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RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 6/23/2006 3:00:25 AM   
trees trees

 

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From: Manistee, MI
Status: offline 		weather overlays? cool. it would be pretty neat to watch it snowing on the map.

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Post #: 661
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 6/23/2006 3:38:18 AM   
Zorachus99


Posts: 1066
Joined: 9/15/2000
From: Palo Alto, CA
Status: offline 		I AM SOOO HAPPY.

The freakiest and most interesting units are done!

Huzzah for doing all that counter-work! To think I found it tedious clipping the corners of my counters with a nail-clipper.

Good show Mr O'Keets!



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Post #: 662
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 6/23/2006 4:56:36 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees trees

weather overlays? cool. it would be pretty neat to watch it snowing on the map.


I hadn't thought of donig it as an animation - though perhaps - it shouldn't be that difficult - when I run out of things to work on.

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Post #: 663
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 6/23/2006 7:56:43 AM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

Changing the font set is not going to happen either.

But maybe there could be some code that says that the number should be shifted some pixels toward the bottom if it is not a number but an asterisk, so that it looks more centered ?

It's a little harder than that given the 8 levels of zoom. Other things seem more important.

I completely agree

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Post #: 664
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 6/23/2006 2:58:12 PM   
Capitaine

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

It's a little harder than that given the 8 levels of zoom. Other things seem more important.


Actually, I question the overall value of 8 distinct levels of zoom. What about levels 8, 4 or 5, and 1, and then optimize the graphics for those 3 levels?

The problem with the gradual scaling of the art is that the detailed unit depictions rapidly degrade as they get smaller, and ultimately don't look very good at all. Giving users fewer options may be viewed as a negative, but at least the product stands up to scrutiny in all supported situations. In my opinion, of course, and I'm sure this has already been considered.

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Post #: 665
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 6/23/2006 4:16:32 PM   
Anendrue


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

It's a little harder than that given the 8 levels of zoom. Other things seem more important.


Actually, I question the overall value of 8 distinct levels of zoom. What about levels 8, 4 or 5, and 1, and then optimize the graphics for those 3 levels?

The problem with the gradual scaling of the art is that the detailed unit depictions rapidly degrade as they get smaller, and ultimately don't look very good at all. Giving users fewer options may be viewed as a negative, but at least the product stands up to scrutiny in all supported situations. In my opinion, of course, and I'm sure this has already been considered.



I have to agree 3 distict zoom levels is all most people will use. One up close to see the nitty gritty, one to get a regional view (most used probably) and then a strategic feel of the game. This should even shorten the development time needed on this aspect of the game and allow Mr. OKeets talents to be used on other "more important" things as indicated by Mr. OKeets himself.

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Post #: 666
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 6/23/2006 5:06:27 PM   
Froonp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

It's a little harder than that given the 8 levels of zoom. Other things seem more important.


Actually, I question the overall value of 8 distinct levels of zoom. What about levels 8, 4 or 5, and 1, and then optimize the graphics for those 3 levels?

The problem with the gradual scaling of the art is that the detailed unit depictions rapidly degrade as they get smaller, and ultimately don't look very good at all. Giving users fewer options may be viewed as a negative, but at least the product stands up to scrutiny in all supported situations. In my opinion, of course, and I'm sure this has already been considered.

I disagree.
Depending on the size of the monitor and the screen resolution used, people will use close zooms, but different zooms.
I would be disapointed to have only 3 level of zooms.

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Post #: 667
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 6/23/2006 8:11:04 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562
quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
It's a little harder than that given the 8 levels of zoom. Other things seem more important.

Actually, I question the overall value of 8 distinct levels of zoom. What about levels 8, 4 or 5, and 1, and then optimize the graphics for those 3 levels?

The problem with the gradual scaling of the art is that the detailed unit depictions rapidly degrade as they get smaller, and ultimately don't look very good at all. Giving users fewer options may be viewed as a negative, but at least the product stands up to scrutiny in all supported situations. In my opinion, of course, and I'm sure this has already been considered.


I have to agree 3 distict zoom levels is all most people will use. One up close to see the nitty gritty, one to get a regional view (most used probably) and then a strategic feel of the game. This should even shorten the development time needed on this aspect of the game and allow Mr. OKeets talents to be used on other "more important" things as indicated by Mr. OKeets himself.


The programming to make 8 levels of zoom work was all done by Chris Marinacci. I merely inherited it - as functioning code. Since it is already there, and working, I see no reason to trash it. When developing graphics I need to be aware of the effect it has on the graphic elements (as you noted). As to the likelihood you only really need 3 levels, I agree. But which 3? As Patrice mentions immediately above, that will depend on your system, and most importantly on the size and resolution of your monitor.

Actually, the different service branches and theaters of operations tend to push you towards using different scales. Land combat in France can be done with higher zoom, while with land combat in Russia or China, zooming out lets you see the entire area of conflict. Air units can participate in combat over a broader area than land units, especially strategic bombers. And the navy moves over wide expanses of ocean. All of this pushes you to using different levels of zoom.

To accommodate the deterioration due to zoomnig out, I am working on simpler graphics for the units (medium and low resoultion) which are designed specifically to address the problem you mention. They will have no text, only numbers, and include silhouettes instead of detailed 24 bit color bitmaps. I just got them from the artist on Wednesday and I'll be working on adding them to the choices the player has off and on over the next couple of weeks.

As I envision it, the player will be able to control the resolution level of the units the same way he controls the zoom level. I'll make the relationship between unit resolution level and zoom level automatic (a toggle that the player can turn on or off). For example, at high zoom levels, such as 5 through 8, high resolution bitmaps will be used; at medium zoom, such as 3 and 4, medium resolution bitmaps will be used; and at low zoom levels, 1 and 2, low resoultion unit counters willl be shown.

This is still in the design stages, but it mostly involves removing stuff from the counter image and making the font size larger, which is not very demanding from the programming point of view. The end result should be quite nice, removing the need to squint at the screen to understand what is going on, or scroll back and forth to see what all the units are doing/can do. Personally, I liked Chris' 8 levels of zoom the moment I saw it, and that was before I had gotten involved in the programming, so my judgment was purely as a World in Flames' player.

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Post #: 668
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 6/24/2006 3:21:02 AM   
Anendrue


Posts: 817
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks for the explanation. Since the code exists we shall leave it in your most capable hands.

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Post #: 669
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 6/24/2006 1:47:34 PM   
YohanTM2

 

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Status: offline 		24" wide screen monitor here I come!

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RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 7:39:50 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		I have been working on the medium resolution units and here is a series of screen shots showing the different levels of zoom.

Level 8.




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Post #: 671
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 7:42:28 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		The same screen shot at zoom level 7. These are all high resolution unit depictions, obviously.

I tried to include as many different unit types as I could think of.




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Post #: 672
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 7:47:40 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Same screen shot at zoom level 6.

There are 3 different font sizes shown: large for land units, medium for naval, and small for air units. The smaller size fonts are required to fit all the number and other information on the counter. Land units only have 2 of 3 number, so they can use a large font. Air units can have up to 6 numbers plus their graphic image takes up a lot of room.

One of the changes I made today was to increase the font size for the naval units. I was able to do this because I reduced the amount of margin for the circles some of them sit in.




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Post #: 673
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 7:50:20 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Taking it down to zoom level 5.

All the numbers are still clearly legible, though some of the niceties of names and images are beginning to distort heavily.

This is still using high resolution unit depcitions.




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Post #: 674
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 7:52:11 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		And zoom level 4 - where you might want to use medium resolution unit depictions instead of high.




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Post #: 675
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 7:58:17 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		So here's the same screen shot, at zoom level 4, using medium resolution unit depictions.

The text has disappeared and you are now seeing silhouettes instead of 24 bit color images for the plane and ships. The provides room for larger font sizes.

The bombers and ATRs need their silhouettes modified. Right now I am thinking about rotating them 45 degrees or so, so the range number doesn't cover so much of the silhouette.

The bit maps are not anti-aliased, which is why they look so jagged. However, we might be able to improve them somewhat without going to anti-aliasing. I don't want to do that because it would require hundreds of additional bitmaps (one for each country) instead of the 20 or so we are using presently for the medium resolution depictions.




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Post #: 676
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 8:05:28 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		And taking it down to zoom level 3, using medium resolution unit depictions.

Note that the Canadians, New Zealanders, and Aussies have different colored silhouettes from the United Kingdom.

The numbers are easy to read and it shouldn't be hard to learn what the different silhouettes mean. I forgot to include a convoy - rats. It looks a lot like the frogmen, in that there is no silhouette, but simply the text CONV.

I will provide that as an option for all the units - replacing the silhouettes with simple text. For example: BB, CA, CV, CL, CX, FTR, LND, NAV, CAir, etc.

This means you can choose between high, medium with silhouettes, medium with text, and low resolution unit depictions.




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Post #: 677
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 8:08:13 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		So, let's look at zoom level 2, using medium resolution unit depictions.

Not so good. Which means I have to create a low res version: no silhouettes, larger font sizes, text(?!).




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Post #: 678
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 8:11:36 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		Last in the series.

I include this screen shot to show the purpose behind creating medium resolution unit depcitions. Here is how much of the map you can view at zoom level 3 - and still have all the units legible




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Post #: 679
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 9:23:06 AM   
lomyrin


Posts: 3741
Joined: 12/21/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline 		These options for resolution look very good.

Will there be a choice of which resolution to be used at any given zoom level, that will be saved and will automatically be switched to, when the player changes zoom level?

With email play will that mean that each player can have his own saved zoom/resolution setup that is automatic unless manually overridden?

Lars 

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Post #: 680
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 9:56:40 AM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: lomyrin
These options for resolution look very good.

Will there be a choice of which resolution to be used at any given zoom level, that will be saved and will automatically be switched to, when the player changes zoom level?

With email play will that mean that each player can have his own saved zoom/resolution setup that is automatic unless manually overridden?

Lars 


Yes. My intent is to let the player set a default for which unit resoultion is used with which zoom level - but he will be able to override the default whenever he pleases. I will probably store his personal choice for the default as part of a screen layout file, but I want to see how the beta testers feel about the screen layouts first. Since screen layouts are just out of the newborn stage, they might need other adjustments.

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Post #: 681
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 11:04:29 AM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
Status: offline 		I like the medium resolution ones. A few small comments:
a) I notice on zoom level three, that the engineer E is not showing, the Marine and GAR have the vertical stripe missing. Maybe thoose lines could be made thicker in the medium resolution to enable the scaling better

b) I think that the plane and ship graphic could be made a little bit smaller and by that not cover so much of the numbers.

c) I dont think it is neessary to have the plane and ship graphics in a different colour for canadian & south african units.

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Post #: 682
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 11:48:20 AM   
Froonp


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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

So, let's look at zoom level 2, using medium resolution unit depictions.
Not so good. Which means I have to create a low res version: no silhouettes, larger font sizes, text(?!).

I think this one is OK.
When you're at level 2, you're not looking at individual counters, so it's not a problem if you don't see them really well.

A few comments :

- About the colors of the generic silhouettes, we are used to have the CVs being white as well as the ATRs and the rest being black. The only red silhouettes we have are those printed on black background.

- Also, on the low res counters, the ATR's range should stay white.

- Maybe the silhouettes should be made a little smaller as c92nichj said.

- I also like it that you will propose to replace the silhouette by the text (BB, CA, etc...)

Personaly, I like high res counters up to level 4, and generic ones from level 3.

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Post #: 683
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 4:06:14 PM   
Neilster


Posts: 2890
Joined: 10/27/2003
From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
Status: offline 		Shouldn't the FROG Minisub be French? Ho Ho Ho. My sides!

Seriously though, looking good. Are you going to leave the CR.42bis as is, given that the black sections of it's paintjob get lost in the background? My suggestion was for a pale grey line to "connect" the aircraft. Perhaps you tried it and it looked naff?

Cheers, Neilster

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Post #: 684
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 4:53:16 PM   
Peter Stauffenberg


Posts: 403
Joined: 2/24/2006
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline 		Very nice looking images indeed. I agree with the comments made so far.
Make the silhouettes smaller so they're not so much covered by the numbers.
Consider using the text BB, CV, DD, LND, FTR etc. for the lowest resolutions instead
of silhouettes.

I think the silhouettes for the tactical and strategical bombers maybe could be altered
a little. Now they look like a reverse version of the ATR units. The wings in the silhouettes seem like delta wings and don't give the image of large 4 engine strategic bombers.
I attach a silhouette in a game I made for ADC2 a long time ago just to give you
a hint of what I'm taking about. I guess the silhouette I show can be improved a lot,
but I feel this looks more like a strategic bomber than the current silhouette i MWIF.








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< Message edited by Borger Borgersen -- 7/2/2006 4:57:07 PM >

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Post #: 685
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 5:13:11 PM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline 		Good idea from Borger Borgersen :
quote:

I think the silhouettes for the tactical and strategical bombers maybe could be altered
a little. Now they look like a reverse version of the ATR units. The wings in the silhouettes seem like delta wings and don't give the image of large 4 engine strategic bombers.
I attach a silhouette in a game I made for ADC2 a long time ago just to give you
a hint of what I'm taking about. I guess the silhouette I show can be improved a lot,
but I feel this looks more like a strategic bomber than the current silhouette i MWIF.

Also, for the 2BP cost LND bombers, maybe show the silhouette of a Stuka.
Having 3 silhouettes for the land bombers seems right.

Here is how silhouettes looked in WiF 5th Edition. The tactical bomber was a Stuka.




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Post #: 686
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 7:22:19 PM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
Joined: 1/14/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Good idea from Borger Borgersen :
quote:

I think the silhouettes for the tactical and strategical bombers maybe could be altered
a little. Now they look like a reverse version of the ATR units. The wings in the silhouettes seem like delta wings and don't give the image of large 4 engine strategic bombers.
I attach a silhouette in a game I made for ADC2 a long time ago just to give you
a hint of what I'm taking about. I guess the silhouette I show can be improved a lot,
but I feel this looks more like a strategic bomber than the current silhouette i MWIF.

Also, for the 2BP cost LND bombers, maybe show the silhouette of a Stuka.
Having 3 silhouettes for the land bombers seems right.

Here is how silhouettes looked in WiF 5th Edition. The tactical bomber was a Stuka.





I like those pictures(maybe because I played WiF5 for many years) and they would work very well in medium resolution (maybe slightly smaller).

I also like Patrices comment on keeping CV silhouttes white and other ship black.

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Post #: 687
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/2/2006 10:36:43 PM   
Shannon V. OKeets

 

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline 		A few comments on the preceeding posts.

- I did not color the ATRs and CVs white because I was worried about minor countries like Denmark and Yugoslavia. However, I now realize that no minor country has CVs or ATRs, so I'll change the silhouette color to white for those unit types.

- Making the silhouettes smaller seemed right to me as soon as I saw them, but I thought I would give a try at using them in the size Rob sent to me. A 20% reduction should be enough.

- If we have different silhouettes for L2 and L4, what do the L3 unit types use?

- For replacing the silhouettes with text I had stated I would use LND/FTR/NAV/ATR, would you prefer L2, L3, L4, F2, F3, N2, N3, N4, A3, and A4?

- For ASW escorts and ASW carriers I was just going to use ASW and let the numbers communicate whether it was a carrier (square color indicates carrier) or not.

- The problem of black camouflage against a black background only occurs for the 2 Belgian planes so I am going to ignore it.

- I am going to leave the Canadian colors as yellow and so on for the rest of the CW member nations. The example I gave makes them look like they are everywhere but in reality 90+% of the CW bitmapped units belong to the United Kingdom and will be colored black. The color adds a little flavor and some additional information.

- I do not expect to rework these right away. I want Rob and myself to do the color theme et al for the interface next. I also want to work with the interface for naval movement and combat to see if I can jazz that up. With both of those elements of the interface in place, I'll have a better understanding of how the medium resolution units will appear in actual use. You see, I expect the medium resolution to be the workhorse for naval movement and combat becasue you will want to have more of the map visible - which requires zoom level 1, 2, or 3.

- I am not going to do anything on the low resolution units until the medium res are finished. This is the same philosophy I used for the high/medium and I think it worked well (no wasted effort). There almost certainly will be a low res created expressly for zoom level 2. Zoom level 1 is hopeless for communicating much of anything.

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Post #: 688
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/3/2006 5:51:41 AM   
c92nichj


Posts: 440
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quote:


- If we have different silhouettes for L2 and L4, what do the L3 unit types use?

L2 as they are also more focussed on Tactical use than the L4 which are for strategic use


quote:

- For replacing the silhouettes with text I had stated I would use LND/FTR/NAV/ATR, would you prefer L2, L3, L4, F2, F3, N2, N3, N4, A3, and A4?


I prefer LND/FTR/NAV/ATR, but I expect that I will use the bitmaps



quote:

- I am going to leave the Canadian colors as yellow and so on for the rest of the CW member nations. The example I gave makes them look like they are everywhere but in reality 90+% of the CW bitmapped units belong to the United Kingdom and will be colored black. The color adds a little flavor and some additional information.


I agree on flavour but I cannot really see what extra information it provides, the only difference between a canadian and a British Fighter is where it is reinforced


quote:

You see, I expect the medium resolution to be the workhorse for naval movement and combat becasue you will want to have more of the map visible - which requires zoom level 1, 2, or 3.


The flyout unit display feature might be a very good thing to use in the seaareas.


quote:

- I am not going to do anything on the low resolution units until the medium res are finished. This is the same philosophy I used for the high/medium and I think it worked well (no wasted effort). There almost certainly will be a low res created expressly for zoom level 2. Zoom level 1 is hopeless for communicating much of anything.


Not sure you will need to make low resolution file, just work a little bit on the bitmaps for the landunits (making the icons a little bit thicker for scaling well on level 3)


< Message edited by c92nichj -- 7/3/2006 5:52:55 AM >

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Post #: 689
RE: Modding unit bitmaps - 7/3/2006 9:00:57 AM   
Froonp


Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline
quote:

- If we have different silhouettes for L2 and L4, what do the L3 unit types use?

Any famous twin-engined bomber will do.
The most produced US twin-engined bomber is the A-20, so why not a A-20 silhouette.


http://www.aviationtrivia.homestead.com/The_Mosts.html

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< Message edited by Froonp -- 7/3/2006 9:01:42 AM >

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