Mixed order upgrade

Matrix Games Forums

Forums Register Login Photo Gallery Member List Search Calendars FAQ

My Profile Inbox Address Book My Subscription My Forums Log Out

Mixed order upgrade

View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest

Users viewing this topic: none

Printable Version

All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Napoleonics] >> Crown of Glory >> Mixed order upgrade

Page: [1]

Message

<< Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Mixed order upgrade - 8/17/2006 10:07:36 PM

carburo

Posts: 108
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

IIRC from a previous discussion, the follow-up charge from the mixed order upgrade wasn�t supposed to allow you to displace the enemy unit, nor should it cause your unit to become disordered after the charge. I�m playing France again after installing the patch and I�m finding that if I fire to an adjacent unit and get the opportunity charge my infantry frequently gets out of position and disordered.

Was the upgrade changed in the last patch?

Post #: 1

RE: Mixed order upgrade - 8/19/2006 10:53:38 PM

gdpsnake

Posts: 786
Joined: 8/7/2000
From: Kempner, TX
Status: offline

yes,
This unfortunate feature one has no control over needs to be fixed. Perhaps the player should be asked: "Do you wish to opportunity charge?"
Speaking of opportunity, the main purpose of cav is to stop other cav charges - would love to see opportunity charges by friendly cav that can countercharge charging enemy cav and thus stop them if successful.

< Message edited by gdpsnake -- 8/19/2006 10:54:21 PM >

(in reply to carburo)

Post #: 2

RE: Mixed order upgrade - 8/20/2006 12:57:30 AM

carburo

Posts: 108
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

I'd love that cavalry couldn't make U turns when charging. It's especially annoying when they zigzag through your units to charge your only supply. The only way of protecting the caissons is to completely surround them with your units, which doesn�t make much sense to me.
A big penalty to cavalry for turning would be a good idea.

(in reply to gdpsnake)

Post #: 3

RE: Mixed order upgrade - 8/21/2006 11:42:28 PM

ericbabe

Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline

Cavalry can't charge caissons or artillery if they're adjacent to any of your infantry, so there's no need to totally surround a caisson to protect it.

A cavalry's actual charge is only considered to be the short distance from the adjacent hex. The horses would wear out if cavalry were charging throughout their entire movement. Cavalry, as all units, spend movement points whenever they change facing.

(in reply to carburo)

Post #: 4

RE: Mixed order upgrade - 8/22/2006 3:29:01 AM

carburo

Posts: 108
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

In my experience they can�t charge if the hex they are charging from is adjacent to one of your units, and you need at least two formed units to protect a caisson.

Yes, cavalry spends movement points to change facing; it's just that IMHO the penalty should be greater. A matter of taste I suppose. As it is now they can zigzag through your units to get to the caissons in the back.

BTW, was mixed order changed? IIRC, the charging unit wasn't supposed to either displace the enemy unit or get disordered.

(in reply to ericbabe)

Post #: 5

RE: Mixed order upgrade - 8/23/2006 7:24:22 AM

Hedgehog

Posts: 3
Joined: 7/26/2006
Status: offline

My experience is that while human players are not permitted to charge enemy artillery with an adjacent infanty unit, the AI operates a little looser.
ie: if hex faces are labelled A~>F, my artillery with an adjacent infantry to hex face A is still vulnerable to enemy cavalry charges vs, hex faces C~>E, B&F being protected. Likewise, if that artillery unit has two infantry units adjacent to hex faces A&E, the unit is vulnerable to a charge vs. face C.
While this has been irksome, I have learned to use artillery as bait to draw enemy cavalry into traps, where they can be dissected at leisure.

(in reply to carburo)

Post #: 6

RE: Mixed order upgrade - 8/23/2006 7:53:10 AM

Jakerson

Posts: 565
Joined: 8/15/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: gdpsnake

yes,
This unfortunate feature one has no control over needs to be fixed. Perhaps the player should be asked: "Do you wish to opportunity charge?"
Speaking of opportunity, the main purpose of cav is to stop other cav charges - would love to see opportunity charges by friendly cav that can countercharge charging enemy cav and thus stop them if successful.

I think too much control over units ruins the whole idea of game in this era all armies had big command and control problems. Charging after a volley was historical way to fight in this era and many times commaders charged even if their superior officer didn't agree them to charge.

In this era many commanders had no maps and no ability to see battlefield trough each other eyes and there is numerous real life examples at times when attack was ordered divisional and corps commanders had only vague idea where they actually should attack according to orders as they had no maps or maps where very poor quality. Sometimes army, corps and divisional commanders all had different version of totally outdated maps.

(in reply to gdpsnake)

Post #: 7

RE: Mixed order upgrade - 8/23/2006 8:24:27 AM

Russian Guard

Posts: 1251
Joined: 10/14/2005
Status: offline

In general I agree with you. It's my humble opinion that players often seek a level of control over their units that isn't remotely conceivable if we are trying at all to enact something of a simulation of battle of the period. It could easily be argued that we have way too much control as it is.

Now, having said that

I do dislike the idea that, movement points available, units with this upgrade ALWAYS attack after a volley, against adjacent disordered units, usually disordering themselves in the process. Any enemy cavalry in the vicinity then roars after the disordered unit, usually causing far more casualties to that unit than the preceding mixed order charge accomplished.

But as with most issues with CoG (notwithstanding the TCP/IP issue), I can easily live with it. This isn't a biggie (for me).

< Message edited by Russian Guard -- 8/23/2006 8:26:39 AM >

(in reply to Jakerson)

Post #: 8

RE: Mixed order upgrade - 8/24/2006 2:43:54 AM

carburo

Posts: 108
Joined: 7/8/2005
Status: offline

I was used to live with it too, until Turkey declared war on me. The Turks simply park an irregular cavalry, those you can disorder with a single volley, in front of your infrantry, and sit there. You then have two options: fire at them, get the opportunity charge, and watch your infantry swarmed by the rest of the Turkish army after getting disordered when charging, or simply wait and...

(in reply to Russian Guard)

Post #: 9

RE: Mixed order upgrade - 8/24/2006 2:57:34 PM

Clausel

Posts: 71
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline

I don't think the opportunity charge should be allowed against cavalry. Whilst there may have been a few exceptional historical examples for the period 1793-1815, surely most infantry then were very cautious, in terms of aggresssive movement (as distinct from firepower), when operating alone against cavalry. Instead they tended to rely on their own cavalry to counter-charge enemy mounted troops, even when the latter were disordered.

On reflection, its really charging that's ruled out rather than aggressive movement. Bold infantry frequently advanced aggressively before forming squares but even when they defeated cavalry through firepower and/or bayonet defence they usually couldn't risk charging - presumably for fear of other ordered enemy cavalry. If the infantry did advance it was usually in square or close column whilst cavalry threatened. Even on the occasions when infantry remained in line against cavalry - defence was the priority.

< Message edited by Clausel -- 8/24/2006 7:43:06 PM >

(in reply to carburo)

Post #: 10

RE: Mixed order upgrade - 8/30/2006 1:56:20 AM

General Lee

Posts: 29
Joined: 10/21/2005
Status: offline

so are you saying that if you have 2 divisions around the supply, then cavalry can't charge? Also, i have the same problem, with having a fully formed battleline, except for ,maybe 1 or 2 gaps and enemy cavalry pass through the gaps, past about 30,000 soldiers to get to my supply, without a scratch on them. Isn't there some kind of zone of control for infantry?

(in reply to Clausel)

Post #: 11

RE: Mixed order upgrade - 8/30/2006 2:06:37 AM

jimwinsor

Posts: 1076
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline

Yes there is movement-inhibiting ZOC in the game, but Cavalry can ignore infantry ZOC. But not Cav ZOC.

_____________________________

Streaming as "Grognerd" at https://www.twitch.tv/grognerd

(in reply to General Lee)

Post #: 12

RE: Mixed order upgrade - 8/30/2006 4:04:07 AM

Joram

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: General Lee

so are you saying that if you have 2 divisions around the supply, then cavalry can't charge? Also, i have the same problem, with having a fully formed battleline, except for ,maybe 1 or 2 gaps and enemy cavalry pass through the gaps, past about 30,000 soldiers to get to my supply, without a scratch on them. Isn't there some kind of zone of control for infantry?

What Jim said as well as the fact light infantry and irregular cavalry can also move through zone of control with some movement penalty. But they can get through. Also, you don't extend ZOC across rivers nor changes in elevation.

(in reply to General Lee)

Post #: 13