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RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/14/2006 7:10:09 PM   
tsimmonds


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From: astride Mason and Dixon's Line
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quote:

but the slaughter was because of MASSIVE numbers of CAP which compensated for the inability for all CAP fighters to be at the point of contact

Excellent point; even at this point in the development of the art of fighter direction, what portion of the IJN losses were inflicted by what fraction of the USN CAP, and what portion of the USN CAP failed to make any contact with IJN aircraft at all?

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Post #: 61
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/14/2006 7:16:20 PM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
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quote:

It looks like he lost a goodly number of fighters (and pilots too?). That could hurt.



Well he definetly lost them unless they can swim back 240 miles... or more

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Brain: The Usual Pinky we will try to take over the World;)

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Post #: 62
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/14/2006 8:40:55 PM   
MarcA


Posts: 1181
Joined: 3/2/2005
From: England
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quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?


Well, i suppose if you were willing to have rules that said one bomb would wipe out an airbase as a single hit could do in a carrier... (i.e. Akagi supposedly destroyed by a single direct hit (according to Shattered Sword))...

Things were VERY concentrated on a carrier, leaving them extraordinarily vulnerable to being knocked out by damage a good sized air base will barely notice.


Several months ago treespider started an excellent thread where he listed many CV, CVL and CVE's destroyed with one hit. For my part I give you CVL Princeton. (Over 200 men died on CL Birmingham when the Pirnccetons bomb store exploded ).

Princeton, in TG 38.3, cruised off Luzon and sent her planes against airfields there to prevent Japanese land based aircraft attacks on Allied ships massed in Leyte Gulf. On the 24th however, enemy planes from Clark and Nichols fields found TG 38.3 and reciprocated. Shortly before 1000, a lone enemy dive bomber came out of the clouds above Princeton. At 1500 feet the pilot released his bomb. It hit between the elevators, crashed through the flight deck and hangar, then exploded. Initial fires soon expanded as further explosions sent black smoke rolling off the flight deck and red flames along the sides from the island to the stern. Covering vessels provided rescue and fire-fighting assistance and shielded the stricken carrier from further attack. At 1524, another, much heavier explosion, possibly the bomb magazine, blew off the carrier's stern and with it the after flight deck. The cruiser Birmingham (CL-62), alongside to fight fires, suffered heavy damage and casualties.

Efforts to save Princeton continued, but at 1604 the fires won. Boats were requested to take off remaining personnel and shortly after 1706, Irwin (DD-794) began to fire torpedoes at the burning hulk.

Quote from Wikpedia

< Message edited by mantill -- 6/14/2006 8:46:11 PM >

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Post #: 63
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/14/2006 8:45:01 PM   
MarcA


Posts: 1181
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From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aletoledo

can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?


On my visit of CV Intrepid one of the old boys who use to serve abaord was manning the captains bridge. I asked him over what area the entire CV task force usually covered. According to this man the entire TF, including 4 CV's were concnetrated within one miles radius .

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Post #: 64
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/14/2006 9:12:21 PM   
RAM

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 5/1/2000
From: Bilbao,Vizcaya,Spain
Status: offline 		one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk...

If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ?

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RAM

"Look at me! look at me!!!

Not like that! NOT LIKE THAT!!!"

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Post #: 65
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/14/2006 9:21:34 PM   
rtrapasso


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RAM

one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk...

If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ?



Always the possibility that the enemy may decide to board a ship, possibly finding something useful (like overlooked orders or coding stuff)...

(in reply to RAM)
Post #: 66
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/14/2006 9:35:21 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		Not to mention it doesn't hurt as much when you scuttle your ships. Just like in WitP.....

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Post #: 67
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/14/2006 9:48:59 PM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12094
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		Never leave anything your enemy might find useful. Just think of all the stuff the British and Americans got off of U-Boats. I don't remember the one the Brits got, but we got the U-505. From what I understand, it was a gold mine (and can now be seen in Chicago).

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 68
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/14/2006 9:55:14 PM   
Ron Saueracker


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From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RAM

one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk...

If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ?


Ever been pissed and agree to just one more drink? Even worse, a shooter!


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Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to RAM)
Post #: 69
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/14/2006 10:33:26 PM   
sprior


Posts: 8596
Joined: 6/18/2002
From: Portsmouth, UK
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


quote:

ORIGINAL: RAM

one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk...

If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ?


Ever been pissed and agree to just one more drink? Even worse, a shooter!



Far too many times...

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Post #: 70
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/14/2006 11:52:13 PM   
aletoledo


Posts: 827
Joined: 2/4/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mantill

quote:

ORIGINAL: aletoledo

can 11 carriers of any size really fit into a 60 mile hex? I know its a stupid question and they physically can, but did they ever operate in such a confined space? why can an airfieled only achieve a level 9 and yet carriers can easily leave that number in the dust?


On my visit of CV Intrepid one of the old boys who use to serve abaord was manning the captains bridge. I asked him over what area the entire CV task force usually covered. According to this man the entire TF, including 4 CV's were concnetrated within one miles radius .


interesting! so I suppose (as everyone has always said) the fault doesn't lie in the number of carriers, but the hugh number of planes.

I suppose as Ron has also pointed out, that if the CAP didn't all get a shot at shooting at every wave and every plane, we might get more realistic results from the large formations.

do people play with a common rule regarding this? I've read (in this thread) two alternate ideas. 1) set a maximum allowed CAP at 40% or 2) not allow escort carriers to operate with fleet carriers.

(in reply to MarcA)
Post #: 71
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/14/2006 11:59:07 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

Posts: 3921
Joined: 5/5/2004
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		To an extent WitP-like cap slaughter didn't occur in '42 because it couldn't. The six-pack was never formed and during the few times that KB was formed and was laying waste to the IO/Australia they weren't subject to much in the way of air attacks. It's difficult to project how effective the cap for either would have been.

Unfortunately, due the lack of cv-cv affairs in '43 it's even harder to gauge the rate at which cap increased its effectiveness.

The above in no way endorses the current a2a/cap fu.

(in reply to sprior)
Post #: 72
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/15/2006 12:04:47 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: anarchyintheuk

To an extent WitP-like cap slaughter didn't occur in '42 because it couldn't. The six-pack was never formed and during the few times that KB was formed and was laying waste to the IO/Australia they weren't subject to much in the way of air attacks. It's difficult to project how effective the cap for either would have been.



Even in the IO Raid - aircraft penetrated the KB CAP and bombed the KB - and weren't detected before the bombs started landing around the carriers! Unfortunately for the Allies, they were Blenheims, not dive bombers, or the war might have had a different course.

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)
Post #: 73
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/15/2006 12:07:32 AM   
RAM

 

Posts: 402
Joined: 5/1/2000
From: Bilbao,Vizcaya,Spain
Status: offline 		if that's the main reason (to avoid the enemy to put hands on valuable things aboard the ship) then why did the Japanese finish off the USS Hornet instead of boarding it?



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RAM

"Look at me! look at me!!!

Not like that! NOT LIKE THAT!!!"

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Post #: 74
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/15/2006 12:08:11 AM   
1275psi

 

Posts: 7979
Joined: 4/17/2005
Status: offline 		Just had a carrier battle against BZpanzer

We play 40% max cap house rule
CVL Zuiho, Shoho and CVE Taiyo on a convoy raid ran into the yorktown and lexington

japan actually had 10% CAP -wanted max chance of the Kates getting through if the "convoy" I had spotted did have a surprise -which it did
41 zeros escorted 12 kates and 4 Jakes against 17 Wildcat CAP - the jakes got a hit, 6 kate dropped torps -but missed
The 40% rule seemed pretty realistic.

His strike had predictable results - all 3 carriers are sunk very quickly.
40% CAP seems a fair house rule to at least allow strikes through.

(in reply to anarchyintheuk)
Post #: 75
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/15/2006 12:14:04 AM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RAM

if that's the main reason (to avoid the enemy to put hands on valuable things aboard the ship) then why did the Japanese finish off the USS Hornet instead of boarding it?



Never heard an explanation, but the USN had just been trying to sink her (Hornet), and i think she was pretty much an inferno when the IJN DDs found her.

(in reply to RAM)
Post #: 76
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/15/2006 3:38:28 AM   
esteban


Posts: 618
Joined: 7/21/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: rtrapasso

quote:

ORIGINAL: RAM

if that's the main reason (to avoid the enemy to put hands on valuable things aboard the ship) then why did the Japanese finish off the USS Hornet instead of boarding it?



Never heard an explanation, but the USN had just been trying to sink her (Hornet), and i think she was pretty much an inferno when the IJN DDs found her.


As I recall, the Hornet's screen fired something like 150 5" shells into her, plus several torpedos, but had to withdraw to avoid being destroyed by the oncoming Japanese.

Also, the Franklin was nearly sunk by one bomb in 1945. I think that the catastrophic fires that she survived were caused by a 250 KG bomb dropped from a Judy.

(in reply to rtrapasso)
Post #: 77
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/15/2006 10:51:32 AM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
Status: offline 		Ok things are winding down, today I finally got a coordinated strike in on his transports (his carriers are near tarawa).



Day Air attack on TF, near Maloelap at 82,81

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 10
B5N Kate x 6
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 11

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 19
F4U-1 Corsair x 11

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M3a Zero: 1 damaged
B5N Kate: 6 damaged
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 3 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 10 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair: 2 destroyed, 4 damaged

Allied Ships
AK John C. Calhoun
AK Joseph Holt, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x B5N Kate launching torpedoes at 200 feet
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day Air attack on TF, near Maloelap at 82,81

Japanese aircraft
A6M3a Zero x 24
B5N Kate x 71
Ki-44-IIb Tojo x 42

Allied aircraft
F4F-3 Wildcat x 9
F4U-1 Corsair x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
B5N Kate: 1 destroyed, 32 damaged
Ki-44-IIb Tojo: 4 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
F4F-3 Wildcat: 7 destroyed
F4U-1 Corsair: 11 destroyed

Allied Ships
AK Mana
AK Andrew D. White, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Manulani, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Case, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
AK San Vincente, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
AK Waipo, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
AK Mormaclark, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Cummings, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
AK Donald McKay
DD Tucker
AK Arthur Riggs, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
MSW Penguin, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
AK Archbishop Lamy
AK Maine

5 ships sank that turn.....

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In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

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Post #: 78
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/15/2006 4:02:54 PM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12094
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		So, who do you consider the winner, tactically and strategically?

< Message edited by BrucePowers -- 6/15/2006 4:03:23 PM >

(in reply to wild_Willie2)
Post #: 79
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/15/2006 4:19:58 PM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		well we just agreed with willie that he will allow me to transport the units that teleported during the landing back... with no opposition any way i achived my objective...

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Pinky: Hey Brain what are we goeing to do this evening?
Brain: The Usual Pinky we will try to take over the World;)

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Post #: 80
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/15/2006 4:22:27 PM   
BrucePowers


Posts: 12094
Joined: 7/3/2004
Status: offline 		Fair is fair

(in reply to Przemcio231)
Post #: 81
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/15/2006 5:05:19 PM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		Yach Playing with Willie is a real pleasure...

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Pinky: Hey Brain what are we goeing to do this evening?
Brain: The Usual Pinky we will try to take over the World;)

(in reply to BrucePowers)
Post #: 82
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/15/2006 5:26:00 PM   
wild_Willie2


Posts: 2934
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Arnhem (holland) yes a bridge to far...
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

Yach Playing with Willie is a real pleasure...



Sure, I am such a "nice" boy . All the girls see me like the big brother they never had (until I drop the pretence and the h*rn* beast in me shows it's ugly, bald and one eyed head......

_____________________________

In vinum illic est sapientia , in matera illic est vires , in aqua illic es bacteria.

In wine there is wisdom, in beer there is strength, in water there are bacteria.

(in reply to Przemcio231)
Post #: 83
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/15/2006 5:37:29 PM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wild_Willie2


quote:

ORIGINAL: Przemcio231

Yach Playing with Willie is a real pleasure...



Sure, I am such a "nice" boy . All the girls see me like the big brother they never had (until I drop the pretence and the h*rn* beast in me shows it's ugly, bald and one eyed head......


Sincerity is everything. Once you can fake that you have it made.


_____________________________

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(in reply to wild_Willie2)
Post #: 84
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/17/2006 5:42:34 AM   
scott64


Posts: 4019
Joined: 9/12/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		Who won? 





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Post #: 85
RE: Big showdown comming. - 6/17/2006 6:18:39 AM   
Nomad


Posts: 5905
Joined: 9/5/2001
From: West Yellowstone, Montana
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker


quote:

ORIGINAL: RAM

one thing I never understood was why to waste torpedos on sinking a burning hulk...

If it's going to founder anyway, what's the reason to throw useful torpedos which can be needed elsewhere ?


Ever been pissed and agree to just one more drink? Even worse, a shooter!



I don't really remember.

_____________________________


(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 86
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