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Some Questions - 6/6/2006 10:54:48 AM

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Hello Hard Sarge,

Is the reworked BTR based on JSs latest OB/OA patches?

If so could we get some things fixed? While I loved the addition of all those additional german production sites (for engines for example) it created the totaly surplus production of german fighters. While I have no doubt that all those factories existed we miss some factors here. For example that a lot parts/engines were build in those factories to build bombers and recon planes (which are not included in BTR for the axis) not to mention the continuous bleeding on the eastern front.

Especially in the 43�campaign the axis can build large amounts of the newest fighter models till end of the year in no time what causes that you have thousands of 109G6s etc. in stock without the need to even take them back into service.

In addition I strongly recommend to overview/rework the amount of the german gruppen in total. One example are all these schlachtgeschwadergruppen. Even if the may have participated from time to time in some bomber/fightersweep interdictions this happened more accidental and unintentional. At least they should be limited to the 190Fs/Gs and not be able to be fitted with other models. This would also "force" the axis to keep the production of the "unfamous" 190Fs/Gs which are normally immediately dropped by the axis player.

Some more examples are that nearly all ZGs were disbanded in late 1944 as well as some other stop-gap gruppen and staffeln (like the JGr50 etc.) to fitt and man the late war geschwaders like JG 4, 6 or 76. In the OB/OA patches we had them all together and the axis was able to create 1000 fighter interception traps for example in northern germany. 300+ downed allied four-engined within one day was no exception.

Thoughts?

regards (sorry for my bad english :p)

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RE: Some Questions - 6/6/2006 3:05:48 PM

Hard Sarge

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Hi VZ
hmmmm

interesting, but, over all, we do not have enough of the GE production showing or in the game, it was not lack of planes that hurt the LW in the end, but lack of fuel to train and fly the planes, and the lack of trained pilots, we will not get anywhere close to the numbers of planes that were really built during this time of the war

that said, there was a bug in the game, that everything needed to build a plane for reseach, was not being "used up", so it was used for reseach and then replaced in the stock pile (I am not sure if we have knocked that one out yet or not, but we are working on it)

for the SG, SKG units, my biggest concern is the player/AI pulling the Jabos out and replaceing them with planes they should not be using (I have a idea to stop this, but that has to wait on Programming time, to get it in)

but over all, these units shoud be nothing more then a stop gap, and unless they get lucky, will lose more then they ever get (good play, good planning and they could turn into good units, but over all, they are not)

overall, we pretty much keep what we get, so the units that start the game, will still be there at the end, which this works the same for both sides, a number of Allied units should get pulled from the line, sent back to rest and refit and then come back later or be disbanded or sent to another area, which we can not really do

one thing I noticed, over the years, the GE planes seemed to gain Endurance, while the Allied planes lost it, that has been redone, so we should not be seeing planes from Denmark and Holland taking off and chaseing raids into Southern France any more, they should defend there Area, and not chase into areas they do not belong

over all, this is a war of Atritions, you got to knock down the LW, in the air and on the ground, and stop them from being built and the planes allowed to fly, break the LW's back, and you take over the skies, if you just trade losses, you will gt behind the 8ball and stay there, late war, and the better GE planes start to show up, and even worse, once the new rockets come out, it is going to be a mess

I think this verison has a chance to be be, very bloody, and to win, it is going to have to be bloody

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RE: Some Questions - 6/6/2006 9:08:11 PM

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Hi HS,

thx for your replies even they are more sketchily (!)

A thing was took away my fun on BTR was that is was easily feasible to win the 1943 campaign (as axis against allied AI) till spring 1944 without problems. Even if you was limiting yourself...
Simply replace most of the 109Gs with FW-190As, move the half Luftwaffe to nothern germany and slaughter the allied bomberstreams day for day..

Of course a lot peoples played BTR via PBEM but as always games are most times played in singleplayer and the allied AI wasnt able to react decent against human axis tactics and movements.

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RE: Some Questions - 6/6/2006 9:30:17 PM

Hard Sarge

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LOL, sorry VZ

at times that is just the way I write, the more I try to eplain something, the more confused the reader gets :)

Well. I can't say, that by using Tactics like that, that the same will not happen, or at least not happen as bad

But I hope to keep part of that from happening

also, the Heavies have been worked over, the idea of those, if they catch Bombers, they are going to be nasty, if they run into fighters, they are going to be dead

we have also tried to get the AI, to not be born with such a death wish, but only time will tell how well we did on that

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RE: Some Questions - 6/6/2006 9:38:14 PM

Rebel Yell

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

we have also tried to get the AI, to not be born with such a death wish, but only time will tell how well we did on that

Hopefully, we will find that you did.....well.

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 4:15:28 AM

Hard Sarge

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Well, we were able to kill off some of the bugs, that helped make it "dumb" and have tried to work on how it "thinks" but...

now, a player, will always be able to react better then the AI will, but...

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 5:19:19 AM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
now, a player, will always be able to react better then the AI will, but...

no doubt. But it will help for a historical feeling if we could get rid of those hordes of produced axis planes. As I mentioned in my initial post the game doesnt cover the losses from the eastern front while the FULL production capacity of the german aircraft industry is implemented. All those planes are avaiable for the western front what is one part what creates oddities.

< Message edited by VZ -- 6/7/2006 5:20:31 AM >

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 3:12:45 PM

Hard Sarge

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Hmmm
overall, I think I got to disagree, we are not giving you all of the production that the Axis could of had or did have, we are giving you what was being made for the West

there were still bombers being made, there ground attack planes being made, plane in use, there were still biplanes being used in the combat zones (they had a real fancy name for these units)

and also, it gets down to play style, which I may not be the one who should talk, but most of my games, the Axis was running out of planes

Big week in the game as it was in Real Life is going to be very importent, you have to go after the Axis and the LW, you have to break them in the air and on the ground and then were they are built

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 3:35:08 PM

harley

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what HS said * 2

In theory we have all of the factories, but we don't have them producing at their full rates...

During the course of the 700 turn game the axis could turn out 70,000 aircraft, if they had 0 loss of production. My limited understanding is that 1944 was still a golden year for production for Germany... Werner could probably fill us in on that point...

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 3:38:35 PM

Hard Sarge

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in 44/45, Germany was able to build/rebuild, more planes then they could ever fly

the pilots, the training and the lack of fuel (the 3 are interlated) is what broke them, it was never a lack of planes

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 4:27:50 PM

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a lot stuff to keep in mind here. while it is fact that the germans produced more planes than they could ever use thats not the point here. for example my point with the eastern front still remaints unanswered. you can focus the whole production (which was with JJs OB/OA patches completely included more or less).

and I herebly doubt that the axis could run out of planes. even not against a human allied player its hard to run out of planes (as long as the axis player isnt a total noob). in my games against "veteran" allied players via PBEM this never happened to me.

and since the allied AI is unable to keep the axis oil production down you wont face such problems here. only if you play the 44� campaign you will get oil shortages, but only after spring of 1945 and if so its anyway almost over for you though.

a thingy what also could be reworked to prevent odities is to enlarge the timeframe axis gruppen receive new fighter after you change their aircrafts. in BTR it takes 2-5 days till gruppen are completely fitted with other planes. in the real such a progress took weeks to months especially in late war.

the game was a cakewalk as axis against the AI and the 43�campaign always over after 6 months. I wouldnt buy a reworked game if it will be still that boring. playing axis is great but on god mode its not. a bit challenge is needed.

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 4:40:32 PM

Hard Sarge

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you got to remember, when the game first came out, the complaints were that the Axis could not win the game, the first set of patches and then the OOB's made for it were to rebalance the game so the GE could stand a chance

one thing that happened was the Uber 410, this thing could outdogfight a P-51, the 410 now, may bounce a cripple fighter, or a lost fighter and win, but it is not going to win too many fights with fighters anymore

Victory Screens

lets see if that works

ahh crud, nope no work

go back a few pages here, look for a post called Victory Screens, follow it down till it you get to the BTR screen

the Allies are stronger, now don't know if they strong enough to take out a good GE player, but they are stronger

< Message edited by Hard Sarge -- 6/7/2006 4:46:52 PM >

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 5:19:49 PM

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I see your point. And I have to say that its not my wish to have BTR 100% historical with all the horrible outcomes what happened to the germans due to years of foul management in the LW. If the LW would have focus themselve to the "Reichsverteidigung" earlier and listened to guys like Galland the outcome would have been another one.

Wasnt the BTR editor from you HS? Cant remeber exactly. At least I used it to get rid of some houndred fighters each months (cutted from the pool) to simulate the east front requirements ;)

- Maybe you could chance the victory levels as well? A experienced axis dude supremo was always able to end the game around two months pre D-Day.

- Increase the time for gruppen to chance aircraft.

- Fix SGs/SKGs to 190Fs/Gs.

- Have several LW units disbanded later in then game (serious needed).

- Fixed production for some sites (like klemm. should not be able to produce regular stuff)

- Fix of the "freeze allied fightersweeps with a german rotte bug". would result in more axis losses if the allied fightersweeps wouldnt freeze on its way to interdict a german AF (but get rid of all those KIA axis pilots on ground. normally they werent playing soccer while beeing strafed by allied air)

- decrease the amount of flaks produced or somewhat. those 1000 flak traps (the wehrmacht units in italy for example) were ridiculous.

And please take a look into the 44 campaign. It was a forgotten jewel. You know what I mean :)

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 5:29:17 PM

Speedysteve

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Hi VZ,

Welcome.

Some thoughts my end:

As has been alluded in 44 the Axis produced shed loads more planes and AFV's than in previous years. Had the war prolonged into 46-47 it is estimated production would have further increased. Planes were never the problem. Firstly, it was pilots and then from 44 fuel to fly the blighters.

One thing that the guys have mentioned VZ - we don't have full Axis production. Sure the Axis player can produce a lot of planes, as they could historically, but the production in game IS factored to take account of other requirements - Eastern Front, Bombers etc.

There is no doubt in my mind (as HS says) the game is easier to be won as the Axis at the moment - in the last iteration.

Regards,

Steven

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 5:30:49 PM

Speedysteve

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Hi VZ,

Sorry I was posting my last message as you typed yours.

Before he gets tetchy (

) - the BTR editor was put together by Harley

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 5:54:53 PM

harley

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quote:

ORIGINAL: VZ
- Fix of the "freeze allied fightersweeps with a german rotte bug". would result in more axis losses if the allied fightersweeps wouldnt freeze on its way to interdict a german AF (but get rid of all those KIA axis pilots on ground. normally they werent playing soccer while beeing strafed by allied air)

fixed already. Both the "Freeze Ray" and "SAS" bugs are gone. I think I nailed them in the first week or two of the update...

Read up on HARD Sarge's updates in this forum - we really have done a lot to improve this game. There's some really exciting features been added, as well as some long standing bugs been fixed. Did someone say "Dover"?

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 6:00:35 PM

Hard Sarge

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Before he gets tetchy () - the BTR editor was put together by Harley

LOL, and people complain about how I spell

roger, the lastest and greatest Editor was the first of Harley's masterpeices

I only helped test it and ask for things to be added to it each time he got it done

good points, but lets see

Maybe you could chance the victory levels as well? A experienced axis dude supremo was always able to end the game around two months pre D-Day.

? I think you mean the sudden death score, we have been able to get the AI to play into the middle of 45, but have really seen how well a Human would do, but I think we can do something to stop the sudden death rule

- Increase the time for gruppen to chance aircraft.

we have Maintince time settings, not sure if they will make the delay that much longer, but it does seem to take more time to repair planes now

- Fix SGs/SKGs to 190Fs/Gs.

I got plans for this, now the hassle is to get the Programmers to think along the same lines as I do

- Have several LW units disbanded later in then game (serious needed).

that is a HARD one, been trying to make sure that the in game units that change to other units, that the other units do not come in, but....

- Fixed production for some sites (like klemm. should not be able to produce regular stuff)

not sure I follow, what did or should Klemm make ? and if there are others, what did they make and which ones ?

- Fix of the "freeze allied fightersweeps with a german rotte bug". would result in more axis losses if the allied fightersweeps wouldnt freeze on its way to interdict a german AF (but get rid of all those KIA axis pilots on ground. normally they werent playing soccer while beeing strafed by allied air)

Freeze ray bug has been melted, Stafen kills has been reworked, one hassle is there are at times, planes on the field ready to take off, those should have pilots in them, but over all, pilots should, be seen as not being in the plane at all times, so I believe both of these have been taken care of

- decrease the amount of flaks produced or somewhat. those 1000 flak traps (the wehrmacht units in italy for example) were ridiculous.

this is a can of worms, if possible, I believe the Inf type targets should be blocked from getting Heavy Anti Air Arty (most times a unit was static, there Heavy stuff was removed and placed in more importent areas, if we could, I really would like a code rewrite, that Troops, only use there Flak, if they are being attacked, fly overs are not fired on, Troops did not fire at every and any thing flying, they didn't want to be seen, got some tricks and ideas, but have to see how they work, before comitting to them

And please take a look into the 44 campaign. It was a forgotten jewel. You know what I mean :)

Roger, most of the work done, was done to the 43 Campaign in the past, so anything done to that, did not effect the 44 ones, but the map and damage did
we think, we can make some changes,fixes, so the Data base from 43 will be used, we need to get to the HARD coded parts, and make changes there, but we think we can do it

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 6:07:57 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

Before he gets tetchy ()�- the BTR editor was put together by Harley

ah yes it was harleys *hides behind a koala bear*

back to the production numbers :p

If everyone replied here is sure that the axis production with the OB/OA patches is correct AND covering the planes which were delivered to the eastern front etc, we need to find out were the problem is!!
You are easiliy able to produce so many planes within a few months that you can withdraw those "shoddy" bf 109G6s thousandfold EVEN if you stop 30 percent of your aircraft factories to "researchproduce" those 190Ds, 109Ks and 262 etc.etc.

Anyway. I think Ill give it up here. The same discussion we had in JSs forum with no result some years ago.

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 6:09:34 PM

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ah! HS posted while I was writing. will have a read now.

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 6:10:17 PM

Speedysteve

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Hi VZ,

With NDA stuff not sure on what I can/can't say but you will find production of Axis stuff probably a bit different this time around

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 6:34:11 PM

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ok here we go

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

Maybe you could chance the victory levels as well? A experienced axis dude supremo was always able to end the game around two months pre D-Day.

? I think you mean the sudden death score, we have been able to get the AI to play into the middle of 45, but have really seen how well a Human would do, but I think we can do something to stop the sudden death rule

my goal is to have a longer and challenging game in the 43 campaign as axis. My idea was to change the formula how a axis victory is calculated, but I would prefer to have the fixes somewhere else I guess.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

- Increase the time for gruppen to chance aircraft.

we have Maintince time settings, not sure if they will make the delay that much longer, but it does seem to take more time to repair planes now

Especially if you are deep in france or italy it should take longer.
And a good point with the repairing issue here--> IT WAS easier to replace the aircrafts with another types instead to wait until the damaged aircrafts were repaired. Very gamey I agree but well...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

- Fix SGs/SKGs to 190Fs/Gs.

I got plans for this, now the hassle is to get the Programmers to think along the same lines as I do

Would be awesome. Keep it up.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

- Have several LW units disbanded later in then game (serious needed).

that is a HARD one, been trying to make sure that the in game units that change to other units, that the other units do not come in, but....

I agree. It wont be easy to fix. But from my point of view thats one of the major issues what should be fixed/implemented. The easiest solution would be if you simply get rid of those units once the other arrives in the scenerie. Would need some research on the dates as well.
But frankly this affects only the late time gameplay and normally the game is over in a 43 campaign before those changes would occur.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

- Fixed production for some sites (like klemm. should not be able to produce regular stuff)

not sure I follow, what did or should Klemm make ? and if there are others, what did they make and which ones ?

klemm was only a example. I think they were bussy and stuck with those rocketplane attempts (me 163 etc). doubt klemm started serial production of other planes or even was able to. not sure here tho..

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

- Fix of the "freeze allied fightersweeps with a german rotte bug". would result in more axis losses if the allied fightersweeps wouldnt freeze on its way to interdict a german AF (but get rid of all those KIA axis pilots on ground. normally they werent playing soccer while beeing strafed by allied air)

Freeze ray bug has been melted, Stafen kills has been reworked, one hassle is there are at times, planes on the field ready to take off, those should have pilots in them, but over all, pilots should, be seen as not being in the plane at all times, so I believe both of these have been taken care of

rgr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

- decrease the amount of flaks produced or somewhat. those 1000 flak traps (the wehrmacht units in italy for example) were ridiculous.

this is a can of worms, if possible, I believe the Inf type targets should be blocked from getting Heavy Anti Air Arty (most times a unit was static, there Heavy stuff was removed and placed in more importent areas, if we could, I really would like a code rewrite, that Troops, only use there Flak, if they are being attacked, fly overs are not fired on, Troops did not fire at every and any thing flying, they didn't want to be seen, got some tricks and ideas, but have to see how they work, before comitting to them

not only the fly over losses were high. Any allied jabo unit was doing a kamikaze operation attacking those ground units.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge
And please take a look into the 44 campaign. It was a forgotten jewel. You know what I mean :)

Roger, most of the work done, was done to the 43 Campaign in the past, so anything done to that, did not effect the 44 ones, but the map and damage did
we think, we can make some changes,fixes, so the Data base from 43 will be used, we need to get to the HARD coded parts, and make changes there, but we think we can do it

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 7:07:57 PM

Hard Sarge

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thats was I feared. While the only chance to have a decent entertaining and challenging gameplay as experienced axis (against AI) is the 44 campaign you had to bother with some "bugs" which happened only in the 44 campaign and the 44 campaign did not have all the goodies :(

?

I was not much into the 44 campaign, off hand do you remember any bugs that were only from 44 ?

I know we hunted down and nailed a number of bugs with the transfer of IXth and 2nd tac over to france

hmmm, some of the bugs for 44, may be part of the data base, there are a lot of linking issuses with in the DB, if each is not linked right, that unit does not work as it was planned, knock on wood, but I got a lot of those fixed with the 43, if it is a linking issue, it should be taken care of

????

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 7:21:32 PM

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For example the TA-152 "non producing bug". It wasnt in the 43 or fixed by JS later but still remained in the 44 campaign. Or the "Italy oil bug" was fixed for 1943 but not 1944.
And all the goodies from later patches including JSs OB/OA did not affect the 44 camp..

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Post #: 23

RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 7:41:26 PM

Hard Sarge

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okay
for the OOBs I know why they didn't effect the 44
, it is a different DB, but the game uses the same map, so map changes will take effect, but other Data base changes will not

the non buildable planes that was a slot issue, any plane, that can be produced, will be produceable

(now, that is not saying you have 10 factory slots building this plane, that you are going to get 10 a turn, but you will be able to build it)

not sure I follow on the IT oil ?

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RE: Some Questions - 6/7/2006 8:01:51 PM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

not sure I follow on the IT oil ?

AFs in Italy with german aircrafts did not receive oil. It was fixed by JS later on, but it remained in the 44 campaign.

But if the remake dont touch the 44 campaign (if I understand u correctly.. besides the map as mentioned by you) no one need to bother since no one would play the 44 campaign anyway

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RE: Some Questions - 6/8/2006 1:36:14 AM

Denniss

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@HS: Good idea with troops and FlaK. They should only have light flaK and maybe some standard 88mm guns, no 88mm FlaK 41/105mm/128mm and no balloons. It may also bee good to have their heavies not fire at anything flying overhead (without attacking the troops) but light FlaK should fire (maybe alt cap of 10k if not attacked).

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