Pacific campaign will unfold, and even if someone had that opportunity in earlier game test, have anyone experience after the more limited break down rule was added? What about considering the number of ports and island in the pacific? _ but that will be an entirely different topic.)

Nils

(in reply to Ullern)

Post #: 124

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 6:43:22 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

Also someone mentioned that with the more mobile camapaign in China, a Japan may be forced to take spend more action limits in China late game (will influence impulse choise). That might be the case, but again this have to be wighted against how the game is changed in other theatres. If the Pacicif campaign have become easier for the Japanese, then this will be ok, if not then .... (Have anyone really had the opportunity to figure out how the Pacific campaign will unfold, and even if someone had that opportunity in earlier game test, have anyone experience after the more limited break down rule was added? What about considering the number of ports and island in the pacific? _ but that will be an entirely different topic.)

Nils

I do not expect a lot of change in the Pacific campaign from WIF FE to MWIF. There will be some due to change in scale, but that is ue to some islands becoming 2 hexes instead of 1, or 4 instead of 2. The number and size of the sea areas is unchanged and there is no change to the ports (aside from what are being discussed in China). This means that naval movement should be the same. The only big effect will be moving air units from land bases into non-adjacent sea areas. That is, when you want to take a naval air unit that has long range capability and have it control/threaten to control several important sea areas at the same time.

For example, the Japanese have some very strong long range naval air units and it used to be possible to position a group of them in a central location and intimidate the Allied player from moving task forces into any of them. My basic strategy for defending Japan, once the US achieves superiority in carrier units, is to have a 'hammer' of a Japanese carrier fleet, supported by naval air and long range fighters, to defend sea areas. That strategy would be weakened by the inability of the naval air units to reach as many sea areas as previously.

In regard to the effect of all this on China, I think it is a side issue. The other topics under discussion are vastly more important for the Japan versus China conflict, and acheiving play balance there.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Ullern)

Post #: 125

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 8:06:57 AM

lomyrin

Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

Also someone mentioned that with the more mobile camapaign in China, a Japan may be forced to take spend more action limits in China late game (will influence impulse choise). That might be the case, but again this have to be wighted against how the game is changed in other theatres. If the Pacicif campaign have become easier for the Japanese, then this will be ok, if not then .... (Have anyone really had the opportunity to figure out how the Pacific campaign will unfold, and even if someone had that opportunity in earlier game test, have anyone experience after the more limited break down rule was added? What about considering the number of ports and island in the pacific? _ but that will be an entirely different topic.)

Nils

I do not expect a lot of change in the Pacific campaign from WIF FE to MWIF. There will be some due to change in scale, but that is ue to some islands becoming 2 hexes instead of 1, or 4 instead of 2. The number and size of the sea areas is unchanged and there is no change to the ports (aside from what are being discussed in China). This means that naval movement should be the same. The only big effect will be moving air units from land bases into non-adjacent sea areas. That is, when you want to take a naval air unit that has long range capability and have it control/threaten to control several important sea areas at the same time.

For example, the Japanese have some very strong long range naval air units and it used to be possible to position a group of them in a central location and intimidate the Allied player from moving task forces into any of them. My basic strategy for defending Japan, once the US achieves superiority in carrier units, is to have a 'hammer' of a Japanese carrier fleet, supported by naval air and long range fighters, to defend sea areas. That strategy would be weakened by the inability of the naval air units to reach as many sea areas as previously.

In regard to the effect of all this on China, I think it is a side issue. The other topics under discussion are vastly more important for the Japan versus China conflict, and acheiving play balance there.

It was probably my comments on the effects on Japan of adding many cities in China that were referred to.

In the unmodified China, Japan tended to do very well in capturing resources with very few losses. This allowed Japan to allocate more build points and units to their Pacific campaign against the USA and CW.

With the extra cities in China I think Japan will suffer more casualties and have a harder time to get and keep control of the resourses there. This will reduce the Japanese buid point availability for naval and air units needed for the Pacific advances. In this way Japan will be weaker against the USA than with the unmodified China map.

On the other hand it has been my experience in CWiF that Japan has often been perhaps too strong in the Pacific. With that in mind, perhaps the additional Chinese cities will help rectify that as well as help China itself.

Lars

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 126

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 11:09:39 AM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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Thanks for the Comments Nils.

quote:

Japan supply problem, and possible action limit problem (more rail lines or move resources?):
I don�t have any in depth on this. But if the Japanese does really have a harder time with supply (Iomyring claimed this in post 16), which I am ready to believe they have, I think the two solutions that have come up: more rail lines or move some resources closer to the sea both will do fine.

About this (Japan supply problem), this is a problem in WiF FE too. Japan must have 3 HQ in China with WiF FE if he wants to be in supply correctly about everywhere.
For me, adding railways is absolutely forbidden.

quote:

I vote yes to all cities on this newest version Patrice (froonp) posted. Very good. (Nice job by wosung on the names. )

You vote yes to all cities, but what are "all" ?
The latest maps I posted do not show the cities that were already voted out.

Same question to Incy, who wanted "a lot of cities".

Features to vote YES / NO :

North zone :
Ankang
Sining
Tienshui (was Tianshui)
Tungkwan (was Tongguan)
Yennan
Ningsia (Yinchuan)
Paochi (was Baoji) (not on the latest maps posted)
Paotow (not on the latest maps posted)

More Desert NW & W of the line Lanchow-Taiyuan
Road to Lanchow and resource far away

Coastal :
Wuhan (moved 1 hex NW)
Anking (replacing Hofei)
Hofei (was Hefei) (replaced by Anking) (not on the latest maps posted)
Paoting (was Baoding)
Nanchang
Nanyang (replacing Xiangfan)
Xiangfan (replaced by Nanyang) (not on the latest maps posted)
Suchow
Tsingkow (port) (was Xinhailian (port))

New Mountain (Between Anking & Sian)
New Lake hexside east of Shanghai
New River along the railway Tientsin, Tsinan, Suchow (the imperial channel) (not represented on the map)

South
Chihchiang
Kweilin (replacing Liuchow)
Liuchow (replaced by Kweilin)
Hengyang (not on the latest maps posted, it is a proposal of Wosung that no one supported yet)
Zhanjiang (to provide supply south of Nanning from the sea)

Move resource south

< Message edited by Froonp -- 5/28/2006 11:37:34 AM >

(in reply to Ullern)

Post #: 127

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 11:37:42 AM

Froonp

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quote:

I would prefer the port there because it allows an operation against Nanning without an HQ, which I think is historical. But most important, I want a port there because it allows Japan to maintain an in-supply defence around Nanning and the nearby resource without an HQ.

On the WiF FE maps, Japanese units south of Nanning are on the coast, so they are in supply from being there.
On the MWiF map, this is not the case, as units south of Nanning are not sure to be on the coast.
For that reason I would agree to add a minot port somewhere around here, but I'd prefer not to add Pakhoi, because it is too near to Nanning, and offers a penetration possibility (the rail is not far neither) to the Japanese that they dont' have in WiF FE.
I would prefer to add Zhanjiang which is in the hex NW of the strait hexside that goes into Hainan. Wosung, would you know a 1940 name for it ?

quote:

For the same reason I'd like Hangchow to be a port. It allows Japan to hold a shorter, better line behind lake Poyang-hu. That to will make it much easier for Japan to maintain a reasonable foothold in China in the late game.

Hangchow cannot be a supply source from the sea in WiF FE, so I would not want to make it such in MWiF. Japan can also use HQ to be in supply, and must do, as it must in WiF FE.

(in reply to Incy)

Post #: 128

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 11:42:21 AM

Froonp

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New shot at the southern zone, with the Zhanjiang minor port added.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 129

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 11:44:37 AM

Froonp

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Also, in the south portion, I proposed to move Chungking (and the river around it and the factories and the resources) 1 hex SE, so that all hexes on the other side of the rivers would be mountains (well, nearly all), as in the WiF FE maps.

Comments ?

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 130

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 12:45:58 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Also, in the south portion, I proposed to move Chungking (and the river around it and the factories and the resources) 1 hex SE, so that all hexes on the other side of the rivers would be mountains (well, nearly all), as in the WiF FE maps.

Comments ?

I am not real happy about moving the city just to give it a better view of the mountains.

Yeah, I know, you want to make it easier to defend. Still that seems like a lot. The Chinese have three rows of mountains the Japanese have to punch through before they get to the city behind the river. I don't see this improvement to the Chinese defensive position as being obviously warranted. If play test gives us results where the Japanese run over the Chinese, then we can look at alternatives such as this.

In general, there are a lot of changes being proposed. I would want to test a minimal set that we think is reasonable. Assess how that does and then make adjustments. If there are too many moving parts, it is difficult to determine what is causing what.

On the other hand, I am not proposing a Spartan approach either. Something reasonable, but on the minimalistic side.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 131

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 12:52:12 PM

wosung

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

I would prefer the port there because it allows an operation against Nanning without an HQ, which I think is historical. But most important, I want a port there because it allows Japan to maintain an in-supply defence around Nanning and to add Zhanjiang which is in the hex NW of the strait hexside that goes into Hainan. Wosung, would you know a 1940 name for it ?

quote:

For the same reason I'd like Hangchow to be a port. It allows Japan to hold a shorter, better line behind lake Poyang-hu. That to will make it much easier for Japan to maintain a reasonable foothold in China in the late game.

Hangchow cannot be a supply source from the sea in WiF FE, so I would not want to make it such in MWiF. Japan can also use HQ to be in supply, and must do, as it must in WiF FE.

Ok,

-on the big traffic map of China 1935 by Tang Leang-li Pakhoi is the only named Port between Canton and Haiphong, but

-in the Times Atlas off WW2 the China map (1938-41) p. 35 shows 5 costal cities between Canton and Pakhoi (= modern name Peihai), nearly all with fitting transcription, from north to south:

1. Toushan
2. Kuanghaicheng (for MWIF would be Kwanghaicheng)
3. Tienpai
4. Shuitangshih
5. Hoihong (which seems to be your Zhanjiang)

But please note that all these 5 are much smaller, less important places than Pakhoi.

Quite big and important additional ports between Foochow and Canton would be Amoy (today Xiamen) and Swatow (today Shantou), also see: Times Atlas off WW2 the China map (1938-41) p. 35.

What else?

1. On the last list of additional cities Xiangfan should read Siangfan.

2. for placing partisan friendly terrain, you could stick to provincial border regions, as on the map in Times Atlas off WW2 "China 1926" p. 33. Provincial borders didn't change to WW2, and were classical bandit retreat country. Mao lived half if his life in such border areas.

Regards

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 132

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 12:52:24 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
New shot at the southern zone, with the Zhanjiang minor port added.

It looks to me as if this additional port enables the Japanese to have one additional hex from which to attack Nanning with out an HQ. I am assuming that Hanoi and Haiphong are in Japanese hands already. It really seem to be there to support attacking the resource hex northeast of Nanning.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 133

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 1:02:34 PM

wosung

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Well,

Nanning in 1941 fell to the Japanese.

Regards

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 134

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 1:07:22 PM

wosung

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Until 1944/45 (after Ichigo Offensive) Japanese Army reached the line:

Nanning - Kweilin - Changsha - Taiyuan. Sian stayed National Chinese.

Times Atlas WW2 p. 144.

Regards

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 135

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 1:14:34 PM

wosung

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Correction:

Sian until 1944/45 was still under "neutral" Warlord Yan Hsi-shan.
(which I know is not possible to simulate in WIF)

regards

(in reply to wosung)

Post #: 136

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - Coastal Portion - 5/28/2006 2:34:57 PM

YohanTM2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

There were 3 new cities that received split votes (2 Yes, 2 No) and you kept them in. I suggest that that there be two variations on adding cities:

A - includes the 3 cities with split votes, and
B - excludes those 3 cities.

A gives the Chinese a stronger defensive position, while B is slightly weaker (though much stronger than in CWIF).

I'm going to chime in on the split votes and vote nay. While certainly not the expert on China others here appear to be I am concerned about the effect on play balance.

One of the GREAT things about WiF and the reason it has such a large and long standing following is that it is a great game to play, not neccessarily a great historical recreation. Having lots of options for both sides is part of what makes the game fun. One of the big what ifs is Japan applying extra resources and efforts into China. We don't want to get to the stage where this cannot happen.

Japanese players who commit to this strategy often go down in flames as they are not prepared for the war with the USA. A good Allied player sees the strategy being implemented and builds against it.

WiF has to remain a playable game at its core, not a recreation of WWII. The beauty of a computer game is that changes can be made if the play testers or early palyers find it an issue but I am betting they will not. China may get smacked from time to time but the USA will more often than not defeat Japan in the end.

And if you like Froonp, you can play Axis in our first game and go for China and we will see what happens :)

< Message edited by Yohan -- 5/28/2006 2:43:03 PM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 137

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 3:48:51 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

It looks to me as if this additional port enables the Japanese to have one additional hex from which to attack Nanning with out an HQ. I am assuming that Hanoi and Haiphong are in Japanese hands already. It really seem to be there to support attacking the resource hex northeast of Nanning.

Which means you like this addition or not ?

Having read what Wosung wrote (that Pakhoi is the largest port of the area between Canton & Hanoi), I would prefer not to add any port in this area. Pakhoi is too near from Nanning and the rail.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 138

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - Coastal Portion - 5/28/2006 3:54:24 PM

Froonp

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quote:

I'm going to chime in on the split votes and vote nay. While certainly not the expert on China others here appear to be I am concerned about the effect on play balance.

Vote "nay" to what ?
Split cities were split when there were 4 voters.
Now that Nils voted yes to nearly all, there are no more split votes. Incy voted yes to nearly all too (but I did not accoutn precisely for which cities he voted yes).

Could you be more specific ?

(in reply to YohanTM2)

Post #: 139

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - Coastal Portion - 5/28/2006 4:08:31 PM

YohanTM2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

I'm going to chime in on the split votes and vote nay. While certainly not the expert on China others here appear to be I am concerned about the effect on play balance.

Vote "nay" to what ?
Split cities were split when there were 4 voters.
Now that Nils voted yes to nearly all, there are no more split votes. Incy voted yes to nearly all too (but I did not accoutn precisely for which cities he voted yes).

Could you be more specific ?

Sorry, to the 3 cities that were split 2-2

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 140

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - Coastal Portion - 5/28/2006 4:20:04 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

Sorry, to the 3 cities that were split 2-2

These were Sining, Ningsia (was Yinchuan) and Anking (replaced Hofei).

With this "nay", all 3 go back to 50/50 splited status now, but I did not account for Incy votes (he voted yes for all, even wanting even more cities) because it was right at the start and I'm not shure which city / port was included then.

(in reply to YohanTM2)

Post #: 141

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 6:16:46 PM

Incy

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Features to vote YES / NO :

North zone :
Ankang YES
Sining YES
Tienshui (was Tianshui) YES
Tungkwan (was Tongguan) YES
Yennan YES (but in doubt, as it's a good flanking point for china and may help extend the "active" frontline
Ningsia (Yinchuan) YES

Paochi (was Baoji) (not on the latest maps posted)
Paotow (not on the latest maps posted)
-Don't know where these two are.
-From playbalance perspective I'd wish for a city between Chengtu and Tianshui/Lanchow

More Desert NW & W of the line Lanchow-Taiyuan
-No, desert has good weather in bad weather turns, and is easy to move through, so it's very good "raider country".

Road to Lanchow and resource far away
-I like it, but I'd prefer the road/RR transition to be further east (Sian?)

Coastal :
Wuhan (moved 1 hex NW) Yes (can we have one city on each side of the river??)
Anking (replacing Hofei) Yes ?
Hofei (was Hefei) (replaced by Anking) (not on the latest maps posted) No
Paoting (was Baoding) Yes
Nanchang Yes
Nanyang (replacing Xiangfan) Yes
Xiangfan (replaced by Nanyang) (not on the latest maps posted) No
Suchow Yes
Tsingkow (port) (was Xinhailian (port)) Yes

New Mountain (Between Anking & Sian) Yes.
-Could they extend to the hex SW of Chengchow?

New Lake hexside east of Shanghai Not sure.
New River along the railway Tientsin, Tsinan, Suchow (the imperial channel) (not represented on the map) No

South
Chihchiang
Yes, but it's behing river, on the road, and in mountain. Is it possible to place it so it's not such a juggernaut fortress city? Also, I wouldn't mind a second city in the Chungking/Kweiyang Chichiang triangle (if there is some historical merit to it)
Kweilin (replacing Liuchow) Yes (finally Canton can be attacked by Chinese without an HQ!!)
Liuchow (replaced by Kweilin) No
Hengyang (not on the latest maps posted, it is a proposal of Wosung that no one supported yet) unsure.
Zhanjiang (to provide supply south of Nanning from the sea) Yes, but I still prefer it to the NW

Move resource south
-No, not the southern resources. But possibly the resource in the east, near Shanghai

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 142

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 6:19:54 PM

Incy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Also, in the south portion, I proposed to move Chungking (and the river around it and the factories and the resources) 1 hex SE, so that all hexes on the other side of the rivers would be mountains (well, nearly all), as in the WiF FE maps.

Comments ?

If Mohammad can't g o to the mountain, move the mountain to Mohammad!
I'm in favour of such a change, to make it possible for china to make a viable (partial) hedgehog around Chungking. I don't want Chungking moved closer to the coast.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 143

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map - Coastal Portion - 5/28/2006 6:36:01 PM

Incy

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Joined: 10/25/2003
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan

I'm going to chime in on the split votes and vote nay. While certainly not the expert on China others here appear to be I am concerned about the effect on play balance.

One of the GREAT things about WiF and the reason it has such a large and long standing following is that it is a great game to play, not neccessarily a great historical recreation. Having lots of options for both sides is part of what makes the game fun. One of the big what ifs is Japan applying extra resources and efforts into China. We don't want to get to the stage where this cannot happen.

Japanese players who commit to this strategy often go down in flames as they are not prepared for the war with the USA. A good Allied player sees the strategy being implemented and builds against it.

WiF has to remain a playable game at its core, not a recreation of WWII. The beauty of a computer game is that changes can be made if the play testers or early palyers find it an issue but I am betting they will not. China may get smacked from time to time but the USA will more often than not defeat Japan in the end.

And if you like Froonp, you can play Axis in our first game and go for China and we will see what happens :)

I have played the chinese campaign in CWiF several times, and when you take a landscape filled with mountains, cities and rivers, 6-tuple the number of hexes mostly by adding clear hexes inbetween, and maintain the number of units and supply sources, you move from a stalemate to a war of manouver where every EOT, initiative, battle, etc can tip either side into the abyss. China as it was in CWiF almost always produced a blowout victory for either side. Contrast that with WiFFE, where it was common for this front to stagnate in a draw.

In MWiF, there are NOT enough units in the china theatre to hold/fight over every position/defense line. If you add a lot of good defensive positions you don't increase the number of battles, you just increase the defenders choice of where and how he can make a stand. Most positions will still fall without combat. The greatest danger in MWiF is if either side breaks through a line and then the other side NEVER manages to reestablish a line. This can happen to both sides easily and RUINS the game (IMHO).

For this reason I prefer a map that has good supply and many defensible positions in either sides rear areas

(in reply to YohanTM2)

Post #: 144

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 6:49:28 PM

Incy

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Joined: 10/25/2003
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quote:

It looks to me as if this additional port enables the Japanese to have one additional hex from which to attack Nanning with out an HQ. I am assuming that Hanoi and Haiphong are in Japanese hands already. It really seem to be there to support attacking the resource hex northeast of Nanning.

According to the map froon posted Nanning fell in 1939?

Anyways, if the post is that far to the southeast it won't help Japan construct a viable defense line that lets it use the resource.
I don't think a port further west gives japan a to big advantage. You only have supply 3 hexes from a port (but get 4 hexes from a secondary supply source. So a port 2 hexes SE of Nanning will NOT extend the Japanese reach beyont the reach it allready has from Hanoi. It will just extend reach locally around Nanning. Any advance futer in than Nanning will require HQ(s) and will be ACROSS both the direction of the rails and the weather zone divide , so supply will be very, very problematic.

In the CWiF games I have played (about 4?) A strike in this direction is not common early, usually the main japanese thrusts will be in directioens where it's easier to follow up on a success, i.e. against Sian and beyond, or a pincher against Changsha followed by a drive west along the burma road.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 145

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 7:47:13 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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Thanks for the votes Incy.
I put the answers of the voters in an Excel table, who calculate me what percentage of YES & NO each proposal gets.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy
Yennan YES (but in doubt, as it's a good flanking point for china and may help extend the "active" frontline

If there was enough units, but unfortunately, this is not the case in September 1939 for the Communist.

quote:

Paochi (was Baoji) (not on the latest maps posted)

Was 2 hexes west of Sian. This is here that the rail stops offcially.

quote:

Paotow (not on the latest maps posted)
-Don't know where these two are.

It was at the end of the rail going north and then west from Taiyuan. I commented on her deletion in the first posts I made in this thread.

quote:

-From playbalance perspective I'd wish for a city between Chengtu and Tianshui/Lanchow

Unfortunately I fear there is nothing here. At most, some alpine hexsides.

quote:

More Desert NW & W of the line Lanchow-Taiyuan
-No, desert has good weather in bad weather turns, and is easy to move through, so it's very good "raider country".

Good point. I'll leave this area as is. There are already a vas amount of desert hexes.

quote:

Road to Lanchow and resource far away
-I like it, but I'd prefer the road/RR transition to be further east (Sian?)

It stops 2 hexes west fro Sian normaly.

quote:

Coastal :
Wuhan (moved 1 hex NW) Yes (can we have one city on each side of the river??)

In fact, Wuhan is some sort of supercity, regrouping 3 cities. But this may be too much, it would be a unique case in WiF FE of a city represented by two cities in 2 different hexes..

quote:

New Mountain (Between Anking & Sian) Yes.
-Could they extend to the hex SW of Chengchow?

In fact, those mountains seems to be the least high and the least wide in this area, south of Chengchow, east of Nanyang. They seem to be more dense around Anking (and Wosung asked to put more mountains around Anking IIRC -- But I'm not sure where).

quote:

New Lake hexside east of Shanghai Not sure.

Real geography warrants it, and the way I placed it it is not in the way of anything.

quote:

New River along the railway Tientsin, Tsinan, Suchow (the imperial channel) (not represented on the map) No

South
Chihchiang
Yes, but it's behing river, on the road, and in mountain. Is it possible to place it so it's not such a juggernaut fortress city?

Good point.
The best is to redraw the river passing there so that it flows on the southern & eastern hexsides of the SE & E hexes. This seems correct too on the real maps.

quote:

Also, I wouldn't mind a second city in the Chungking/Kweiyang Chichiang triangle (if there is some historical merit to it)

There is nothing I see to add.

quote:

Hengyang (not on the latest maps posted, it is a proposal of Wosung that no one supported yet) unsure.

I prefer to vote this one out, because it would provide supply to the Chinese in the supply hole (WiF FE maps) east of Canton.

quote:

Zhanjiang (to provide supply south of Nanning from the sea) Yes, but I still prefer it to the NW

So you prefer Pakhoi (would be 2 hexes SE of Nanning) ?

quote:

Move resource south
-No, not the southern resources. But possibly the resource in the east, near Shanghai

Just for clarity, let me warn you that on the map I posted in post #129 (28 May), the Nanning resource is at its normal MWiF place, and the Changsha resource was moved 2 hexes southwards from its original MWiF position.

Look attached map for some Chinese cities WWII location.

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Froonp -- 5/28/2006 7:56:47 PM >

(in reply to Incy)

Post #: 146

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 8:38:30 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

More Desert NW & W of the line Lanchow-Taiyuan
-No, desert has good weather in bad weather turns, and is easy to move through, so it's very good "raider country".

Good point. I'll leave this area as is. There are already a vas amount of desert hexes.

quote:

Road to Lanchow and resource far away
-I like it, but I'd prefer the road/RR transition to be further east (Sian?)

It stops 2 hexes west fro Sian normaly.

quote:

Coastal :
Wuhan (moved 1 hex NW) Yes (can we have one city on each side of the river??)

In fact, Wuhan is some sort of supercity, regrouping 3 cities. But this may be too much, it would be a unique case in WiF FE of a city represented by two cities in 2 different hexes..

quote:

New Mountain (Between Anking & Sian) Yes.
-Could they extend to the hex SW of Chengchow?

In fact, those mountains seems to be the least high and the least wide in this area, south of Chengchow, east of Nanyang. They seem to be more dense around Anking (and Wosung asked to put more mountains around Anking IIRC -- But I'm not sure where).

quote:

New Lake hexside east of Shanghai Not sure.

Real geography warrants it, and the way I placed it it is not in the way of anything.

quote:

New River along the railway Tientsin, Tsinan, Suchow (the imperial channel) (not represented on the map) No

South
Chihchiang
Yes, but it's behing river, on the road, and in mountain. Is it possible to place it so it's not such a juggernaut fortress city?

Good point.
The best is to redraw the river passing there so that it flows on the southern & eastern hexsides of the SE & E hexes. This seems correct too on the real maps.

quote:

Hengyang (not on the latest maps posted, it is a proposal of Wosung that no one supported yet) unsure.

I prefer to vote this one out, because it would provide supply to the Chinese in the supply hole (WiF FE maps) east of Canton.

quote:

Zhanjiang (to provide supply south of Nanning from the sea) Yes, but I still prefer it to the NW

So you prefer Pakhoi (would be 2 hexes SE of Nanning) ?

quote:

Move resource south
-No, not the southern resources. But possibly the resource in the east, near Shanghai

Just for clarity, let me warn you that on the map I posted in post #129 (28 May), the Nanning resource is at its normal MWiF place, and the Changsha resource was moved 2 hexes southwards from its original MWiF position.

This is a good discussion, with people being open to other viewpoints, and offering their own. Patrice, you are doing an excellent job of keeping this wide stream of information organized.

Here is my response to the points you and Incy were discussing (I realize that I am only looking at one of the maps you probably have for reference, and that they are unlikely to always agree):

Having the rail line run west of Sian to Tianshui, as you have drawn it. Historical accuracy syas this is right. WIF FE has it continue on to Lanchow. Stopping it at Sian goes against both of those reasons. If we need a stronger China in that area, let's find some other way.

As to more desert northeast of Lanchow, I would vote yes. Any raiders would be sacrificial lambs since theor supply would be cut. If the argument is that it would enable flanking maneuvers, then I would be more receptive to the status quo. In general I like matching the actual geography and the WIF FE maps whenever the 2 are in agreement. Which I believe is the case here.

One Wuhan city would be my prefernce, but I am quite flexible on this. The European map frequently has clusters of cities - central England comes to mind.

For the Anking mountains, I would like to see what Wosung proposed in more detail.

A Shanghai lake resort for summer water skiing seems like a keen idea.

No strong preference about the river around Chichiang. I can see Incy's point clearly and I also could see someone arguing for a good defensive strongpoint for the Chinese. On the WIF FE map, the geography between Changsha and Chungking is merely mountains, but the defensive line only requires defending two hexes. Here the distance is greatly increased between the two cities (from 3 hexes to 10) which has the side effect of requiring a longer defensive line to prevent flanking.

Inserting Pakhoi would be my choice. It has historical credibility and addresses the problem that Incy raised. [Provides Japanese supply to the hex due east of Nanning for attacking that city and the resource point NE.]

The river running south of Nanning doesn't exist in WIF FE. That hasn't been discussed here as either a good or a bad change.

The rail line from Nanning to the resource NE of it doesn't appear on the historical map. If that is truly the case, I would prefer this linkage to be a road connection. The rail line would run from Kweilin to the resource.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 147

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 9:16:53 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

For the Anking mountains, I would like to see what Wosung proposed in more detail.

Wosung, you wanted more mountains around Anking ?
Could you try to be more specific as to which hexes ?

quote:

No strong preference about the river around Chichiang. I can see Incy's point clearly and I also could see someone arguing for a good defensive strongpoint for the Chinese. On the WIF FE map, the geography between Changsha and Chungking is merely mountains, but the defensive line only requires defending two hexes. Here the distance is greatly increased between the two cities (from 3 hexes to 10) which has the side effect of requiring a longer defensive line to prevent flanking.

If I move the river, it does not weaken the defensive line, it just put the city and the river in 2 separate hexes. One way or the other, the river will have to be crossed.

quote:

The river running south of Nanning doesn't exist in WIF FE. That hasn't been discussed here as either a good or a bad change.

In WiF FE, Nanning is in a mountain with a river on 3 sides.
Here is is in plains, with the river on 2 sides only.
Something needs to be done.
Comments ?

quote:

The rail line from Nanning to the resource NE of it doesn't appear on the historical map. If that is truly the case, I would prefer this linkage to be a road connection. The rail line would run from Kweilin to the resource.

Seems to be like this on WWII maps.
Will do it like you say.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 148

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 10:46:09 PM

wosung

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wosung

Selection of new cities:

(...)
The nowadays more important Hofei could be substituted with Anking (just one hex apart, in the mountainous Yangzi-hex to the south east, then Provincial capital of Anhwei).
(...)

About Anking: As I said above.

The China Handbook 1937-44, names it the Capital of Anhwei Province with the alternative Name (Hwaining) in brackets. But personally I prefer Anking.

About additional mountains there:

As far as I can see they would be warranted in the 2 hexes just south of Anking. That means: The 2 hexes east of Wuhan.

Note that Anking itself is a Yangtze port, in what seems to be a steep vally.

Regards

(in reply to wosung)

Post #: 149

RE: Modifications to MWiF China Map portion - 5/28/2006 10:58:45 PM

trees

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I have followed this thread for awhile (and played WiF since 3rd edition)...I would just like to say that perhaps the map of China should be made as realistic as possible. The physical geography of China is what it is. The social geography of China in 1937 can be researched. But the map should represent what the military leaders of the day had to deal with. If there are play-balance / blow-out problems they should be addressed within the game, not by tweaking the map. Now, a wargame map represents a lot of judgement calls; which ports and cities qualify for that status within the rules of a game is a decision that has to be made. Ditto for what side of a river a city is on when the river flows through downtown. But moving things around to change play balance seems like the wrong approach. Or moving them around so things can be how you _want_ them to be...well what military commander wouldn't want to be able to change the terrain in front of him? Can a small port handle the shipping to feed a few score thousand men? The idea of "I want to attack in this direction, can you put a port on the map there for me?" seems wrong.

I have not played CWif. But I have created a paper map of China to play with the regular WiF counters. (Did it with screenshots and the 'Paint' program.) Changing China to the euro-scale hexes made it a very fun game to play; in WiF F.E. that is far less true. I think a basic problem is the partisan system in WiF - with only a 30% chance of a PARTisan unit appearing in a turn, Japan is let off the hook rather too easily. Japan can focus on the front line and ignore their rear areas more than in real life. (And the logistics tail of the real Japanese army might not have been as good as say the European armies, but I don't know enough about that). I know the MWiF project is not intended to change the game right now. But there are many more issues in the China theater that WiF should address. Personally, it is one of my favorite parts of the game, as it helps the players learn about probably the most unknown part of WWII. I have read "Stilwell and the American Experience in China" by Barbara Tuchman but am hoping to learn even more about the theater.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 150