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How come? - 7/12/2006 11:53:45 AM

wodin

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You decided to go the IGO UGO way instead of WEGO which many people prefer and there is a distinct lack of WEGO games?

Going WEGO alone would improved sales Im sure.

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RE: How come? - 7/12/2006 4:11:38 PM

sol_invictus

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I imagine it is very difficult to program a decent AI for WEGO games, but I am just guessing. It has been done with games like Combat Mission and the Panther games, so I know it is possible. I guess we have to wait until Combined Arms is released. I am confident I will like Battlefront in spite of it not being WEGO though.

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RE: How come? - 7/12/2006 5:24:59 PM

Erik Rutins

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wodin,

WEGO vs. IGOUGO does not actually have a sales correlation. There are a lot of fantastic IGOUGO designs (see Decisive Battles series for one) and many wargamers enjoy that type of system. It's another tool in the game designer's toolkit and each style does have its trade-offs. I think there's a case to be made for IGOUGO particularly at the operational scale.

Regards,

- Erik

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RE: How come? - 7/12/2006 7:07:35 PM

Capitaine

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To me, plotting all units' moves as in the V4V series and other games is boring and tedious. I much prefer an IGO-UGO format because the "realism hit" is minimal and it's much more enjoyable, especially in pbem.

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RE: How come? - 7/13/2006 3:11:38 AM

Deathtreader

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Hi all,

Since I'm not burnproof (

) let me begin by saying I'm a big SSG fan and have every title they have EVER published and will acquire Battlefront II when its released. Having said that -- its interesting to note that whether you're for or against WEGO the vast majority of posters on both sides reference the V4V/WAW titles throughout the Matrix forums (and non-Matrix forums as well) during the discussion. That suggests many purchasers even in a niche market like wargaming. Atomic/Avalon must have done something right.... what was it?? Could it be that many find WEGO a happy medium between RPS (ala COTA?? -- and I also have every title Panther has EVER published) and the traditional IGOUGO model? and at what seems to be the most popular scale -- battalion/regiment operational?? Is it possible to draw any conclusions from these observations??
Gregor?? Eric?? Arjuna?? Ludo??
Just my 2 bits worth.

Keep up the excellent work guys................

Rob.

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RE: How come? - 7/13/2006 9:30:37 PM

Capt Cliff

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Deathtreader, Good discertation! But I think it boils down to IGOUGO is easier to program than the WEGO system. The Atomic Games guy's got it right, but even their AI was weak. Programing the AI in WEGO has got to be tough. As for the plotting being boring, I just don't get it. You have to move the unit anyway in either system but if you need to get to your objective in a hurry, before your opponent in the WEGO system, better use that armored cav unit or that PZ Lehr armored recon unit (the one with the Panther symbol on it

). It's more of a challenge with the WEGO system, it how things really happen on a battlefield. IGOUGO is old technology from the board game era and should be put in a place of honor in the Smithsonian!

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RE: How come? - 7/14/2006 2:45:05 AM

sol_invictus

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Agreed, the sweet thing about WEGO is you are forced to anticipate your opponents move at the same time you are moving. It is much more intense and realistic. A simple movement to contact can become a bloody rout if you are careless.

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RE: How come? - 7/14/2006 2:55:18 AM

JSS

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

Deathtreader, Good discertation! But I think it boils down to IGOUGO is easier to program than the WEGO system. The Atomic Games guy's got it right, but even their AI was weak. Programing the AI in WEGO has got to be tough. As for the plotting being boring, I just don't get it. You have to move the unit anyway in either system but if you need to get to your objective in a hurry, before your opponent in the WEGO system, better use that armored cav unit or that PZ Lehr armored recon unit (the one with the Panther symbol on it ). It's more of a challenge with the WEGO system, it how things really happen on a battlefield. IGOUGO is old technology from the board game era and should be put in a place of honor in the Smithsonian!

Yes, BUT.... WEGO isn't the be all/do all for operational wargames. Sometimes IGOUGO is every bit as good.

I played a good deal of W@W and was fairly good at the game (its my second favorite game behind DB just ahead of CM, HTTR, & TOAW). Great game, good execution.... still some flaws.

1) Utter clickfest trying to get maximum movement (hex by hex by hex). DB handles this much better (i.e. its AI kicks the old V4V/W@W AI's arse in everyway).

2) The 4 hour turns and then WEGO again allowed lots of perfect communication and reactions that the 2006 US Army units would be hard pressed to match. The fatal flaw in WEGO as I see it. Total & complete reaction next turn. IGOUGO handles this every bit as well (better IMHO) for operational games. If you breakthru in IGOUGO and still have movement capability you get a much more historic result (especially with 12 hour & 24 hour+ turns)... breakthru and exploit before a perfectly coordinated reaction.

< Message edited by JSS -- 7/14/2006 2:56:33 AM >

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RE: How come? - 7/14/2006 4:07:46 AM

sol_invictus

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You certainly have a point, the Atomic games weren't perfect and IGOUGO can certainly work well; depending on the game engine. While it is certainly a herculean task to try to realisticly model military combat in a game, I still think that WEGO comes closer than IGOUGO most of the time. It sounds like Battlefront and TOAWIII will be the gold standards in IGOUGO wargames though. I figure when CA comes out, Matrix will have all bases covered.

< Message edited by Arinvald -- 7/14/2006 4:08:58 AM >

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RE: How come? - 7/14/2006 4:36:24 AM

Gregor_SSG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wodin

You decided to go the IGO UGO way instead of WEGO which many people prefer and there is a distinct lack of WEGO games?

Going WEGO alone would improved sales Im sure.

This is a somewhat pointless question. After all, if we'd made an FPS based around a blockbuster movie that would certainly improve sales!

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. We make the games that we want to play and we choose the style to suit us. We've all had too many years in the game industry to be bothered doing anything else.

If enough people like our games and buy them, then the bills get paid. If they don't, then we have to drive taxis or something, I don't know.

Many, some would say most, outrages in game design come about because somebody decided that a particular style was popular and directed a bunch of guys to do such a game for only that reason.

Many, some again would say most, of the best game designs came about because a bunch of guys were allowed to work on a game that they really wanted to make. We can guarantee that we really wanted to make the Battlefront game, and that we personally love playing it. It up to others to decide how good it really is.

Gregor

P.S. People living in Sydney, you do not want Ian Trout driving a taxi. Buying a few extra copies of the game may be a very cheap form of car insurance.

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RE: How come? - 7/14/2006 4:50:34 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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As I am as much a stick in the mud as is possible to be, on the "turn using" definition of a wargamer, it says something, that I personally think WEGO is as good as realism will ever achieve.

Now, whether it is possible and or realistic at the programming level, is not something I can discusss, due to my lack of knowledge of programming.

I could likely design a high grade board game, it's not the same as programming though. Thus, Advanced Third Reich, it could have been me. But I can't think of a single computer game I could likely have done more for than beta test. And then, that's only me saying if it's fun, if it runs etc etc etc. I would not be connected with actually "making" the game.

WEGO to me, is simply the best method to determine if your "military analysis of the situation" was worth squat :) In turn using, or real time, you often have qualities in the game, that are more about using the game, than simulation of command.

If it wasn't for Panther Games, I likely would still have universal, and total disdain for anything not employing turns.

I have the V4Victory games. Chances are my memories of them are clouded from time though. I have not seen them in a long time (thanks to OS issues making them non playable). Would I call them "great" measured against today's wargames, if I could see them running again, hard to say.
I am likely interested enough in them though, that finding Matrix Games was re releasing them playable on a current OS would make me happier than hearing they had revived other titles though.

It was mentioned, that there are not many WEGO designs out there. I can only conclude it is harder to make them, and not that it is harder to sell them to us wargamers.

Les the turn using fanatic, wishes Steel Panthers was WEGO for instance :)

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RE: How come? - 7/14/2006 4:55:05 AM

Gregor_SSG

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

Deathtreader, Good discertation! But I think it boils down to IGOUGO is easier to program than the WEGO system. The Atomic Games guy's got it right, but even their AI was weak. Programing the AI in WEGO has got to be tough. As for the plotting being boring, I just don't get it. You have to move the unit anyway in either system but if you need to get to your objective in a hurry, before your opponent in the WEGO system, better use that armored cav unit or that PZ Lehr armored recon unit (the one with the Panther symbol on it ). It's more of a challenge with the WEGO system, it how things really happen on a battlefield. IGOUGO is old technology from the board game era and should be put in a place of honor in the Smithsonian!

You realise of course that according to the rest of the games industry historical wargames are already dead, and have been since SSI stopped being able to command reasonable retail presence with them. In a related story, we're not going to the Smithsonion. Doom, Diablo, Half Life and the Sims are going, and if the museum does its job properly there should be a World of Warcraft server kept running in perpetuity, but we're not going.

We'll be on shelf somewhere in a storage facility, rating honourable mentions in some dissertaions and multi-volume histories. So lets not bother arguing over who deserves top shelf in the mausoleum, let's just encourage everybody to enjoy any possible style of wargame, just so we've still got them.

Gregor

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RE: How come? - 7/14/2006 6:39:26 AM

j campbell

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gregor,

well stated. I am still thankfull everyday that some company that has the skills to produce what i consider top notch board game wargaming on a computer platform. we are certainly the last of a dying breed.

john

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RE: How come? - 7/14/2006 6:56:23 AM

benpark

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quote:

We'll be on shelf somewhere in a storage facility, rating honourable mentions in some dissertaions and multi-volume histories.

And on my HD for perpetuity.

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RE: How come? - 7/14/2006 8:06:11 AM

Fred98

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Les has changed a lot over the years !

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RE: How come? - 7/14/2006 9:29:34 AM

RedMike

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RE: How come? - 7/28/2006 4:39:50 AM

Der Oberst

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Gregor_SSG

This is a somewhat pointless question. After all, if we'd made an FPS based around a blockbuster movie that would certainly improve sales!

If enough people like our games and buy them, then the bills get paid. If they don't, then we have to drive taxis or something, I don't know.

P.S. People living in Sydney, you do not want Ian Trout driving a taxi. Buying a few extra copies of the game may be a very cheap form of car insurance.

So Gregor what you're REALLY saying is if you'd made an FPS around a blockbuster movie Ian wouldn't have to drive a taxi and the population of Sydney would be safer.....

Hmmm.... I think I'd have made the FPS ....

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RE: How come? - 7/28/2006 9:47:59 AM

TheHellPatrol