RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (Full Version)

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Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 1:08:34 PM)

quote:

I found another map of Norway you may use to draw the coast lines further north. It's embedded into this message. Here is the link if you want the original map:
http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/norway_pol96.jpg

Got them too :-)
I found them slightly complicated to use for drawing coastlines, but if you think that the coastlines are ok on these, I'll use them to redo the part between Trondheim & Narvik. I was not happy at all of them in my first drawing of post #1.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 1:10:49 PM)

quote:

Thereby explaining why my last name is spelled Hokanson.

Does this mean that you are son of Hokan ?
Does Hokan means something in Scandinavian (Swedish ? Norwegian ?) Does this mean something like Smith, Baker, etc...
I always thought that Andersen, Chritiansen meant "Son of", is this true ?



Toed -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 1:35:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Thereby explaining why my last name is spelled Hokanson.

Does this mean that you are son of Hokan ?
Does Hokan means something in Scandinavian (Swedish ? Norwegian ?) Does this mean something like Smith, Baker, etc...
I always thought that Andersen, Chritiansen meant "Son of", is this true ?

Hokan with Swedish spelling would be Håkan probably. Hokanson is indeed "Son of Hokan". Hokansen is the same but with a Danish touch.
Håkan(modern) is an old nordic name (Hakon, Hakun) probably meaning 'den högättade' - 'noble one'. First Swedish written example of the name is from a runestone dated circa 1000 ad.
You can find strange facts online. [:)]



Toed -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 1:58:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

I also wonder if the lake in northern Sweden (just south of the resources) is maybe too big. Lake Hornavan?
Considering the riverlines I would name the 5 northenmost lakes in Sweden on the current map this. From north to south - Torneträsk, Stora Lulevatten, Hornavan, Storuman and Storsjön.



Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 3:07:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
[Got them too :-)
I found them slightly complicated to use for drawing coastlines, but if you think that the coastlines are ok on these, I'll use them to redo the part between Trondheim & Narvik. I was not happy at all of them in my first drawing of post #1.


I think you can use this map as a basis and make some simplifications where you feel it's needed. Meaning it's not necessary to draw every little island or every little curve in the coast line to indicate a very small fjord, peninsula or whatever. Use the map and make simplifications where needed. For example the coast line outside the Trondheimsfjord doesn't need to show all those small curves. It's better to draw a pretty strait line going north-eastwards.



Ullern -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 6:06:56 PM)

I am not completly satisified by dismissing the Hjälmaren isue.

Maps always helps. So down below I have made a map where I just try to map real world onto the WIF map without caring for the limitation of hex sides. (Obviously what I did was
pink : lakes
orange : real border
black : railway

I guess this map can be used both to dimsiss the argument, but can also be used to find a solution.



[image]local://upfiles/20823/68109BD9833740CEAD06F777DB72EC4E.jpg[/image]



Ullern -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 6:26:45 PM)

With the above I'll vote Yes to adding Hjälmaren NW on hex 39,41.

On the northern Sweden lake issue I am just gonna add that up there many of the lakes are really long and thin like Femunden:
The lake north of the Kiruna line I measure to 120 km (it's really really thin the eastern 60 km)
The lake south of Kiruna I measure to 150 km
The one further south of that I measure to 110 km.




trees trees -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 6:52:42 PM)

[although my last name is Finnish and means "Lakeson" in English I know far too little about Scandinavian geography to even vote on these, but an interesting thread nonetheless.]

[[anyone remember GDW maps in the rpg 'Traveller' that covered polar areas with a unique system of triangular prongs extending towards the pole...east-west movement was from prong to prong, with the prongs narrowing down until the actual North or South Pole hex of a planet being a hex of six slices from the six prongs. very good way to handle two-dimensional projections with a hex system, just wondering if any other game ever used this?]]



Ullern -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 7:14:31 PM)

About that projection thing: If the Sweden was the center of the WIF universere then Oslo should have been on hex NW of where it is. And that whould have consequences for how rest of Norway is drawn. But in WIF, distances like Norway-UK are more important than Swedish geography. And that leaves Oslo where it is.

Now with Oslo is where it is. It's neccesary that Norway have those two hexes east and south east to allow those operations that hypoteticly could take place there.
_ As a Norwegian I can state that I have no imidiate plans for giving up the ooccupied teritories! [sm=Evil-210.gif]



trees trees -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 7:45:59 PM)

Although I someday hope to see northern Scandinavian geography up-close I still can't vote on most of these....

but I noticed a few points:

Will the coastline around Narvik be drawn to make the Narvik hex invadable? I can't recall if the Germans were able to land directly near the town or had to pick a beach some kilometers away?

I do recall that the Germans used another port to base at various times the Scharnhorst and the Tirpitz a bit farther north than Narvik, Alta-Fjord I think? So adding one here would make plenty of historical sense.

But to simulate the way the campaign against Murmansk was waged would require a rules change. In the war the Germans used sea-supply convoys to bring supplies from northern Norway to the northern tip of Finnish territory. In WiF this will never happen as if you want to attack Murmansk by land you have to use an HQ which can then draw supply from the Finnish road. And you could never supply the northern Norwegian ports except via sea in the Arctic ocean, which can't happen in WiF as you can't trace a supply line back to Germany across sea areas twice, and the Allies would never let you use the North Sea. So adding ports to north Norway won't really change anything in the game.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 7:47:19 PM)

Here's what I came up with for the coastlines between Trondheim & Narvik.
I'm not as enthusastic here as for the Bergen-Kristiansand portion, but this is good enough. I should have chanded some all sea hexsides and added a land hex for it to be better, but I'm ok as like this too.
The small ports without names are supposedly Bodo and Tromso.

Also, I made the Swedish lakes thinner, to see what they looked like (and erased the underlying lake hexside).
In my opinion, even if they are that thin in reality, they should be painted less thin, as I think they not enough outstanding on the map, compared to the Finnish lakes (who would need thinning too if the Swedish lakes' thinning was to be kept).

[image]local://upfiles/10447/125262BA037F470ABD251332653B880A.jpg[/image]



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 8:00:31 PM)

quote:

Will the coastline around Narvik be drawn to make the Narvik hex invadable? I can't recall if the Germans were able to land directly near the town or had to pick a beach some kilometers away?

The way the coastlines are drawn doesn't matter.
What matter is if the hex has an all sea hexside or not.
In the case of Bergen, it has 5 All sea hexes (see attached picture where all sea hexsides have been painted in light blue on the right picture), so it is invadable.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/3425153BCED7482088F8A7EACEB0A948.jpg[/image]



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 8:11:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

Thereby explaining why my last name is spelled Hokanson.

Does this mean that you are son of Hokan ?
Does Hokan means something in Scandinavian (Swedish ? Norwegian ?) Does this mean something like Smith, Baker, etc...
I always thought that Andersen, Chritiansen meant "Son of", is this true ?


Literally it means "son of" as does "ovitch" and "ovna" in Russian (for men and women respectively). However both my father and his father were named Oscar. I do not know when (or indeed, even if) the naming custom changed.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 8:13:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen
quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
[Got them too :-)
I found them slightly complicated to use for drawing coastlines, but if you think that the coastlines are ok on these, I'll use them to redo the part between Trondheim & Narvik. I was not happy at all of them in my first drawing of post #1.


I think you can use this map as a basis and make some simplifications where you feel it's needed. Meaning it's not necessary to draw every little island or every little curve in the coast line to indicate a very small fjord, peninsula or whatever. Use the map and make simplifications where needed. For example the coast line outside the Trondheimsfjord doesn't need to show all those small curves. It's better to draw a pretty strait line going north-eastwards.


Mathematically, all coastlines are infinitely long.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 8:26:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ullern
I am not completly satisified by dismissing the Hjälmaren isue.

Maps always helps. So down below I have made a map where I just try to map real world onto the WIF map without caring for the limitation of hex sides. (Obviously what I did was
pink : lakes
orange : real border
black : railway

I guess this map can be used both to dimsiss the argument, but can also be used to find a solution.
[image]local://upfiles/20823/68109BD9833740CEAD06F777DB72EC4E.jpg[/image]


If agreement can be reached that this map is an accurate depiction, then I agree with adding the lake hexside for Hjälmaren NW on hex 39,41 (as suggested by Ullern). Putting in this new lake hexside seems to force the rail line to move south as shown in black and removal of the previous rail line that ran just north of the lakes.

This map also makes me change my vote from Yes to No for extending the south eastern lake (one of the V names) an extra hexside. WIF FE seems to have that right - at least according to this map.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 8:29:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
quote:

Will the coastline around Narvik be drawn to make the Narvik hex invadable? I can't recall if the Germans were able to land directly near the town or had to pick a beach some kilometers away?

The way the coastlines are drawn doesn't matter.
What matter is if the hex has an all sea hexside or not.
In the case of Bergen, it has 5 All sea hexes (see attached picture where all sea hexsides have been painted in light blue on the right picture), so it is invadable.
[image]local://upfiles/10447/3425153BCED7482088F8A7EACEB0A948.jpg[/image]


And to answer your question directly, Narvik, as drawn, does have an all-sea hexside and is invadable.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 10:07:48 PM)

quote:

And to answer your question directly, Narvik, as drawn, does have an all-sea hexside and is invadable.

Yes, sorry, I forgot the question [:D].



Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 10:43:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

Here's what I came up with for the coastlines between Trondheim & Narvik.
I'm not as enthusastic here as for the Bergen-Kristiansand portion, but this is good enough. I should have chanded some all sea hexsides and added a land hex for it to be better, but I'm ok as like this too.
The small ports without names are supposedly Bodo and Tromso.

Also, I made the Swedish lakes thinner, to see what they looked like (and erased the underlying lake hexside).
In my opinion, even if they are that thin in reality, they should be painted less thin, as I think they not enough outstanding on the map, compared to the Finnish lakes (who would need thinning too if the Swedish lakes' thinning was to be kept).


I think the coast lines between Trondheim and Narvik look good now and definetely good enough for MWIF. The only thing I would comment is that Tromsø is probably placed in the wrong hex. The big island NW of where you placed Tromsø is the Senja island. And Tromsø is east of Senja island.

I think maybe it's more correct to place Tromsø in the hex 1xNE of where you placed Tromsø. I think Tromsø should be located on the vertical coast line of the mainland near the strait arrow to the island to the NW. It means that Tromsø is located a little bit to the left of the center of the hex.

The distances between Bodø and Narvik and Tromsø and Narvik are similar (slightly longer between Bodø and Narvik). So I think 4 hexes between Bodø and Narvik and 3 hexes between Narvik and Tromsø is pretty correct. Now it's only 2 hexes between Narvik and Tromsø.

I guess one reason for this is that the coast line north of Narvik except the newly drawn Lofoten and Vesterålen may have some minor mistakes. But it's not very big mistakes meaning they HAVE TO be redrawn.

I think the map of Norway is now starting to look really pretty. The lakes in northern Sweden look very nice now too. So keep up the great work Froonp. [:)] I feel we are getting closer and closer to finalizing the Scandinavian map area and can move on to another map area.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 10:46:49 PM)

Nils, is this as you wanted ?
As a note, the lake you talk about south of Stockholm is the sea in WiF FE. The hexside south of Stockholm are all sea hexsides, not lake hexsides.

I personaly do not like it, because this "lake" south of Stockholm has to be stretch far to the west to show it as it is in reality relatively to Hjälmaren.
This makes the area quite messing, for little realism added.
This is what I call a step too far.
WiFzening the Hjälmaren as part of the "Lake" south of Stockholm is better for me.

I also redrew Vänern and Vättern more like you drew them.

Edit : Deleted the picture since I put it in post #141.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 10:52:03 PM)

Here is what the map show in the area.
Edit : Deleted the picture since I put it in post #141.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 10:58:36 PM)

In the center, reality, on the left, as it is, on the right, as Nils wants it.


[image]local://upfiles/10447/56CDC4C2C88B4580A6F569B12FC076AB.jpg[/image]



Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 11:09:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Literally it means "son of" as does "ovitch" and "ovna" in Russian (for men and women respectively). However both my father and his father were named Oscar. I do not know when (or indeed, even if) the naming custom changed.


The Russian suffixes -itch -vitch or -ovitch mean son of. And the suffixes -evna or -ovna mean daughter of. The Russians use this as a middle name. For example:

Pyotr Ilyitch Tchaikovsky means Peter son of Ilya Tchaikovsky. Tchaikovsky is the family name and Ilyitch is the patronymical.

Mariya Yuryevna Sharapova. It means Maria daughter of Yuriy Sharapov.

Notice that Russian female family names have female endings -a after -ev or -ov or -aya when the name ending of the male family name ends with -iy. -aya replaces -iy or -y. For example the wife of Tchaikovsky would be Tchaikovskaya if she took the family name of her husband.

Non Russian family names have different rules for endings etc.

I can only think of another country using different endings for family names for men and women and that is Iceland. Vigdis Finbogadottir means Vigdis, daughter of Finboga.

Norway have a lot of names with the suffix -sen. It comes from son of and is the same as the Swedish suffix -son. Denmark also use the suffix -sen. I think that the family named truly showed the name of your father (like a patronymic), but it doesn't anymore. The family name stays the same from generation to generation.

Strange today for many foreigners is that many Norwegian women take the family name of their husband and KEEP their family name too, thus creating a double family name. For example: Maria Pettersen would marry Tore Jensen. Then she would take the name Maria Pettersen Jensen.

Or the woman may even choose to keep their family name without adding the family name of their husbands.

I have even heard examples that the man takes the family name of the woman too. Either in combination with his own (to give them equal family names) or instead of his own family name. I started my gaming community as a student in Trondheim and two gamers who fell in love and got married decided their family name by rolling 1d20 to decide. The woman won and they both have now only her family name. So it's a lot 1d20 can be used to decide. [;)]

Norway had no tradition to give names to the profession of the person, like what was common in Britain, USA and Germany. Smith, Taylor, Carpenter etc. In German Bauer (farmer), Schumacher (shoemaker), Fischer (fisherman).

So your surname of Håkanson doesn't indicate today your father's name was Håkan. Family names stay the same now within the family.




Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 11:13:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

In the center, reality, on the left, as it is, on the right, as Nils wants it.

[image]local://upfiles/10447/56CDC4C2C88B4580A6F569B12FC076AB.jpg[/image]


I think the one to the right looks just excellent. [:)]



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 11:15:37 PM)

Also, I prefer the V & V lakes as I drew them in the latest version. I think they are more faithfull to reality, and so as Steve, I change my vote to NO for extending the Vättern 1 hexside, as I can manage to make it appear longer without using an hexisde, just drawing it in the hex.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 11:28:51 PM)

You know, I like both variations. I have a slight preference for the one on the right (the most recent) but I see nothing especially awful about the previous map for this area. Good arguments can be made for both translations of the terrain into the game map.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 11:32:50 PM)

Borger,

Thanks for the stuff on the names. I did know that 'ovna' meant "daughter of". That's from all the Russian plays and novels I read when I was younger (Dostoevsky, Turgenev, Tolstoy). But the variations from Iceland were news to me.



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 11:35:25 PM)

Here is the status on the votes as of tonight (France). The proposals who were at 100% NO or 100% YES were excluded for clarity. The V& V proposals had 100% to add an hexside to Vättern, but the latest drawing shows that it may be better to just draw it longer without adding an hexside, so I do not put it to the votes again.
I underline the proposals for which only few people voted, for easy reference.

Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
City / Finland

Gothenburg (41,38) (Toed) : Renammed Göteborg.
3 Voters : 33 % YES, 67 % NO.
City, Minor Port /

Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Country / Finland

Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Country / Finland

Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) : Become Russian. No more Finnish borderlands.
5 Voters : 60 % YES, 40 % NO.
Country / Finland

Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove.
5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Lake Mjøsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) : Add.
4 Voters : 75 % YES, 25 % NO.
Lake / Norway

Hjälmaren (39,41 NW) (ullern) : Add. Need changing the hex west of Stockholm All Sea hexside
5 Voters : 60 % YES, 40 % NO.
Lake /

Boden Fortified (27,46) (Toed) : Fortify hex all directions
5 Voters : 80 % YES, 20 % NO.
Fortification / Sweden

Boden (27,46) (Borger) : Renamme Luleå (Boden) (Lulea).
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Minor Port / Sweden

Bodø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Kirkenes (21,51) (ullern) : Add. For supply reasons.
4 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Tromsø (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons.
6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO.
Minor Port / Norway

Turku (37,46) (Borger) : Add. Second largest Finnish city.
6 Voters : 67 % YES, 33 % NO.
Minor Port / Finland

Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) : Move 1 hex SE.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Resource / Sweden

Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain.
4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) : Move the ice 1 hex SE. This glacier should be placed close to Swedish border.
5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO.
Terrain / Norway

Sea Zone Boundary North Sea - Norwegian Sea (33,34) (ullern) : Go to hex (33,34), halfway between Trondheim & Bergen
2 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO.
Sea Zone /



Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 11:44:30 PM)

quote:

Norway have a lot of names with the suffix -sen. It comes from son of and is the same as the Swedish suffix -son. Denmark also use the suffix -sen. I think that the family named truly showed the name of your father (like a patronymic), but it doesn't anymore. The family name stays the same from generation to generation.

Hey Borger, so this means you are "Borger, son of Borger" [:D] [:D]



Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/8/2006 12:27:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Norway have a lot of names with the suffix -sen. It comes from son of and is the same as the Swedish suffix -son. Denmark also use the suffix -sen. I think that the family named truly showed the name of your father (like a patronymic), but it doesn't anymore. The family name stays the same from generation to generation.

Hey Borger, so this means you are "Borger, son of Borger" [:D] [:D]


Yep. [:D]

But in my family we have a tradition of letting the first name of the first born son
alternate between Anders and Borger. My father's name Ander and my grandfather's
name was Borger. His father's name was Anders etc. So the big pressure is on me
to continue the tradition to name my first son Anders. But I have disappointed my mother
by not giving them any grandchildren. [;)] So maybe the tradition ends with me. [X(]

Well, my oldest sister has 2 children and her son is called Andreas (almost Anders) so maybe they're satisfied with that. I hope.



Ullern -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/8/2006 2:52:34 AM)

Actually Patrice, you took it one step further than I did, I was drawing just to see how it mapped, and did not suggest any solution really, except that I voted yes for an earlier made suggestion. But I think you did get it quite pretty there.

To sum up the changes you made:
A) move the rail line one hex
B) put on Hjälmaren lake
C) delete one strait hex side from the Stockholm area.

I am not sure that the last change is needed. I might even think it is better with the strait back on. But the rest stays the way Patrice did it.

I want to hear what c92nichj thinks before I am decided, because he was the one who brought this up, and he seemed to have some knowledge on the matter.

There is one thing though: and that is for both the grapichs artists and Patrice: when lakes or coastal are drawn into a hex where they don't affect movment then they should be made to go less than halfway into the hex. That is a very good rule of thumb, which there are a few ok exceptions too, but as a general rule is good. Example to use of the rule is the western part of the fjord from Stockholm on the picture Patrice made above. When I started to think about it, I suddenly was unsure of wheter Patrice ment that there was an all sea hexside on the this hex (possibly he forgot to add the straight) or if the fjord drawn there don't hamper movement at all. That's gonna stay confusing unless the size of that fjord is reduced.




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