RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

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RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/8/2006 11:34:22 PM

Toed

Posts: 55
Joined: 8/5/2006
From: Sweden
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The Stockholm area looks really nice now. Good work and thanks for beeing patient with us crazy Sweeds.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 181

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:02:30 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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Patrice,

I've decided on most of the suggested changes, going with the majority of forum members who were interested/knowledgeable enough to vote in all cases.

I think Gothenburg is slightly better than G�teborg. So I have decided on the former for the choice of names.

The only questionable issues remaining (to my eye) are:

Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Bod� (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Now that's a much easier list to deal with.

If there is more discussion on these 4, let's hear it. I'll make some sort of a decision in the next 2 days on these too. Of course, my preference would be for the group to reach near-unanimous agreement, so I don't have to decide.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 182

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:25:43 AM

Ullern

Posts: 1837
Joined: 5/28/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Another thing :
Why is the hex NW of Oslo forest on your view ?
Presently it is mountain, on WiF FE it is mountain, on MWiF it is mountain, there were no proposal yet to make it Forest.

A valid question.

After some digging in earlier files I found that I recived the map that way from Steve at 25 of july. I didn't notice the deviation and didn't change it.

It's veird how some suggestions comes to life _ but I think Borger is right when he says that the terrain along the railway to H�nefoss is forest, also most directly NW of Oslo is that, though some few places can probly be considered mountains. After som map checking I belive that the current mapping would place the H�nefoss in the midle of the hex 37,37. It's a really long time since I was up that road. But west of H�nefoss it's mountains isn't it? That would make about half the hex mountains. In which case I think we should keep it mountain. But I am not sure I am right about the terrain... Borger?

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 183

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:31:03 AM

Incy

Posts: 336
Joined: 10/25/2003
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Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland

Pass

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Yes (movement east<->west in this part of norway is more or less a non-starter in military terms. Femunden looks nice and slightly hinders east-west movment/combat, which is good)

Bod� (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Yes. It's a big port, and today also has a really big airfield, much of the norwegian airforce is based there. The cold war U2 flights were typically based form Bod�!! The airport wasn't built before 1951, but the terrain certainly facilitates for aircraft, which is more than can be said for many parts of Norway. Plus I did my military service at the main north norwegian HQ near Bod�, so how can I vote no?? Bod� was not directly invaded in the initial german invasion, but was extensively bombed during the campaign, 400 of 600 downtown buildings were destroyed. Bod� is the second largest population centre in northern Norway, after Troms� (it stillwasn't a huge place, 40K people today, 25K people in 68).

Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Yes. Let's face it, norwegian terrain is hell, unless you like skiing.

Now that's a much easier list to deal with.

If there is more discussion on these 4, let's hear it. I'll make some sort of a decision in the next 2 days on these too. Of course, my preference would be for the group to reach near-unanimous agreement, so I don't have to decide.

[/quote]

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 184

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:35:23 AM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I've decided on most of the suggested changes, going with the majority of forum members who were interested/knowledgeable enough to vote in all cases.

So here iw what it looks for now.
Nils, I put Forest in the hex NW of Oslo on this map

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 185

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:37:35 AM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Yes (movement east<->west in this part of norway is more or less a non-starter in military terms. Femunden looks nice and slightly hinders east-west movment/combat, which is good)

Incy, the question was wether we should remove the Femunden Lake. You answered YES, but reading further your answer, I guess you meant YES to add it, didn't you ?

(in reply to Incy)

Post #: 186

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:41:21 AM

Incy

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quote:

I agree with you on this. I live in Oslo so I should know. The hex 1xNW of Oslo should be forest instead of mountain. This hex contains areas like Hadeland and Toten and contains towns like H�nefoss, Jevnaker and Gj�vik. This is mostly forest terrain with also some nice farmlands. The forest terrain is like hills, but does not have the altitude to be called mountain. So is there any reason why this hex is drawn as a mountain hex and not a forest hex as Ullern suggests?

Nilsern and I also live in Oslo, in fact we're starting our next campaign this thursday. This time, the combined frensh-soviet forces will surly crush the nazis before they get to far!!! Send us a line if you want to come along and say hi (we play at slependen but transport can be arranged).

For the maps, I still miss straits accross sognefjord and nordfjord(2 longfjords north of Bergen). Nobody in thir right mind would try to walk around the shore of these fjord, the correct way is across (wich is often a few hundred meters rather than a few hundred kilometers!!)

< Message edited by Incy -- 8/9/2006 1:42:29 AM >

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)

Post #: 187

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:43:39 AM

Incy

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Joined: 10/25/2003
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err, correct...

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Yes (movement east<->west in this part of norway is more or less a non-starter in military terms. Femunden looks nice and slightly hinders east-west movment/combat, which is good)

Incy, the question was wether we should remove the Femunden Lake. You answered YES, but reading further your answer, I guess you meant YES to add it, didn't you ?

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 188

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:45:00 AM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

Mountain hex (NW Oslo) (37,37) (ullern) : Change to Forest
2 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.

quote:

That would make about half the hex mountains. In which case I think we should keep it mountain. But I am not sure I am right about the terrain... Borger?

Humm, I made it forest in the map I just posted, assuming Steve decision was to say YES to it even if it only had 2 voters. Are you now telling me to make it back to Mountain ? (which is easy as it is still in the layer underside).

(in reply to Ullern)

Post #: 189

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:45:28 AM

Ullern

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

I quite like the new map but have two comments:
a) Lake Mj�sa(368 km2) looks to be bigger than Hj�lmaren (484 km2)
b The bit of ocean north of stockholm looks strange, I suggest to remove it.

I agree there is still something there. I earlier belived Patrice would make M�laren two lake hexes instead of one, but he didn't change the grapichs. It might be that he just didn't have time.

Right now I read the map this way: We have two big lakes, Hj�lmaren and M�laren each just one hex-side big, and then a two hex-side gap between them. And it's that last thing that I think is the error here. There is no two hex side gap between Hj�lmaren and M�laren, the gap is quite short.

Both lakes actually deserves to cover two hex sides, but due to the limited number of hex sides that is impossible. We need one hex side to function as the gap.

The neatest solution may actually be to leave grapichs for M�laren as it is, and expand Hj�lmaren east so that it covers two hex sides. In that case it would be more obvious that the M�laren graphics does not imply that the hexside NW of (39,42) is blocked. While both lakes look more like their real sizes. And hence happy endings?

< Message edited by ullern -- 8/9/2006 1:47:45 AM >

(in reply to c92nichj)

Post #: 190

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:47:24 AM

Incy

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While we're at it, I think there should be manymore mountain passes.
Even today, there's not really a good road between Bergn and Oslo, even though there's now plenty of tunnels up to 15 kilometers longonthis stretch. Many of the passes are often closed in winter

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I've decided on most of the suggested changes, going with the majority of forum members who were interested/knowledgeable enough to vote in all cases.

So here iw what it looks for now.
Nils, I put Forest in the hex NW of Oslo on this map .

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 191

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:54:57 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Mountain hex (NW Oslo) (37,37) (ullern) : Change to Forest
2 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.

quote:

That would make about half the hex mountains. In which case I think we should keep it mountain. But I am not sure I am right about the terrain... Borger?

Humm, I made it forest in the map I just posted, assuming Steve decision was to say YES to it even if it only had 2 voters. Are you now telling me to make it back to Mountain ? (which is easy as it is still in the layer underside).

I have as wallpaper for my computer desktop the European map taken 3 or 4 months ago. At that point in time the hex NW of Oslo was Forest. I do not know for certain how it got changed to mountain, but I suspect it was Claes working from the material we had provided him (probably Nils' original set of modifications). Let's leave it as forest unless there is some strong reason to change it to mountain.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 192

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:59:37 AM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
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From: Marseilles, France
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quote:

While we're at it, I think there should be manymore mountain passes.
Even today, there's not really a good road between Bergn and Oslo, even though there's now plenty of tunnels up to 15 kilometers longonthis stretch. Many of the passes are often closed in winter

What are you calling "mountain passes" ?
Are you talking of Alpine hexsides ?

(in reply to Incy)

Post #: 193

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 2:05:51 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
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From: Honolulu, Hawaii
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ullern

quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj
I quite like the new map but have two comments:
a) Lake Mj�sa(368 km2) looks to be bigger than Hj�lmaren (484 km2)
b The bit of ocean north of stockholm looks strange, I suggest to remove it.

I agree there is still something there. I earlier belived Patrice would make M�laren two lake hexes instead of one, but he didn't change the grapichs. It might be that he just didn't have time.

Right now I read the map this way: We have two big lakes, Hj�lmaren and M�laren each just one hex-side big, and then a two hex-side gap between them. And it's that last thing that I think is the error here. There is no two hex side gap between Hj�lmaren and M�laren, the gap is quite short.

Both lakes actually deserves to cover two hex sides, but due to the limited number of hex sides that is impossible. We need one hex side to function as the gap.

The neatest solution may actually be to leave grapichs for M�laren as it is, and expand Hj�lmaren east so that it covers two hex sides. In that case it would be more obvious that the M�laren graphics does not imply that the hexside NW of (39,42) is blocked. While both lakes look more like their real sizes. And hence happy endings?

No.

The difficulty you see here is due mostly to how the hexgrid is imposed on the terrain. This is a constant problem in developing game maps using a hex grid and has no easy solution. Some river/lakes (country boundaries too!) align nicely with the grid and present no problem. Others are out of alignment and cross in the middle of a hex instead of running down a hexside. That's just the way things work out.

Instead of counting hexsides, if you look at hexes, I think you'll find the map is reasonable. Fighting your way from Oslo to Stockholm means not having to cross water; while from Gothenburg to Stockholm, the attackers have to work their way around the lakes.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Ullern)

Post #: 194

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 2:14:00 AM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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About M�laren & Hj�lmaren position & size :

quote:

The neatest solution may actually be to leave grapichs for M�laren as it is, and expand Hj�lmaren east so that it covers two hex sides. In that case it would be more obvious that the M�laren graphics does not imply that the hexside NW of (39,42) is blocked. While both lakes look more like their real sizes. And hence happy endings?

I've got another idea.
Hj�lmaren : have it block the SW hexside of 38,42 (this is the hex west of Stockholm), and draw it a little longer to the west (up to half the hexside), but not blocking.
M�laren : Leave it as it is for the blocking hexsides, but draw it slightly shorter (so that it reaches about 2/3rds inside the hex).

I say this because I also noticed that the distance beween the western tip of the Hj�lmaren is about 60-65 km from the northern tip of the V�ttern. Those 60-65 km deserve to be 2 hexsides too, and there is only 1 hexside between the lakes now. My solution would have 2 hexsides between them.

There are a lot of lakes in this crowded place, from a WiF & hexes point of view, and I think we should leave a bit more room between the 3 lakes for units to move and attack.

I'll draw it tomorrow to show you (unless there are loads of messages telling me this is nonsense

).
Good night !

(in reply to Ullern)

Post #: 195

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 2:52:46 AM

Ullern

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I agree with Incy on the straits across Sognefjord and Nordfjord. But I think that one for each is adequate.

Suggestion:
For Nordfjord I am quite sure it should be (34,35) to (33,34) (Nordfjordeid)
For Sognefjorden I think the Leikanger crossing is the more propper one. That would be from hex (36,35) and _ hm _ straight north ... well hex (35,35).

About Incy's suggestion for more alpine hexes I agree that in theory there should be, but there simply ain't room for any more. There are two seperate mountain passes possible to use to go to Bergen. The southern one (by Geilo) is aproximately the one that follows the railroad, that road goes down to Hardangerfjorden. Then there is another one north of that that goes down to Sognefjorden. These two passes can be accesed from the east by multiple ways, and I belive the passes are in two different hexes. The most dificult part of going to Bergen I think was not the mountain pases but to get into hex (36,35). And that hex have just one hexside east where the railroad goes. That hexside could have been alpine, if it had not been for the fact that the railroad somehow make it through there anyway and WIF doesn't allow railroad and alpine across the same hex side.

Then there is a third pass that takes you to Haugesund.

I think it's fair that all these three passes are represented (and it was the way the map used to be in WIF FE board version anyway). So then I find litle place for more alpine hexes.

Well there is one place I can think of. That is in the area around Jostedalsbreen. (I have been thinking of that ice-hex as a big alpine hex, but that's wrong. it's quite possible to walk in ice - 3 for leg, 8 for mot.) Also on the way to Trondheim, Rondane could be marken with a alpine hex side SW of 34,38.

Right now I didn't mean to suggest these alpine additions, I just merely point out where I would put them if I was forced to add some more of them

I did mean to suggest the straits additions.

Nils

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 196

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 2:57:49 AM

Ullern

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I like this latest idea from Froonp. I already vote for that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

About M�laren & Hj�lmaren position & size :

quote:

The neatest solution may actually be to leave grapichs for M�laren as it is, and expand Hj�lmaren east so that it covers two hex sides. In that case it would be more obvious that the M�laren graphics does not imply that the hexside NW of (39,42) is blocked. While both lakes look more like their real sizes. And hence happy endings?

I've got another idea.
Hj�lmaren : have it block the SW hexside of 38,42 (this is the hex west of Stockholm), and draw it a little longer to the west (up to half the hexside), but not blocking.
M�laren : Leave it as it is for the blocking hexsides, but draw it slightly shorter (so that it reaches about 2/3rds inside the hex).

I say this because I also noticed that the distance beween the western tip of the Hj�lmaren is about 60-65 km from the northern tip of the V�ttern. Those 60-65 km deserve to be 2 hexsides too, and there is only 1 hexside between the lakes now. My solution would have 2 hexsides between them.

There are a lot of lakes in this crowded place, from a WiF & hexes point of view, and I think we should leave a bit more room between the 3 lakes for units to move and attack.

I'll draw it tomorrow to show you (unless there are loads of messages telling me this is nonsense ).
Good night !

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 197

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 10:37:39 AM

Peter Stauffenberg

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From: Oslo, Norway
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Mountain hex (NW Oslo) (37,37) (ullern) : Change to Forest
2 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.

quote:

That would make about half the hex mountains. In which case I think we should keep it mountain. But I am not sure I am right about the terrain... Borger?

Humm, I made it forest in the map I just posted, assuming Steve decision was to say YES to it even if it only had 2 voters. Are you now telling me to make it back to Mountain ? (which is easy as it is still in the layer underside).

I have as wallpaper for my computer desktop the European map taken 3 or 4 months ago. At that point in time the hex NW of Oslo was Forest. I do not know for certain how it got changed to mountain, but I suspect it was Claes working from the material we had provided him (probably Nils' original set of modifications). Let's leave it as forest unless there is some strong reason to change it to mountain.

This hex is definitely forest. I travelled in this area as late as this June and I can tell you the mountains Ullern are talking about are further away from H�nefoss. I guess he is thinking of Norefjell and those mountains are possible to see in the horizon when we drive down to H�nefoss from Sollih�gda.

Remember also that this hex contains the west bank of southern lake Mj�sa and the area between H�nefoss and this area. These areas are called Hadeland and Toten and are considered to be some of the best farmlands of entire Norway (after J�ren close to Stavanger). So this hex contains small towns like Lunner, Jevnaker etc. Norefjell is just in the very northwest part of this hex. So if hexsides had been used then the NW hexside should have been mountain. But MWIF uses terrain in entire hexes and in my opinion the most accurate terrain to describe this hex is forest because forest is a good compromise between all terrain types there (some clear, some forest and a little mountain).

I drove in June from Oslo to H�nefoss and further to Lunner and over the hills to Gardermoen (where Oslo airport is now). Those hills were forested and not of very high altitude.

Look here for a map of the Buskerud county where you will see both H�nefoss and Norefjell:

http://www.fylkesguiden.no/buskerud/kart.htm

Oslo is partly shown on the south-east mapedge. You clearly see here that Norefjell is quite some distance from H�nefoss (which is almost in the middle of the hex 1xNW of Oslo).

This is a map showing the county of Oppland:

http://www.campingguiden.no/oppland/kart.htm

The yellow dot just to the SW of Oppland is H�nefoss (the center of our hex). You can in the SW part of Oppland see Jevnaker, Lunner and Toten (closer to lake Mj�sa). The map clearly shows that this area is partly clear with some hills of not very high altitude. Those hills are forested. As I told I have driven there as late as June.

We even had a work meeting at Norefjell a few years ago and I know that it takes a while to drive from H�nefoss to reach there. Norefjell is the closest real mountains to Oslo. In 1952 the alpine competitions were held there during the Oslo Winter Olympics.

So I agree with Steve that the hex 1xNW of Oslo is forest and not mountain. I guess we Norwegians are so used to our country being full of mountains we even call small hills for mountains.

But in reality they are forested hills only. As a matter of fact the highest altitude in Norway is only 2469 m (or so). It's not much compared to most countries with mountain terrain. Our nice mountains were partly destroyed by the glaciers during the ice age. Therefore they don't look very sharp like the Alps etc. They also lost they altitude because the glaciers "gnawed" on the mountains for a very long time. But in return for this loss we got our nice fjords and valleys because the ice dug those out. And our fjords and valleys are of unique beauty.

< Message edited by Borger Borgersen -- 8/9/2006 10:42:59 AM >

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 198

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 12:03:11 PM

Froonp

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From: Marseilles, France
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Here is my new shot at Stockholm Maze of Lakes.
I also added the straits in Norway.
I did not add Alpine hexes, becauseI'm uncomfortable with Alpine hexsides that are between a Forest and a Mountain. I know there are already, but I do not like it.

Also, I wondered about Straits if there were no strait hexside to be put between somewhere around Trondheim and the chunk of land west of it. In the 40s I mean.

Also, I hope you are all sure thoses straits I added were here in the 40s

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Ullern)

Post #: 199

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:42:09 PM

Neilster

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From: Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
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quote:

Our nice mountains were partly destroyed by the glaciers during the ice age. Therefore they don't look very sharp like the Alps etc. They also lost they altitude because the glaciers "gnawed" on the mountains for a very long time. But in return for this loss we got our nice fjords and valleys because the ice dug those out. And our fjords and valleys are of unique beauty.

Well, I think you'll find that Slartibartfast is responsible for the Norwegian geography. He won an award for it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/cult/hitchhikers/guide/slartibartfast.shtml

Cheers, Neilster

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)

Post #: 200

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 1:46:29 PM

Froonp

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I had time at my job this morning, so I redid the northern coastlines to have a better place for Tromso. This was not 100% accurate previously. Now it is better.

Attachment (1)

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 201

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 6:25:03 PM

Toed

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From: Sweden
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I agree that the new placement of Hj�lmaren is better when compared to 'real' maps. Quality work.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 202

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 6:31:27 PM

c92nichj

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I believe the hex east of Oslo should belong to Sweden.
The Swedish-norweigian border is in the middle of the norweigian west coast and stockholm. on the map it is 10 hexes so 5 hexes should be swedish and 5 Norweigian, now 6 are Norweigain and 4 Swedish.
But maybe that's for game purposes.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 203

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 8:17:09 PM

Peter Stauffenberg

Posts: 403
Joined: 2/24/2006
From: Oslo, Norway
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quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

I believe the hex east of Oslo should belong to Sweden.
The Swedish-norweigian border is in the middle of the norweigian west coast and stockholm. on the map it is 10 hexes so 5 hexes should be swedish and 5 Norweigian, now 6 are Norweigain and 4 Swedish.
But maybe that's for game purposes.

I think it looks fine the way it is.

(in reply to c92nichj)

Post #: 204

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 8:20:00 PM

Peter Stauffenberg

Posts: 403
Joined: 2/24/2006
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toed

I agree that the new placement of Hj�lmaren is better when compared to 'real' maps. Quality work.

Great work. I think the coast line extension to Troms� is also very nice.

On the latest map you added the port of Turku. I agree with that, but I guess we need to extend the rail line to Turku so the port is rail connected. It was connected in 1939.

It's done by creating a branch in the hex 1xNE of Hanko. Draw the new rail line 1 hex westwards to Turku.

(in reply to Toed)

Post #: 205

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 8:26:34 PM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toed
I agree that the new placement of Hj�lmaren is better when compared to 'real' maps. Quality work.

Great work. I think the coast line extension to Troms� is also very nice.

On the latest map you added the port of Turku. I agree with that, but I guess we need to extend the rail line to Turku so the port is rail connected. It was connected in 1939.

It's done by creating a branch in the hex 1xNE of Hanko. Draw the new rail line 1 hex westwards to Turku.

I done it already.
Also, I made Turku an iced-in port, as Nils had drawn it that way in his first variation on Scandinavia. For Tromso, I drew it as an Ice free port, Am I right ?

I entered all the boring data in the CSV files so that the MWiF maps now is the same, except for the graphic for coastlines and lakes that will need to be done or re-done by the Graphic Artist.

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)

Post #: 206

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 9:07:19 PM

Peter Stauffenberg

Posts: 403
Joined: 2/24/2006
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Toed
I agree that the new placement of Hj�lmaren is better when compared to 'real' maps. Quality work.

Great work. I think the coast line extension to Troms� is also very nice.

On the latest map you added the port of Turku. I agree with that, but I guess we need to extend the rail line to Turku so the port is rail connected. It was connected in 1939.

It's done by creating a branch in the hex 1xNE of Hanko. Draw the new rail line 1 hex westwards to Turku.

I done it already.
Also, I made Turku an iced-in port, as Nils had drawn it that way in his first variation on Scandinavia. For Tromso, I drew it as an Ice free port, Am I right ?

I entered all the boring data in the CSV files so that the MWiF maps now is the same, except for the graphic for coastlines and lakes that will need to be done or re-done by the Graphic Artist.

All the ports of Norway are ice free. So you're definitely right there.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 207

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 9:19:44 PM

Peter Stauffenberg

Posts: 403
Joined: 2/24/2006
From: Oslo, Norway
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I think Gothenburg is slightly better than G�teborg. So I have decided on the former for the choice of names.

I agree with you here.

quote:

Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland

I just wanted to go through my votes again. This vote is YES.

quote:

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Since lake Mj�sa is added then I will vote NO here. Always nice with extra
lakes in Norway.

I notice the Swedish lakes don't use lake before the
name (V�nern, Hj�lmaren etc.). Maybe we can do the same for the Norwegian
lakes too? Only Femunden and Mj�sa.

How will you find space to name all the finnish lakes?

quote:

Bod� (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

I keep my vote of YES for this one. Port is as I mentioned in another message ice
free.

quote:

Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

For accuracy I would have voted yes, but for game play issues I would have voted no.
I agree with the arguments of both Ullern (who wants yes) and Froonp (who wants no).
But I have to make a choice and I think SW Norway should be a place where the Allies
should have a fair chance of making an invasion and grab the resource.

So for game play issues it's best to keep this hex a clear hex. It's not so wrong we
can't live with it. So my vote is now NO.

quote:

If there is more discussion on these 4, let's hear it. I'll make some sort of a decision in the next 2 days on these too. Of course, my preference would be for the group to reach near-unanimous agreement, so I don't have to decide.

That's a good point. We are getting down on the remaining issues on the list so we can finally close the Scandinavian map discussions and move on to other map issues.

What all MWIF map section discussions have shown is that there is always room for improvement. The more eyes looking the better the result.

So I wonder if there are any other sections of the map we have not looked at yet that would deserve our attention? Maybe Australia and New Zealand? Maybe India, Burma, Malaya etc.?

At least it's fun for all of us contributing to the discussion to see the great progress of the maps. And it makes the waiting for MWIF to finally finish easier to bear.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 208

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 9:19:52 PM

Toed

Posts: 55
Joined: 8/5/2006
From: Sweden
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

I believe the hex east of Oslo should belong to Sweden.
The Swedish-norweigian border is in the middle of the norweigian west coast and stockholm. on the map it is 10 hexes so 5 hexes should be swedish and 5 Norweigian, now 6 are Norweigain and 4 Swedish.
But maybe that's for game purposes.

I agree. I'd say that most of Norway south of Trondheim is to wide compared to Sweden or Sweden to narrow. However to fix this within the hexgrid available seems hard and not necessary in my opinion. And we do need to let our sad Norwegian brothers feel big for once.

(in reply to c92nichj)

Post #: 209

RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion - 8/9/2006 10:33:17 PM

Froonp

Posts: 7995
Joined: 10/21/2003
From: Marseilles, France
Status: offline

quote:

How will you find space to name all the finnish lakes?

For the moment I did not enter the name of the Lakes, neither the Finnish nor the Swedish. I have them on my drawn map, but not yet on the real MWiF map, but I'm not sure if Steve would want them all. We'll see. This is very very easy to add anywhen.

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)

Post #: 210