RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion

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Manic Inertia -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 4:17:29 PM)
Hi Ullern. Let me start by stating that; I have no idea how to create or edit maps, so my thoughts and comments should be viewed with that in mind, and the maps above are fantastic, awesome, brilliant, and have fired my enthusiasm for MWiF beyond where it already was, which is some acheivement, let me tell you! However, with respect, I wonder whether all that superb detail is going to be potentially confusing, particularly all the tiny islands off the norwegian coast: the straits hexsides seem somehow lost amidst all that detail, and where I have no doubt that the changes to the rail lines are extremely well informed (and consequently a very good idea), the fine detailing of the coasts might be better if it remains a little more simplified.

c92nichj -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 4:54:44 PM)
To add a lake to the map it should atleast be big enough to cover a hexside otherwise it does not have any impact on gameplay, Hjälmaren probably is big enough for that but I doubt that Siljan, Mjösa or Femunden is big enough. See below a picture of the lakes. [image]local://upfiles/15172/7AC9317B560043C1A59FF6B222A534EC.gif[/image]

Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 5:02:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: c92nichj To add a lake to the map it should atleast be big enough to cover a hexside otherwise it does not have any impact on gameplay, Hjälmaren probably is big enough for that but I doubt that Siljan, Mjösa or Femunden is big enough. See below a picture of the lakes. [image]local://upfiles/15172/7AC9317B560043C1A59FF6B222A534EC.gif[/image] That is true, but look at the number of lakes in Finland and northern Sweden. I think they are oversized and maybe too many. But I know they may be placed there for game purposes. Hampering those 4MP inf units etc. Mjøsa can easily prevent movement east-west along 1 hex side. It's about 120 km long and definitely wide enough that you can't place a bridge (during WW2) to cross.

JagdFlanker -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 6:15:00 PM)
had these in my 'map collection' so i figured i'd post them just in case they can be of any help to the discussion. great job! [image]local://upfiles/9586/C7BDA92305CF4615BBBB26C6D60ED5B3.gif[/image]

JagdFlanker -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 6:16:20 PM)
and... [image]local://upfiles/9586/5507D3A9D6FE4D9A9B9CBA7C959CB6F0.gif[/image]

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 6:24:05 PM)
quote: had these in my 'map collection' so i figured i'd post them just in case they can be of any help to the discussion. great job! I have these maps too (post #94) in my own 'map collection' too [:D] I used the one to the right to draw the coastlines that Nills (ullern) showed here to you (post #88). My opinion is that those new coastlines I drew are far far far more right than the first ones. Also, Manic Inertia wrote : quote: However, with respect, I wonder whether all that superb detail is going to be potentially confusing, particularly all the tiny islands off the norwegian coast: the straits hexsides seem somehow lost amidst all that detail, and where I have no doubt that the changes to the rail lines are extremely well informed (and consequently a very good idea), the fine detailing of the coasts might be better if it remains a little more simplified. I did this this way for my pleasure only. The graphic artist will do it the way he sees fit. I suppose he will use inspiration from my coastlines to save times, but I think he'll redrawn them completely.

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 6:35:54 PM)
quote: To add a lake to the map it should atleast be big enough to cover a hexside otherwise it does not have any impact on gameplay, Hjälmaren probably is big enough for that but I doubt that Siljan, Mjösa or Femunden is big enough. See below a picture of the lakes. An hex is between 70 to 100 km from side to side, depending on the place. In Scandinavia, it is closer to 70 km per hex. So, a lake to be placed on the map should be as long as the lengh of an hexside of an hexagon measuring about 75-80 km across. I did not calculate how long this makes, but I think that a 50-60 km long lake (Femunden as I seem to measure in on Google Earth) can be on the map to cover 1 hexside. I don't known where Hjälmaren or Siljan are, but I'm ready to make them to the map if they are long enough and if it is possible given the rest of the things that are on their place on the map.

Ullern -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 7:15:30 PM)
I completetly agree with everything said about lakes above, also Nicklas' comments really. Because it's just so easy for a Norwegian to want to have both Mjøsa and Femunden on the map. I vont cast any vote. But Patrice comments made me think of another way to measure size of lakes, that are maybe just as relevant: How long are the lakes? (Ie. what chance that they block an axis of advance.) Here is what I found: Femunden 55 km Mjøsa 90 km Vättern 130 km Hjälmaren 70 km Siljan 40 km Vänern I didn't measure beacuse it so unbelivably big

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 8:57:57 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: ullern I completetly agree with everything said about lakes above, also Nicklas' comments really. Because it's just so easy for a Norwegian to want to have both Mjøsa and Femunden on the map. I vont cast any vote. But Patrice comments made me think of another way to measure size of lakes, that are maybe just as relevant: How long are the lakes? (Ie. what chance that they block an axis of advance.) Here is what I found: Femunden 55 km Mjøsa 90 km Vättern 130 km Hjälmaren 70 km Siljan 40 km Vänern I didn't measure beacuse it so unbelivably big I agree the the length of the lake is more important than its surface area. Also the shape and placement. If you look at the map posted earlier showing German troop movements, it is clear they went around Mjøsa to the east and west. Lakes are really only on the map for 2 purposes: (1) to make it pretty, and (2) to affect game play. For the latter, it is a question of for which hexsides is movement prevented, or for very large lakes, an entire hex becoming a lake hex.

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 9:04:02 PM)
quote: Hjälmaren 70 km Siljan 40 km Where are those lakes ?

Toed -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 9:26:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp quote: Hjälmaren 70 km Siljan 40 km Where are those lakes ? Borrowed one of the maps and put the names in hope it helps. [image]local://upfiles/21856/0A0E37BFFD11483895CDCCA7B8F4CA74.gif[/image]

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 9:28:10 PM)
Here is what the map looks like, with the modification unanimously adopted (well, I also changed Karlsrona, even if it is not at 100% YES), and the latest proposal of ullern (with the railway to Bergen & Alpine hexsides slightly modified), and with the proposal for the Sea Area Boundary between the North Sea and the Norwegian Sea. [image]local://upfiles/10447/AEC7D7C6F4C441D2AC170870D5A29EAA.jpg[/image]

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 9:30:56 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Toed Borrowed one of the maps and put the names in hope it helps. [image]local://upfiles/21856/0A0E37BFFD11483895CDCCA7B8F4CA74.gif[/image] Yes, it helps. Unfortunately, Hjälmaren cannot be placed, because either it will connect to the Vättern, or the the lake / water area south of Stockholm. On the 3rd hexside there is the railway. Siljan is too small. But I'm ok to add it if you all want it.

Zorachus99 -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 9:43:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp Yes, it helps. Unfortunately, Hjälmaren cannot be placed, because either it will connect to the Vättern, or the the lake / water area south of Stockholm. On the 3rd hexside there is the railway. Siljan is too small. But I'm ok to add it if you all want it. How about moving the rail one hex west and put Hjalmaren on the hexside between the coase and lake there? Can Siljan be a river hexside with a lake graphic? The effect would be close to what you want...

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 9:48:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Zorachus99 quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp Yes, it helps. Unfortunately, Hjälmaren cannot be placed, because either it will connect to the Vättern, or the the lake / water area south of Stockholm. On the 3rd hexside there is the railway. Siljan is too small. But I'm ok to add it if you all want it. How about moving the rail one hex west and put Hjalmaren on the hexside between the coase and lake there? Great idea !! I don't understand what the "coase" is, but I suppose you meant to put the Hjälmaren on the hexside where the rail was before being moved to the hex to the west. What do others think ?

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 9:59:20 PM)
Here is the status of the votes, having removed those who are added to the map above already. Tampere (35,47) (Borger) : Add. Third largest city. 6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO. City / Finland Finnish Borderlands 1a (33,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands. 5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO. Country / Finland Finnish Borderlands 1b (34,52) (Borger) : Become Finnish. No more Finnish borderlands. 5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO. Country / Finland Finnish Borderlands 1c (33,54) (Borger) : Become Russian. No more Finnish borderlands. 5 Voters : 60 % YES, 40 % NO. Country / Finland Lake Femunden (34,38 E) (Borger) : Remove. 5 Voters : 40 % YES, 60 % NO. Lake / Norway Lake Mjøsa (Mjosa) (36,38 E, NE) (Borger) : Add. 4 Voters : 75 % YES, 25 % NO. Lake / Norway NEW Lake Hjälmaren (39,41 NW) (c92nichj) : Add. 1 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO. Lake / Boden Fortified (27,46) (Toed) : Fortify hex all directions 5 Voters : 80 % YES, 20 % NO. Fortification / Sweden Boden (27,46) (Borger) : Renamme Luleå (Lulea). 6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO. Minor Port / Sweden Bodø (Bodo) (26,41) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons. 6 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO. Minor Port / Norway Kirkenes (21,51) (ullern) : Add. For supply reasons. 4 Voters : 0 % YES, 100 % NO. Minor Port / Norway Tromsø (Tromso) (21,46) (Borger) : Add. For supply reasons. 6 Voters : 83 % YES, 17 % NO. Minor Port / Norway Turku (37,46) (Borger) : Add. Second largest Finnish city. 6 Voters : 67 % YES, 33 % NO. Minor Port / Finland Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 2 (24,45) (c92nichj) : Move 1 hex SE. 5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO. Resource / Sweden Clear hex (Resource) (40,35) (ullern) : Change to Mountain. 4 Voters : 50 % YES, 50 % NO. Terrain / Norway Glacier Svartisen (26,41) (Borger) : Move the ice 1 hex SE. This glacier should be placed close to Swedish border. 5 Voters : 20 % YES, 80 % NO. Terrain / Norway The mods who were made are : Gothenburg Vänern Vättern Karlskrona Railroad Gothenburg-Stockholm Iron ore of Gällivare & Kiruna 1 Strait from Copenhagen to Malmo Strait from Helsingor (NW Copenhagen) to Helsingborg (NW Malmo) Clear hex (Røros, east of lake) 2 Clear hex (Finnmark) Coast south of Vaasa 2 Mountain hex 35,37 Changed to Forest.

Toed -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 10:11:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp NEW Lake Hjälmaren (39,41 NW) (c92nichj) : Add. 1 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO. Lake / I would have to vote No. Seems to me that Mälaren (the lake west of Stockholm) and Hjälmaren are already represented as one lake on current map. Not perfect but better than this movement in my opinion. I have one more suggestion. How about naming Gothenburg by its Swedish name of Göteborg. Seems to fit in with the usage of åäö in other Nordic names.

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 10:29:16 PM)
quote: I would have to vote No. Seems to me that Mälaren (the lake west of Stockholm) and Hjälmaren are already represented as one lake on current map. Not perfect but better than this movement in my opinion. Humm, you may be right, and adding Hjälmaren in the place where the railway was if moved west is not as good as I thought initialy.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/6/2006 11:01:19 PM)
Removing those with 100% No is worth doing too. On renaming Boden, this is only text, with no effect on game play. So let's call it "Luleå (Boden)" putting both names on the map. There's nothing else happening up there so it doesn't create clutter.

Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 11:31:08 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Toed I have one more suggestion. How about naming Gothenburg by its Swedish name of Göteborg. Seems to fit in with the usage of åäö in other Nordic names. If we do this the we have to change the spelling to native language for a lot of cities. To name a few: * Copenhagen => København * Munich => München * Nuremberg => Nürnberg * Cologne => Köln * Moscow => Moskva * Warsaw => Warszawa * Vienna => Wien * Prague => Praha I guess you get my point. So I think we can use the English spelling of the city if such a name exists. For many of the smaller Nordic cities there simply are no English spelling. What they simply do is to make the ø (ö) become o, æ (ä) become a or e and å become a. For example Malmo instead of Malmö, Tromso instead of Tromsø, Bodo instead of Bodø, Alesund instead of Ålesund. I think we can live with those minor "mistakes". I don't know if all people can read Scandinavian letters with the Windows Western European (ISO encoding or some of the other encodings. If the answer is yes then we can easily write Tromsø, but if some players see the ? sign or some other strange letter instead of the ø then we should write Tromso so we ensure the name is readable to everybody. I can't answer this question because I use an encoding showing the Scandinavian letters correctly. Our main focus should be to make those cities readable for every player and make every player have a feeling of where this city is located. I think a lot of people know Copenhagen, but then maybe don't know the local København. So if they see a local city they have never heard about before they may start wondering if it's the same as the city they know in the area. So I feel we can easily use the English spelling for the cities on the MWIF map. I'm so used to them from every wargame I've played so won't mind. [;)]

Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 11:37:57 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Toed quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp NEW Lake Hjälmaren (39,41 NW) (c92nichj) : Add. 1 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO. Lake / I would have to vote No. Seems to me that Mälaren (the lake west of Stockholm) and Hjälmaren are already represented as one lake on current map. Not perfect but better than this movement in my opinion. I have one more suggestion. How about naming Gothenburg by its Swedish name of Göteborg. Seems to fit in with the usage of åäö in other Nordic names. Maybe we can try an alternative way. * We remove the NW hexside of lake Mälaren in the hex 1xNE of the port Norrköping. We also remove the strait arrows. * Now lake Hjälmaren can be placed in the NE hexside in the hex 1xNW of the port Norrköping. I think lake Mälaren is maybe too long and by doing this we have room to add lake Hjälmaren. Is this a good idea? Here is some interesting information about lake Mälaren: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1494949 It was earlier a salt water fjord and only turned into a lake during the 12th century.

Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 11:47:58 AM)
quote: NEW Lake Hjälmaren (39,41 NW) (c92nichj) : Add. 1 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO. Lake / I vote YES to this if we make lake Mälaren 1 hexside smaller. quote: Boden Fortified (27,46) (Toed) : Fortify hex all directions 5 Voters : 80 % YES, 20 % NO. Fortification / Sweden I vote YES to this. Will the hex then be called Luleå / Boden? I fort here could help Sweden defend against an attack from Finnish territory.

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 11:52:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen quote: ORIGINAL: Toed quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp NEW Lake Hjälmaren (39,41 NW) (c92nichj) : Add. 1 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO. Lake / I would have to vote No. Seems to me that Mälaren (the lake west of Stockholm) and Hjälmaren are already represented as one lake on current map. Not perfect but better than this movement in my opinion. I have one more suggestion. How about naming Gothenburg by its Swedish name of Göteborg. Seems to fit in with the usage of åäö in other Nordic names. Maybe we can try an alternative way. * We remove the NW hexside of lake Mälaren in the hex 1xNE of the port Norrköping. We also remove the strait arrows. * Now lake Hjälmaren can be placed in the NE hexside in the hex 1xNW of the port Norrköping. I think lake Mälaren is maybe too long and by doing this we have room to add lake Hjälmaren. Is this a good idea? Here is some interesting information about lake Mälaren: http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1494949 It was earlier a salt water fjord and only turned into a lake during the 12th century. I think the best is to leave it as it is [:)].

Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 11:53:12 AM)
I also vote YES to move Bergen and the rail line to Bergen the way it's shown on the latest MWIF map of Scandinavia. Now the coast lines look really nice. Some of the tiny islands could maybe be removed, but besides that I think the look of the fjords there are very good. It's so good I hope a similar great job could be done to the look of the coast lines further north in Norway (without changing the terrain in the hexes). I think particularly about the area from Trondheim to Narvik and the Lofoten and Vesterålen area north west of Narvik. It is possible to have a try and post the new coast lines here for us to enjoy? [:)]

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 11:55:58 AM)
In the sum up of votes yesterdays I forgot one : NEW Sea Zone Boundary North Sea - Norwegian Sea () (ullern) : Go to hex (33,34), halfway between Trondheim & Bergen. 2 Voters : 100 % YES, 0 % NO. Sea Zone /

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 12:01:55 PM)
quote: I also vote YES to move Bergen and the rail line to Bergen the way it's shown on the latest MWIF map of Scandinavia. Now the coast lines look really nice. Some of the tiny islands could maybe be removed, but besides that I think the look of the fjords there are very good. Thanks for the comment. I agree for the tiny islands, I used too much the copy paste feature [:D]. quote: It's so good I hope a similar great job could be done to the look of the coast lines further north in Norway (without changing the terrain in the hexes). I think particularly about the area from Trondheim to Narvik and the Lofoten and Vesterålen area north west of Narvik. It is possible to have a try and post the new coast lines here for us to enjoy? I would love too. But I have troubles finding a map simple enough to re-draw in onthe MWiF map. A map simple enough for me is for example the one posted on post #94. I used the one on the right to make the Kristiansand to Trondheim coasts. Would the one of post #94 on the left would be good enough for the coastlines ?

Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 12:05:52 PM)
I also wonder if the lake in northern Sweden (just south of the resources) is maybe too big. Lake Hornavan? It covers 4 hexsides and seems to be bigger than even lake Vänern and lake Vättern. That can't be true. Look at this link for a map of these lakes in northern Sweden: http://www.map-of-sweden.co.uk/map-of-norrbotten.htm I know the Mercator distortion is bigger here and therefore it can look bigger than it is. But I propose to make the lake look thinner similar to the other lakes in the north of Sweden and maybe remove north-westernmost hexside that crosses the Norwegian border. Then you have a 3 hexside lake that is still quite big. If it's drawn a bit thinner then it doesn't look so dominant. What do you think? Is it just my eyes deceiving me or has the hexgrid disappeared inside the Russian lake Onega and in the NW corner of lake Ladoga?

Froonp -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 12:16:22 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen I also wonder if the lake in northern Sweden (just south of the resources) is maybe too big. Lake Hornavan? It covers 4 hexsides and seems to be bigger than even lake Vänern and lake Vättern. That can't be true. Look at this link for a map of these lakes in northern Sweden: http://www.map-of-sweden.co.uk/map-of-norrbotten.htm I know the Mercator distortion is bigger here and therefore it can look bigger than it is. But I propose to make the lake look thinner similar to the other lakes in the north of Sweden and maybe remove north-westernmost hexside that crosses the Norwegian border. Then you have a 3 hexside lake that is still quite big. If it's drawn a bit thinner then it doesn't look so dominant. I may have drew the lakes of Sweden and Finland a bit too wide, but this is partly because I wanted to cover the underlying Lake hexside graphic. also, if I drew if slimer, I would have benn obliged to follow more closely the hexsides, and the lake would look too angular. I hope the graphic artist will come up with something better. quote: Is it just my eyes deceiving me or has the hexgrid disappeared inside the Russian lake Onega and in the NW corner of lake Ladoga? Yes, I do not bother to try to put an hexagonal grid on the lake I paint. They will be there on the MWiF final map, but on my drew maps I do not take the time to do this. Drawing the coastlines from Trondheim to Kristiansand took mea nearly 2 hours of drawing erasing drawing erasing. But I'm very happy of te result.

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 12:19:41 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen quote: ORIGINAL: Toed I have one more suggestion. How about naming Gothenburg by its Swedish name of Göteborg. Seems to fit in with the usage of åäö in other Nordic names. If we do this the we have to change the spelling to native language for a lot of cities. To name a few: * Copenhagen => København * Munich => München * Nuremberg => Nürnberg * Cologne => Köln * Moscow => Moskva * Warsaw => Warszawa * Vienna => Wien * Prague => Praha I guess you get my point. So I think we can use the English spelling of the city if such a name exists. For many of the smaller Nordic cities there simply are no English spelling. What they simply do is to make the ø (ö) become o, æ (ä) become a or e and å become a. For example Malmo instead of Malmö, Tromso instead of Tromsø, Bodo instead of Bodø, Alesund instead of Ålesund. I think we can live with those minor "mistakes". I don't know if all people can read Scandinavian letters with the Windows Western European (ISO encoding or some of the other encodings. If the answer is yes then we can easily write Tromsø, but if some players see the ? sign or some other strange letter instead of the ø then we should write Tromso so we ensure the name is readable to everybody. I can't answer this question because I use an encoding showing the Scandinavian letters correctly. Our main focus should be to make those cities readable for every player and make every player have a feeling of where this city is located. I think a lot of people know Copenhagen, but then maybe don't know the local København. So if they see a local city they have never heard about before they may start wondering if it's the same as the city they know in the area. So I feel we can easily use the English spelling for the cities on the MWIF map. I'm so used to them from every wargame I've played so won't mind. [;)] Thereby explaining why my last name is spelled Hokanson.

Peter Stauffenberg -> RE: Modifications to MWiF Scandinavia Map portion (8/7/2006 12:41:18 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Froonp I would love too. But I have troubles finding a map simple enough to re-draw in onthe MWiF map. A map simple enough for me is for example the one posted on post #94. I used the one on the right to make the Kristiansand to Trondheim coasts. Would the one of post #94 on the left would be good enough for the coastlines ? The eastern map of post #94 is definitely good enough to draw the terrain up to Trondheim and little bit further. I found another map of Norway you may use to draw the coast lines further north. It's embedded into this message. Here is the link if you want the original map: http://www.lib.utexas.edu/maps/europe/norway_pol96.jpg [image]local://upfiles/19891/94CF9B1C327A4F9AB2C55DE80907123E.jpg[/image]

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