Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (Full Version)

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Froonp -> Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/3/2006 7:44:21 PM)
Here is what Scandinavia looks like in MWiF. The first modified Scandinavia map was drawn by Nils for CWiF for his own needs and pleasure (I suppose), and his map was taken as a basis for a corrected map for MWiF (Scandinavia was too much large originaly on the map). It was discussed for 3-4 weeks between he and I, and then put into CSV values by Claes, Steve and finally I. The coastlines shown here are not the final ones, the lakes drawn neither, but they should look something like that. The yellow lines are the WiF FE maps borders, and the grey letters are the letters printed on the WiF FE maps to make the Scandinavia portion join the European portion. These won't be on the MWiF map. They are here only for reference. However, the Scandinavia map will be like this for cities, ports, terrain, rivers and lakes placement. Obviously it can be corrected in places where it may be wrong. This map shows 2 new terrains unknown in WiF FE. These are the Ice terrain, and the Tundra terrain. Ice is the one seen north of Bergen, and Tundra is the one on the northern Kola Peninsula. Tundra is like mountain for movement (2 MP for leg units, 3 MP for MOT units), and like plains for combat. Ice is 3 MP for leg units, 8 MP for MOT units, and is like plains for combat. Those new terrains predate Steve participation to MWiF, they were already in the first versions of CWiF I was given to see. [image]local://upfiles/10447/0ACBD83D302F49BE9A559D0C5252E8B3.jpg[/image]

lomyrin -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/3/2006 9:10:30 PM)
The Scandinavian maps looks good. Gothenburg is shown as a minor port, it is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port - definitely a major port. Karlskrona is shown as a major port, it is primarily a Navy base and definitely only a minor port. I spent a considerable amount of time in both of these areas in the 50's, there is no mistake in the port sizes as I have outlined above. Lars

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/3/2006 9:41:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lomyrin The Scandinavian maps looks good. Gothenburg is shown as a minor port, it is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port - definitely a major port. Karlskrona is shown as a major port, it is primarily a Navy base and definitely only a minor port. I spent a considerable amount of time in both of these areas in the 50's, there is no mistake in the port sizes as I have outlined above. Lars Thanks for your input. Especially if you've been there in the 50s, there are chances that you knew them when they were quite similar to what they were 5-10 years before. However, this is a problem, as the ports you are telling us are wrong are ports that are on the European part of the WiF FE maps, and we decided that we would leave the European part of the WiF FE maps untouched. However, we changed it in some border maps areas (as in Iraq & eastern Turkey), and Steve might agree to change this too (moreover, they are ports that quite never enter play because Sweden is nearly eveytime neutral), but it is his decision, more a commercial decision than a design decision.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/3/2006 9:53:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: lomyrin The Scandinavian maps looks good. Gothenburg is shown as a minor port, it is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port - definitely a major port. Karlskrona is shown as a major port, it is primarily a Navy base and definitely only a minor port. I spent a considerable amount of time in both of these areas in the 50's, there is no mistake in the port sizes as I have outlined above. Lars Yeah, this was a problem area for me. CWIF had the size of the ports switched (as you suggest). But Patrice talked me into going with the WIF FE version. It's another one of these places where WIF FE apparently got it wrong and now I have to decide whether to make a correction or not. As a point of note, CWIF also had the straits between Denmark and Sweden going from the hex NW of Copenhagen to the hex NW of Malmo. I also changed that back to WIF FE's version. There was a minor port in the hex NW of Malmo too. How do forum members feel about this - I am undecided. By the way, I still have relatives in the Malmo area. In fact, a couple of my cousins from New Jersey are presently on vacation visiting the old ancestral home in Vitemule (spelling?). I was there once and listened to its "singing sands".

lomyrin -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/3/2006 10:19:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets quote: ORIGINAL: lomyrin The Scandinavian maps looks good. Gothenburg is shown as a minor port, it is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port - definitely a major port. Karlskrona is shown as a major port, it is primarily a Navy base and definitely only a minor port. I spent a considerable amount of time in both of these areas in the 50's, there is no mistake in the port sizes as I have outlined above. Lars Yeah, this was a problem area for me. CWIF had the size of the ports switched (as you suggest). But Patrice talked me into going with the WIF FE version. It's another one of these places where WIF FE apparently got it wrong and now I have to decide whether to make a correction or not. As a point of note, CWIF also had the straits between Denmark and Sweden going from the hex NW of Copenhagen to the hex NW of Malmo. I also changed that back to WIF FE's version. There was a minor port in the hex NW of Malmo too. How do forum members feel about this - I am undecided. By the way, I still have relatives in the Malmo area. In fact, a couple of my cousins from New Jersey are presently on vacation visiting the old ancestral home in Vitemule (spelling?). I was there once and listened to its "singing sands". CWiF had it correct. The narrowest part of the straits are between the Dannish town of Helsingor and the Swedish minor port of Helsingborg. They are located to the north of Copenhagen and Malmo respectively. Lars

Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/3/2006 10:27:26 PM)
Hi. I have some comments as usual to the interesting Scandinavian map. [;)] 1. I think the ice hexes should have some textures instead of being just while. I mistook them for being hexes without any information (thus a bug). Maybe some light blue texture to indicate they are glaciers. The ice hex close to Bergen is ok, it's the big Jostedalsbreen. 2. I think the ice hex in Norway north of Oslo is not correct, being placed on the coast line. I guess this ice hex is supposed to be the glacier Svartisen, but this glacier is placed close to the Swedish border. The ice hex now is approximately where the port of Bodų (Bodo) is. I would move the ice terrain 1 hex to the SE. 3. Maybe we need for supply reasons some more ports in northern Norway. Now only the port of Narvik is placed there. Maybe the port of Tromsų (Tromso) should be added. It's located 2xNE+E of Narvik. Maybe also the port of Bodų (Bodo) should be added too. It's located 2xW+3xSW of Narvik. The reason I mention this is how is Norwegian or German units there being supplied and transported if the only available port is Narvik. Both Bodų and Tromsų are larger towns than Narvik, even though Narvik was strategically more important due to being the port for the Swedish iron ore. Germany had a very big presence in Norway during WW2. 400.000 soldiers at most. Many of them were in the northern Norway. The fought against the Russians near Murmansk and they were supplied. So I guess some ports are needed to send reinforcements and keep the units up there in supply. 4. I don't understand why a lake hex is being added between Oslo and Trondheim so far away from Oslo. Even stranger is the clear terrain on the east bank of this lake. I guess this lake could be lake Femunden. But in this area it's only forest and mountains. I think the clear hex should be changed to mountain. Lake Femunden is located far away from the rail lines and roads between Oslo and Trondheim and would have little significance to hinder travel units between Oslo and Trondheim. Maybe the lake should be removed. 5. If the lake is kept then it's strange why not the biggest lake in Norway, lake Mjųsa (Mjosa) is drawn on the map. On the east bank of this lake goes the rail lines and roads between Oslo and Trondheim. Lake Mjųsa definitely has some impact of hindering military units going between Oslo and Trondheim. But lake Mjųsa is 80 km (south point) to 200 (north point) away directly north of Oslo. That would place lake Mjųsa in the hex with the letters CD. But this is on the European scaled map and therefore can't be changed. So if lake Mjųsa is not worth putting on the map then I feel the other map in Norway (lake Femunden) is definitely not worth putting there. 6. I feel that the SE most resource in Northern Sweden should be moved 1 hex NW, thus making the other hex a 2 resource hex. The Swedish iron ore of Gällivare and Kiruna were located in the highlands quite close to the Norwegian border. Not so close as the SE most hex to the Swedish coast line. 7. I think the Swedish port of Boden should be renamed to Luleå (Lulea). The city of Luleå is truly a port and quite big. Definitely the most important town in northern Sweden. The town of Boden is located inland quite near Luleå. Boden is smaller. If I remember correctly the town of Boden is mostly known as a town you may be sent to for your conscription service (gjöra lumpen i Boden). [;)] 8. I think it quite strange that the second largest Finnish city of Turku is not located on the map. It's should be a port located 1xNW of the port of Hanko. But this is again on the European scaled map and probably hard to change. But why add Vaasa, Oulu and Hanko while omit Turku and also Tampere. 9. The third largest city in Finland, Tampere, is also not located on the map. It should be in the clear hex 2xNW of Helsinki. This city can be placed because it's not on the European scaled WIFFE map. 10. Something is very weird about the western coast of Finland south of the town of Vaasa. It's like someone took and ate a big chunk of the land there. Some strange "bay" is now constructed there. The coastal line south of Vaasa goes almost in a straight vertical line from Vaasa til it hits the European scaled map 2x NW of Hanko. I think the big reason for this strange skewed coast line is because of the European scaled map in the hex with the letter N. It shows the coast line going eastwards and slightly northwards, indicating that there is a bay north of there (outside the original map). But this is not so on the real maps. So in order to not alter the European scaled map it's being created a curved coast line up to Vaasa. 11. I think this can be solved partly by letting the hex 1xSW of Vaasa becoming a land hex (most of the hex sea, but some of it being land). The swamp hex SE of this continue as a land hex, but with more land and less sea. The hex SW of this swamp hex (NW of the hex with the letter N) should become a land hex with most of the hex being sea. The hex with the letter N should then get a small narrow land link to the new land hex NW of it. Now it's possible to draw an almost vertical coast line for this part of Finland. 12. But to make it more correctly then the following should be done. The clear hex on the WIFFE European scaled map with the letter M should become an all sea hex. Thus the hex SE of this hex must have both sea and land in its NE hexside, with the coast line going to the hex with the letter N. The hex with the letter N should remain as a land hex, but more of the hex should be sea and less land. Then the other hexes north of this hex can remain as they are and the correct vertical coast line to Vaasa is kept. So the big question is if we can turn the small land hex with the letter M into and all sea hex and with this minor change fix the entire problem. It's a change of the European map, but is there any change some battles would take place in this hex? 13. The Karelia territory in Finland that they will eventually cede to Russia looks strange. I think it's way too wide. Again the problem has arisen because the European scaled WIFFE map has marked part of the Karelia territory in the hexes with the letter S, T and U. Thus indicating the width is about 3 hexes. I think this can be solved by doing the following: Let the hexes 2xNE and 3xNE of Vyborg be inside Finland and NOT inside Karelia. And also let the hex 2xE+3xNE of Vyborg be inside Russia and NOT inside Karelia. With these changes the Karelia territory is only 3 hexes wide where the lake Ladoga lies. It's still not perfect, but at least it looks closer to the real Karelia area that Finland ceded without changing the European scaled map. 14. I think the Kola peninsula looks too wide (east-west wise) and too thin (north-south wise). But I guess this is part of the Mercator projection distortion. So trying to fix this won't be easy. To me it seems like the White Sea is stretched east-west 2-3 hexes too much. But it can't be fixed without fixing the land areas everywhere in the region, Archangel, Finland, Northern Norway. It will create a really nasty domino effect that would create a problem somewhere else. So I guess we just have to live with this imperfection of the map. [;)] I will look further when I have more time. But at least I have found something for us to discuss. [:D]

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/3/2006 10:33:23 PM)
quote: Yeah, this was a problem area for me. CWIF had the size of the ports switched (as you suggest). But Patrice talked me into going with the WIF FE version. It's another one of these places where WIF FE apparently got it wrong and now I have to decide whether to make a correction or not. As a point of note, CWIF also had the straits between Denmark and Sweden going from the hex NW of Copenhagen to the hex NW of Malmo. I also changed that back to WIF FE's version. There was a minor port in the hex NW of Malmo too. How do forum members feel about this - I am undecided. I think that there are 2 sides to this question : First, there is the real geographical side. Here I think that the MWiF map should be as true as possible to reality, without hurting original WiF FE play. Second, there is the "true to the WiF FE Play" side. Here I think that important features of the European part of the WiF FE map should be left untouched. For example, there should be no additional city in Germany, or Russia, or France, etc... The reason for this is that this would change the play of the game too much from the cardboard version to the PC version. On the other hand, there are areas of lesser importance for WiF FE play, that only saw play very rarely amongst WiF FE players, and I think that these area can be edited. In the Sweden case, I think that all the changes expressed by Lars & Steve can be made, because they satisfy the second side, and they satisfy the first side. In the Norway case on the other hand, I would be against adding Rivers north of Oslo that could have been added, because Norway can see some play, and rivers are important part of the play, especially in places with a handfull of counters only.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/3/2006 11:01:50 PM)
Borger, But other than that, it was perfect?[:D][:D][:D] Let's hear from the other Scandinavians too. Perhaps a consensus can be built.[;)]

Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/3/2006 11:58:39 PM)
Yep. [:D] [:D] [:D] To both it was perfect and a consensus should be built.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 12:47:55 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen Yep. [:D] [:D] [:D] To both it was perfect and a consensus should be built. Towards that goal: 1 - I agree. I'll have Rob throw some blue into the ice terrain graphic. 6 - Easy to do and should have minimal effect overall. 14 - Let's leave the Kola penisula as is. If any players end up fighting there, they should have their heads examined. 3 down, 11 to go!

Incy -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 5:38:37 AM)
I'm missing ports in Bodų (where the northern glacier hex is) and Tromsų (about 3 hexes north and east of Narvik). Narvik should be on the border between arctic and norwegian seas? Sognefjord (the big fjord old map edge) is drawn way to wide. It should be narrower, and have a strait hex in the western part I'd make themountain hex NW of hex CD a forest, and I agree thre shouldn't be a clearhex in the central east. The lake is OK. Norway has more lakes than Finland, so I think we should get to kep at least 1 :)

c92nichj -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 6:02:45 AM)
Some comments a) The three swedish resources should probably all be placed in the same hex Kiruna(the one in the middle) b) As others allready said Gothenburg was a major port c) The finish border definately looks strange, when fixing it, it would be good if marines still could walk from Finland to Sweden as the archipelago between the countries is quite extensive. d) There is no need to have any lakes in Norway as even mjösa is quite tiny. e) Åbo second largest city in Finland is probably to small to warrant a city but maybe could be added as a port f) There should probably be strait hexes from both Malmö and Helsingborg(Hex NW Malmö) to Copenhagen, öresund is pretty narrow. g) I think the big lakes(Vänern and Vättern) in south Sweden are to small f) There should be a railroad between Gothenburg and Stockholm that passes between Vänern and Vättern. Västra stambanan was Swedens main railway and elektrified as early as 1926, in 1940 the speed on this railroad was 120 km/h. d) There should be a forest (Tiveden) in the hex north of Vättern bordering to Vänern to break the all clear terrain between Gothenburg and Stockholm.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 6:47:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: c92nichj Some comments a) The three swedish resources should probably all be placed in the same hex Kiruna(the one in the middle) b) As others allready said Gothenburg was a major port c) The finish border definately looks strange, when fixing it, it would be good if marines still could walk from Finland to Sweden as the archipelago between the countries is quite extensive. d) There is no need to have any lakes in Norway as even mjösa is quite tiny. e) Åbo second largest city in Finland is probably to small to warrant a city but maybe could be added as a port f) There should probably be strait hexes from both Malmö and Helsingborg(Hex NW Malmö) to Copenhagen, öresund is pretty narrow. g) I think the big lakes(Vänern and Vättern) in south Sweden are to small h) There should be a railroad between Gothenburg and Stockholm that passes between Vänern and Vättern. Västra stambanan was Swedens main railway and elektrified as early as 1926, in 1940 the speed on this railroad was 120 km/h. i) There should be a forest (Tiveden) in the hex north of Vättern bordering to Vänern to break the all clear terrain between Gothenburg and Stockholm. Ok. Let me see if I can close some of these and clarify others. a - Is it just one mining area or is it spread out along the rail line? b - Yes. c - Marines from Finland can walk over the Baltic into Stockholm. Do you mean there should be more crossing points? f - Do you know how the ferries run? Perhaps that could help us decide. I made the crossing over 20 years ago but those brain cells have died. g - Would the larger lakes prevent land movement between additional hexsides? If so, which hexsides? h - If you could give the details, we'll put it in. By details I mean which hexes and which hexsides for the rail line.

c92nichj -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 9:54:07 AM)
quote: a - Is it just one mining area or is it spread out along the rail line? Its two mining area Kiruna and Malmberget but I believe they are in the same hex quote: c - Marines from Finland can walk over the Baltic into Stockholm. Do you mean there should be more crossing points? If we fix the issue with the strange finish coast line by adding all sea hexes, make sure that there is still possibility for the marines to cross. quote: f - Do you know how the ferries run? Perhaps that could help us decide. I made the crossing over 20 years ago but those brain cells have died. Ferries run between the hex NW Copenhagen and NW Malmö, this is the shortest distance between the countries. Nowerdays there is also a bridge between Malmö and Copenhagen, I think both the northern and the southern route shall be a strait. quote: g - Would the larger lakes prevent land movement between additional hexsides? If so, which hexsides? The Hexes occupied by Vänern the larger northern lake are OK only the outline needs enhancing. I think Vättern should extend one more hexside to the southwest. The area where I grew up is called roughly translated 'the plains between the lakes' quote: h - If you could give the details, we'll put it in. By details I mean which hexes and which hexsides for the rail line. From Gothenburg the rail would go E;NE;NE;E and join with the other rail.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 11:14:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: c92nichj quote: a - Is it just one mining area or is it spread out along the rail line? Its two mining area Kiruna and Malmberget but I believe they are in the same hex quote: c - Marines from Finland can walk over the Baltic into Stockholm. Do you mean there should be more crossing points? If we fix the issue with the strange finish coast line by adding all sea hexes, make sure that there is still possibility for the marines to cross. quote: f - Do you know how the ferries run? Perhaps that could help us decide. I made the crossing over 20 years ago but those brain cells have died. Ferries run between the hex NW Copenhagen and NW Malmö, this is the shortest distance between the countries. Nowerdays there is also a bridge between Malmö and Copenhagen, I think both the northern and the southern route shall be a strait. quote: g - Would the larger lakes prevent land movement between additional hexsides? If so, which hexsides? The Hexes occupied by Vänern the larger northern lake are OK only the outline needs enhancing. I think Vättern should extend one more hexside to the southwest. The area where I grew up is called roughly translated 'the plains between the lakes' quote: h - If you could give the details, we'll put it in. By details I mean which hexes and which hexsides for the rail line. From Gothenburg the rail would go E;NE;NE;E and join with the other rail. Thanks.

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 6:01:17 PM)
Well, I have the feeling we've opened up again the Pandora box. I think that we should do it the same we did China, that is open it to votes. I also think that we won't re-do the basic outlines of the whole map, that is the Kola peninsula for example, this is a too much hard work. But if Steve decides it should be done, it will be. We can change lots of things however, to make it better. I'll sum up the various proposal that were made, as well as the votes already expressed in a future post. All interested persons should vote, and propose things if they see something wrong.

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 6:47:49 PM)
The proposed modifications are : Name of modification : Gothenburg (41,38) (lomyrin) City, Minor Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : it is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port - definitely a major port. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 4 Name of modification : Karlskrona (44,42) (lomyrin) Major Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : it is primarily a Navy base and definitely only a minor port. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo (45,38 E) (c92nichj) Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Keep Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (45,38 NE) (c92nichj) Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 1 Name of modification : Strait from NW of Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin) Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Straits are between the Dannish town of Helsingor and the Swedish minor port of Helsingborg. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 1 Name of modification : Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : This glacier is placed close to Swedish border. Move the ice 1 hex SE. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Tromsų (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) Minor Port / Norway Modification to make / Reason : For supply reasons. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 3 Name of modification : Bodų (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) Minor Port / Norway Modification to make / Reason : For supply reasons. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 3 Name of modification : Lake Mjųsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) Lake / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Add. Vote YES : 0.66666666666666663 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.33333333333333331 / # Voters : 3 Name of modification : Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) Lake / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Removed. Vote YES : 0.25 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.75 / # Voters : 4 Name of modification : Vänern () (c92nichj) Lake / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : The outline needs enhancing Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Vättern (40,40 SE) (c92nichj) Lake / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Extended 1 hexside SW. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Clear hex (34,39) (Borger) Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Changed to Mountain. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 1 (26,46) (Borger) Resource / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Move 1 hex NW. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) Resource / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Move 1 hex SE. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Boden (27,46) (Borger) Minor Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Renammed Luleå (Lulea). Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Turku (37,46) (Borger) Minor Port / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Add. Second largest Finnish city. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Åbo (?) (lomyrin) Minor Port / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Add. Second largest city in Finland. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Tampere (35,47) (Borger) City / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Add. Third largest city. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1a (33,45) (Borger) Terrain / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1b (35,45) (Borger) Terrain / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 2 (36,45) (Borger) Terrain / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Become all Sea. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands, Become Russian. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Sognefjord () (Incy) Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Drawn too wide. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Mountain hex (35,37) (Incy) Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Changed to Forest. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm () (c92nichj) Rail / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Passes between Vänern and Vättern. From Gothenburg the rail would go E;NE;NE;E and join with the other rail. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 7:03:32 PM)
quote: Name of modification : Turku (37,46) (Borger) Minor Port / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Add. Second largest Finnish city. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Åbo (?) (lomyrin) Minor Port / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Add. Second largest city in Finland. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 So there are 2 second larges Finnish cities ??? [:D] quote: Name of modification : Tampere (35,47) (Borger) City / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Add. Third largest city. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 For this one, I voted NO, and I'll keep my vote to NO unless this is established that Tampere had largely more than 100k inhabitants in 1939-1945. Even then I'd be enclined to stay to NO, because at the present time, Finland has a grand total of ONE city, and adding a second changes things A LOT.

c92nichj -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 7:27:59 PM)
quote: So there are 2 second larges Finnish cities ??? Finland like Belgium have two official languages (The swedish name is Åbo and the Finnish name is Turku) WIF is not consistent in using Swedish or Finnish. It is using Swedish for Vyborg instead of Viipuri, Finland instead of Soumi, Hango instead of Hanko but Finnish for Helsinki instead of Helsingfors. Petsamo is the same in both languages.

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 7:40:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: c92nichj quote: So there are 2 second larges Finnish cities ??? Finland like Belgium have two official languages (The swedish name is Åbo and the Finnish name is Turku) WIF is not consistent in using Swedish or Finnish. It is using Swedish for Vyborg instead of Viipuri, Finland instead of Soumi, Hango instead of Hanko but Finnish for Helsinki instead of Helsingfors. Petsamo is the same in both languages. Great, I learned something ! Thanks ! I'm updating my spreadsheet now I know that Åbo is Turku.

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 7:54:45 PM)
quote: Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands, Become Russian. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 For the Finnish borderlands, I wanted to stress the fact that Nils and I had it this way so that a 4 factor moving leg Finnish unit could not cut the Murmansk Rail between the Ladoga and Onega Lakes in 1 Impulse if the Finnish Borderlands were Russian controlled, when Finland declares war to Russia. It seems to us that the reason for the Russians to demand this territory was something like that, to help prevent the Fins to cut their Murmansk Railway to easily.

wfzimmerman -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 7:56:57 PM)
This ballot is too complicated for me (I must live in Florida or Ohio!), but I vote YES for anything that increases the historical or geogrpahic accuracy of either map. I am married with two kids, don't have a regular WIF board game, and expect to play MWIF exclusively. I don't care about game play being identical to legacy WIFFE. quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp The proposed modifications are : Name of modification : Gothenburg (41,38) (lomyrin) City, Minor Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : it is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port - definitely a major port. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 4 Name of modification : Karlskrona (44,42) (lomyrin) Major Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : it is primarily a Navy base and definitely only a minor port. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo (45,38 E) (c92nichj) Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Keep Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (45,38 NE) (c92nichj) Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 1 Name of modification : Strait from NW of Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin) Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Straits are between the Dannish town of Helsingor and the Swedish minor port of Helsingborg. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 1 Name of modification : Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : This glacier is placed close to Swedish border. Move the ice 1 hex SE. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Tromsų (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) Minor Port / Norway Modification to make / Reason : For supply reasons. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 3 Name of modification : Bodų (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) Minor Port / Norway Modification to make / Reason : For supply reasons. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 3 Name of modification : Lake Mjųsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) Lake / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Add. Vote YES : 0.66666666666666663 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.33333333333333331 / # Voters : 3 Name of modification : Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) Lake / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Removed. Vote YES : 0.25 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.75 / # Voters : 4 Name of modification : Vänern () (c92nichj) Lake / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : The outline needs enhancing Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Vättern (40,40 SE) (c92nichj) Lake / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Extended 1 hexside SW. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Clear hex (34,39) (Borger) Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Changed to Mountain. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 1 (26,46) (Borger) Resource / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Move 1 hex NW. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) Resource / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Move 1 hex SE. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Boden (27,46) (Borger) Minor Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Renammed Luleå (Lulea). Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Turku (37,46) (Borger) Minor Port / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Add. Second largest Finnish city. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Åbo (?) (lomyrin) Minor Port / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Add. Second largest city in Finland. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Tampere (35,47) (Borger) City / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Add. Third largest city. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1a (33,45) (Borger) Terrain / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1b (35,45) (Borger) Terrain / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Become land hex with most of the hex being sea. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 2 (36,45) (Borger) Terrain / Finland Modification to make / Reason : Become all Sea. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands; Become Finnish. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) Country / Finland Modification to make / Reason : No more Finnish borderlands, Become Russian. Vote YES : 0.5 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0.5 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Sognefjord () (Incy) Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Drawn too wide. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Mountain hex (35,37) (Incy) Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Changed to Forest. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2 Name of modification : Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm () (c92nichj) Rail / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Passes between Vänern and Vättern. From Gothenburg the rail would go E;NE;NE;E and join with the other rail. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 2

c92nichj -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 8:07:56 PM)
quote: Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (45,38 NE) (c92nichj) Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 1 Name of modification : Strait from NW of Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin) Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Straits are between the Dannish town of Helsingor and the Swedish minor port of Helsingborg. Vote YES : 1 (1 = 100%) / Vote NO : 0 / # Voters : 1 My first option should actually be the same as Lars. I want two straits, one between Malmö and Copenhagen and one between Helsingborg & Helsingör

Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 8:10:19 PM)
Here is some info about Tampere: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tampere

Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 8:19:45 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp The proposed modifications are : Name of modification : Gothenburg (41,38) (lomyrin) City, Minor Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : it is one of the largest ports in Sweden and the main Swedish West Coast port - definitely a major port. Here are my votes. YES quote: Name of modification : Karlskrona (44,42) (lomyrin) Major Port / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : it is primarily a Navy base and definitely only a minor port. YES quote: Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo (45,38 E) (c92nichj) Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Keep YES quote: Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (45,38 NE) (c92nichj) Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. NO quote: Name of modification : Strait from NW of Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin) Strait / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Straits are between the Dannish town of Helsingor and the Swedish minor port of Helsingborg. YES quote: Name of modification : Vänern () (c92nichj) Lake / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : The outline needs enhancing YES quote: Name of modification : Vättern (40,40 SE) (c92nichj) Lake / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Extended 1 hexside SW. YES quote: Name of modification : Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) Resource / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Move 1 hex SE. NO. I think it's best to have the iron ore resources in 2 separate hexes. But it's not so important I would object if you make the centre one a 3 resource hex. quote: Name of modification : Sognefjord () (Incy) Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Drawn too wide. YES. Definitely. The Sognefjord looks weird now. The 2 hexes south of the Sognefjord must have more land and less sea. I think this can easily be corrected without changing anything, but the coastal hexes. quote: Name of modification : Mountain hex (35,37) (Incy) Terrain / Norway Modification to make / Reason : Changed to Forest. YES quote: Name of modification : Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm () (c92nichj) Rail / Sweden Modification to make / Reason : Add. Passes between Vänern and Vättern. From Gothenburg the rail would go E;NE;NE;E and join with the other rail. YES

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 8:26:31 PM)
Name of modification : Gothenburg (41,38) (lomyrin) Yes Name of modification : Karlskrona (44,42) (lomyrin) Yes Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo (45,38 E) (c92nichj) Yes Name of modification : Strait from Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (45,38 NE) (c92nichj) No Name of modification : Strait from NW of Copenhagen to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) (44,38 E) (lomyrin) Yes Name of modification : Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) Yes Name of modification : Tromsųų (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) Yes Name of modification : Bodųų (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) Yes Name of modification : Lake Mjųųsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) No opinion Name of modification : Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) No opinion Name of modification : Väänern () (c92nichj) Yes Name of modification : Väättern (40,40 SE) (c92nichj) Yes Name of modification : Clear hex (34,39) (Borger) Yes Name of modification : Iron ore of Gäällivare & Kiruna 1 (26,46) (Borger) Yes Name of modification : Iron ore of Gäällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) Yes Name of modification : Boden (27,46) (Borger) Yes Name of modification : Turku (37,46) (Borger) Yes Name of modification : ÅÅbo (?) (lomyrin) Moot point, same as Turku Name of modification : Tampere (35,47) (Borger) Yes I need to see a picture to vote intelligently on the next 3: Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1a (33,45) (Borger) ? Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 1b (35,45) (Borger) ? Name of modification : Coast south of Vaasa 2 (36,45) (Borger) ? For the next 3, I agree with the compromise Nils and Patrice reached that prevents Finland from cutting the rail line during the first impulse of war. Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) No Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) No Name of modification : Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) No Name of modification : Sognefjord () (Incy) Yes Name of modification : Mountain hex (35,37) (Incy) Yes Name of modification : Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm () (c92nichj) Yes I would like to change the names of the Finnish cities to the Finnish names. There aren’t that many of them and it is similar to what we did in China. I do not want to do this in the rest of the world though! Can you imagine? All the cities of the world with Finnish spellings!

Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 8:26:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp For the Finnish borderlands, I wanted to stress the fact that Nils and I had it this way so that a 4 factor moving leg Finnish unit could not cut the Murmansk Rail between the Ladoga and Onega Lakes in 1 Impulse if the Finnish Borderlands were Russian controlled, when Finland declares war to Russia. It seems to us that the reason for the Russians to demand this territory was something like that, to help prevent the Fins to cut their Murmansk Railway to easily. Isn't it possible for Russia to prevent this by placing some units and use the ZOC's. Russia had some units here to protect their borders. And if a lone Finnish unit plunges deep into Russia then it can be put out of supply if there are Russian units south and north of it. Of the 3 changes I proposed for the Karelia territory I think the 1 hex being part of Russia and not Karelia won't have a negative effect.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 8:50:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp For the Finnish borderlands, I wanted to stress the fact that Nils and I had it this way so that a 4 factor moving leg Finnish unit could not cut the Murmansk Rail between the Ladoga and Onega Lakes in 1 Impulse if the Finnish Borderlands were Russian controlled, when Finland declares war to Russia. It seems to us that the reason for the Russians to demand this territory was something like that, to help prevent the Fins to cut their Murmansk Railway to easily. Isn't it possible for Russia to prevent this by placing some units and use the ZOC's. Russia had some units here to protect their borders. And if a lone Finnish unit plunges deep into Russia then it can be put out of supply if there are Russian units south and north of it. Of the 3 changes I proposed for the Karelia territory I think the 1 hex being part of Russia and not Karelia won't have a negative effect. I should really let Nils and Patrice discuss this in more detail, but ... Their analysis looked at several Finnish units with a movement allowance of 4, supported by an HQ, moving around Lake Lagoda and threatening Leningrad from the southeast. While they would not succeed in taking Leningrad, their presence would change the dynamic of the Finnish-USSR frontline - primarily by giving the Finns a defensive position along the Svir river between lake Lagoda and Lake Onega, if nothing else. The extra hex or 2 for the Finnish Borderlands makes that more difficult to do.

Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 9:00:09 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets I should really let Nils and Patrice discuss this in more detail, but ... Their analysis looked at several Finnish units with a movement allowance of 4, supported by an HQ, moving around Lake Lagoda and threatening Leningrad from the southeast. While they would not succeed in taking Leningrad, their presence would change the dynamic of the Finnish-USSR frontline - primarily by giving the Finns a defensive position along the Svir river between lake Lagoda and Lake Onega, if nothing else. The extra hex or 2 for the Finnish Borderlands makes that more difficult to do. I understand this about the 2 Finnish hexes inside Karelia I was talking about. But the northeasternmost hex inside today's Karelia could easily be placed inside Russia (thus meaning it always remains part of Russia). It makes the Karelia part look a little bit better. Is there a reason why this are needs to be part of Finland BEFORE they cede Karelia to Russia. I don't think Finland ever had territory that far east.

c92nichj -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/4/2006 9:01:14 PM)
quote: I would like to change the names of the Finnish cities to the Finnish names. There aren’t that many of them and it is similar to what we did in China. I do not want to do this in the rest of the world though! Can you imagine? All the cities of the world with Finnish spellings! I would object to this, the more internationally accepted names during WWII was the Swedish versions of the names, Finland, Åbo, Helsingfors, Hangö, Tammerfors, Viborg as the dominant force in the administration had been Swedish since the 10th century, people like Mannerheim was swedish for example a decendant from the Swedish king Johan the III. During the latter part of the 20th century the government became more dominated by the finnish people and the finnishification(?) increased in strength this is why the Finnish version of the names are more common in modern maps.

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