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Reinforcing Finnish StuGs with logs.

 
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Reinforcing Finnish StuGs with logs. - 7/26/2000 7:11:00 PM   
Musti

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Tampere, Finland
Status: offline 		It would be a nice feature to include finnish StuG's during Continuation War(1941-44)with log reinforced crew compartments. It was quite common and gave the StuG a little bit more protection. [This message has been edited by Musti (edited July 26, 2000).]

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- 7/26/2000 7:48:00 PM   
Schrubbery

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 7/14/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		This was also done by other troops as well. There are reports of Soviets adding logs to their T-34's. Also the standard procedure of Japanese arms industry was to build tanks of bamboo to save materiel, but that's irrelevant... Still, I wonder how useful those logs were. The extra weight slowed the vehicle down, and a mortar barrage might cripple the logs. As the game is concerned, it models skirts so I suppose it could do the logs as well.

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Post #: 2
- 7/26/2000 8:05:00 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Musti, in the forthcoming new Finnish OOB those logs have been taken into account by giving the tank a slightly thicker side hull armour. Also the front turret is thicker due to the concrete reinforcement. I don't think we should use skirts to simulate those logs as the effect of skirts is much more drastic, especially against shaped charges. As for extra weight, I doubt that couple hundred extra kilos on a 24-ton vehicle are very noticeable. Voriax

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Post #: 3
- 7/26/2000 8:29:00 PM   
Musti

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 7/26/2000
From: Tampere, Finland
Status: offline 		This is my first day using this forum(I'm a true greenie)and already I am surprised to see how eager people are to answer comments/answers made by an "outsider". I want to thank you for that. And then another issue: According to my sources and knowledge finnish troops didn't have the Lahti ATR during Winter War. Lahti ATR was taken into service in 1940, after the Winter War, which ended in March, 1940...So could you please make it a little bit more challenging to fight those russian tanks during 1939? Thank you.

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Post #: 4
- 7/26/2000 8:54:00 PM   
Voriax

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Musti: This is my first day using this forum(I'm a true greenie)and already I am surprised to see how eager people are to answer comments/answers made by an "outsider". I want to thank you for that. And then another issue: According to my sources and knowledge finnish troops didn't have the Lahti ATR during Winter War. Lahti ATR was taken into service in 1940, after the Winter War, which ended in March, 1940...So could you please make it a little bit more challenging to fight those russian tanks during 1939? Thank you.
We are usually kinda nice.... (evil ) Well, the new entry date for Lahti ATR will be April 1940. But on the other hand couple new AT-guns will appear during the Winter War timescale (25mm French gun, 20mm 'generic' gun to cover at least 3 different variants) Also the rifle squads will have molotovs and satchel charges so I guess it's up to you and your troop selection if you want to make it really challenging. Or fiddle with the preferences. Voriax ps. You will be surprised with the new Finnish OOB. Lots of interesting units. Actually so many interesting units that the OOB has very few free slots left!

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Post #: 5
- 7/26/2000 8:58:00 PM   
Musti

 

Posts: 19
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From: Tampere, Finland
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quote:

Well, the new entry date for Lahti ATR will be April 1940. But on the other hand couple new AT-guns will appear during the Winter War timescale (25mm French gun, 20mm 'generic' gun to cover at least 3 different variants)
You guys have really done your homework.
quote:

Also the rifle squads will have molotovs and satchel charges so I guess it's up to you and your troop selection if you want to make it really challenging. Or fiddle with the preferences. Voriax ps. You will be surprised with the new Finnish OOB. Lots of interesting units. Actually so many interesting units that the OOB has very few free slots left!
Thank you for showing an honouring interest in the tiny plot of land called Finland! [This message has been edited by Musti (edited July 26, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Musti (edited July 26, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Musti (edited July 26, 2000).]

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Post #: 6
- 7/26/2000 9:24:00 PM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Musti, on top of this frame/post you can see a small white box with a 'who?' text next to it. Click it Voriax

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Post #: 7
- 7/26/2000 10:27:00 PM   
Mac_MatrixForum


Posts: 295
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From: Espoo, Finland
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quote:

Originally posted by Voriax: Musti, on top of this frame/post you can see a small white box with a 'who?' text next to it. Click it
Yeah Thanks in advance to the people who have been working on the Finnish OOB. ------------------ Markku "Mac" Rontu "Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Sheridan in B5

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Post #: 8
- 7/27/2000 3:59:00 AM   
Schrubbery

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Voriax: Well, the new entry date for Lahti ATR will be April 1940.
Great, I was going to ask about these, as well as the 25 mm's, but looks like I forgot... Well, I'll rant about something else, then. How about 14 mm Boys AT rifle (14,0 pst.kiv/37)? Some 100 were received from UK in January 1940 and taken immediately to front line. Another 100 were received after war was over, and in December Germany (it's amazing what all those Brits left behind in Dunkerque) sold 200 more of these weapons.

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Post #: 9
- 7/27/2000 4:11:00 AM   
Voriax

 

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Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Schrubbery, you are in luck The OOB has both Finnish and Swedish inf.AT teams equipped with Boys AT-rifle (We added some basic Swedish infantry units to describe the volunteer troops during Winter War) Seriously the OOB has only about two dozen slots left out of 249! Guerillas, Jaegers, Ski troops, Coastal Arty, Panssarilaiva (Armoured coastal defence ship), so many variants of infantry units you'll be confused. Starting to drool already? Voriax ps. Also a warning to scenario makers. The OOB file was so cluttered we rearranged it, thus in scenarios made with current official OOB you'll end up having very strange units.

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Post #: 10
- 7/27/2000 5:04:00 AM   
Drake666

 

Posts: 313
Joined: 4/22/2000
Status: offline 		If you do this with the finnish you would have to do it with the other countries to. The US and brits often added spear tracks and sandbags to their tanks for extra armour. A lot better then trees. The Germans would often use their spear tracks for this to. One of the main reaosn this was done was to protect the tank from shaped charges.

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Post #: 11
- 7/27/2000 5:52:00 AM   
Voriax

 

Posts: 1719
Joined: 5/20/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Drake, that is up to the people who do the other OOB's. In Finnish OOB this is sort of 'easy' modification as there was only 59 of those Sturms in use and not all of them participated in battles because they arrived so late...I think most, if not all combat-ready vehicles were equipped with logs & concrete after initial fights in summer 1944. Also I believe one important use for those logs was to use them under tracks if tank gets stuck. I've seen many pics of those spare tracks, usually at the front hull. As for how much they add for the armour is another thing. Hmm..there was a pic somewhere where an add-on armour slab had actually turned an AP round inwards knocking out the tank. I guess the difference is that this concrete was an 'official' modification while track pieces etc are added by the crew and not all of them... Voriax

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Post #: 12
- 7/27/2000 9:02:00 AM   
albert

 

Posts: 13
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From: usa
Status: offline 		there were lots of different improvised types of armor. I believe skirts originally were an improv that german workshops created in reply to the bazooka. Also I believe I've seen photos of Finnish troops with some type of atr (Solothurns or Pzb39) in the winter war. it may be whatever the Swedes were using inlate 39.

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Post #: 13
- 7/27/2000 1:36:00 PM   
Schrubbery

 

Posts: 41
Joined: 7/14/2000
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Wonderful, Voriax! I'm already thinking of naming my firstling as SPWAW v3.0 (if it is a boy).
quote:

Originally posted by albert: Also I believe I've seen photos of Finnish troops with some type of atr (Solothurns or Pzb39) in the winter war. it may be whatever the Swedes were using inlate 39.
The only ATR in Winter War was the mentioned 14mm Boys, so it must be those. And they didn't arrive during the first month of war. It must be a curse or something, how Finland always gets AT weaponry after the Soviet attack has started: in 1944 Panzerfausts and 'Schrecks were ordered after Soviets had begun their large-scale offensive. Actually, now that Finnish Defence Forces have ordered Israeli-German Spike ATGM's, there's again the possibility that Russia attacks a month before they arrive.

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Post #: 14
- 7/27/2000 8:58:00 PM   
Seth

 

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From: San Antonio, TX USA
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quote:

Originally posted by Voriax: [B] Panssarilaiva (Armoured coastal defence ship), B]
The Vainamoinen? Pinch me, I must be dreaming! P.S. You should put your little cannon in

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Post #: 15
- 7/28/2000 3:26:00 AM   
Voriax

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Seth: The Vainamoinen? Pinch me, I must be dreaming! P.S. You should put your little cannon in
We are having problems with the Vainamoinen/Ilmarinen. In the weaponry department...how to accurate depict the arsenal of 4x10" guns, 8x105mm DPguns and 4x40mm and 8x20mm AA guns One each is the current solution. Such firepower would be murderous in the SPWAW scale... I think I'll leave that cannon to the makers of the SP:Medieval Voriax

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Post #: 16
- 7/30/2000 7:45:00 PM   
asaura

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Schrubbery: It must be a curse or something, how Finland always gets AT weaponry after the Soviet attack has started: in 1944 Panzerfausts and 'Schrecks were ordered after Soviets had begun their large-scale offensive.
Some 1700 'fausts and 300 'schrecks were received in spring '44, well before the attack. By March it was pretty obvious that a large attack was in the works, especially after the Soviets threw back the German siege of Leningrad. After the "4th Strategic Strike" of the Red Army began in East Karelia on June 10, Finland asked Germany for aid. On June 12, Hitler decided to help. On the same day, 110 'schrecks came in by plane and boats carrying 'fausts soon followed. By September, some 24 000 'fausts and 1550 'schrecks were delivered, mainly in the first two weeks of this final phase of the war. I believe the major problem with these weapons was not their availability, but the lack of training. Organized training in the Aunus secondary front did not start until July, well after most of the Karelian Isthmus and Viipuri were lost. Does anyone know how the available portable AT weapons were used in June '44, in East Karelia? I am aware of 'fausts in the battle of Ihantala in the last days of June, but how were they deployed?

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Post #: 17
- 7/30/2000 9:56:00 PM   
Schrubbery

 

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From: Finland
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quote:

Originally posted by asaura: Some 1700 'fausts and 300 'schrecks were received in spring '44, well before the attack.
Yes. Nobody just could imagine the scale of Soviet offensive, so that amount was way too small. The whole amount after April would have been sufficient for one German division only. In the Isthmus there was 700 Fausts and 150 Schrecks, with 10 88mm rockets each. ("Marskin Panssarintuhoojat")
quote:

Does anyone know how the available portable AT weapons were used in June '44, in East Karelia?
I think they were shot from the shoulder... äh, I don't know for sure what you mean.

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Post #: 18
- 7/31/2000 9:55:00 PM   
asaura

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Schrubbery: I think they were shot from the shoulder... äh, I don't know for sure what you mean.
I can imagine they were :) I meant their use as in organization. As the weapons were few, one would think that they were used in a special manner, since there weren't enough to just distribute them to the troops. "Marskin panssarintuhoojat" seems to refer to a special unit, is this so?

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Post #: 19
- 8/1/2000 3:47:00 AM   
Schrubbery

 

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From: Finland
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quote:

Originally posted by asaura: I meant their use as in organization. As the weapons were few, one would think that they were used in a special manner, since there weren't enough to just distribute them to the troops.
Let's see... "Panzerschreck detachment was created in the ATG company of every Infantry Regiment and Brigade. Panzerschreck detachments were still limited, and they didn't have enough weapons either." It doesn't say it straight here, but I think this 'detachment' means one platoon (close defence, lähitorjunta). And while these were namely Panzerschreck detachments, they also had the Fausts.
quote:

"Marskin panssarintuhoojat" seems to refer to a special unit, is this so?
No, it was just my reference above. A good book about the anti-tank training and warfare in 1918-45 by Erkki Käkelä, published this year, 500+ pages. I recommend, it has a lot of information about those nifty German weapons, but not only that. It also tells that in early 1944 it was suggested that Finland should buy Nashorn's, but Germans couldn't afford selling them. [This message has been edited by Schrubbery (edited July 31, 2000).]

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Post #: 20
- 8/2/2000 2:50:00 AM   
Pave

 

Posts: 35
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From: Espoo, Finland
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quote:

Originally posted by Voriax: Drake, that is up to the people who do the other OOB's. In Finnish OOB this is sort of 'easy' modification as there was only 59 of those Sturms in use and not all of them participated in battles because they arrived so late...
Only 30 of those were available for the fightings of the summer '44. 29 arrived too late. Of those 30, 6 were kept in stock at first. So in early June there were theoretically 24 availalable, except number 531-13 which was used for salvage, because of the lack of spare parts.
quote:

I think most, if not all combat-ready vehicles were equipped with logs & concrete after initial fights in summer 1944.
Lieutenant Talvitie suggested July 2, 1944 the addition of logs, tracks and and concrete (together with some other modifications). General Lagus later approved these modifications. So, no logs and concrete in Kuuterselkä, Tali or Ihantala, sorry.
quote:

Also I believe one important use for those logs was to use them under tracks if tank gets stuck.
At least that happened.
quote:

I've seen many pics of those spare tracks, usually at the front hull. As for how much they add for the armour is another thing. Hmm..there was a pic somewhere where an add-on armour slab had actually turned an AP round inwards knocking out the tank. I guess the difference is that this concrete was an 'official' modification while track pieces etc are added by the crew and not all of them...
I don't know. See what I wrote above. It seems that the track pieces belonged to the list, which was approved by Gen. Lagus. I checked the facts from the book "Laguksen rynnäkkötykit", by Erkki Käkelä. It seemed that even Finns had better APCR rounds("Panssariammus") in use, so why cannot them be supplied in larger quantities. In v2.3 German tanks have very few if any APCR rounds, which I think is not quite right. If you didn't guess already, I'm a Finn too. -- Pave PS. Actually my name is Paavo

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Post #: 21
- 8/3/2000 1:17:00 AM   
Voriax

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Pave: I checked the facts from the book "Laguksen rynnäkkötykit", by Erkki Käkelä.
Good book, I read it almost at once when it came out...unfortunately that was about two years ago...
quote:

It seemed that even Finns had better APCR rounds("Panssariammus") in use, so why cannot them be supplied in larger quantities. In v2.3 German tanks have very few if any APCR rounds, which I think is not quite right.
Afaik the term 'Panssariammus' refers to standard armour piercing round. If the word 'Panssarikranaatti' is used then it means standard AP-round with small explosive filler, like in most German AP rounds. As for the lack of APCR in German tanks...Germany got most of the tungsten (Wolfram) needed for the APCR rounds from Portugal and Spain. Early 1944 allies managed to put enough pressure to these nations that they stopped deliveries and Germany had to reserve whatever supplies it had to machining tools. So after late -44 the APCR ammo should be non-existent or very close so but setting it so would just mean new items to oob files. also prior that the supplies weren't that huge, so the current amounts of 4-5 rounds feel okay for me. Btw, Germany got about 3000 tons of Wolfram/year from these two countries...reserve some of this for tools and light bulbs and then you may be able to make estimates of how many APCR rounds were possible to build...some sources say that the annual need was 3500 tons and only the amount above that could be used in ammunition so..looks quite bad. Voriax

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Post #: 22
- 8/3/2000 3:55:00 AM   
Pave

 

Posts: 35
Joined: 7/11/2000
From: Espoo, Finland
Status: offline
quote:

Originally posted by Voriax: Afaik the term 'Panssariammus' refers to standard armour piercing round. If the word 'Panssarikranaatti' is used then it means standard AP-round with small explosive filler, like in most German AP rounds.
I got the impression that "panssarikranaatti" means AP and "panssariammus" APCR. The book has good diagaram pictures of four types (AP(?), APCR(?), HEAT and HE). The picture says that "panssariammus" had hard metal core (sub calibre). According to the ammunition list made in 1955, it was probably type A2373, but I believe this is a Finnish designation.
quote:

As for the lack of APCR in German tanks...Germany got most of the tungsten (Wolfram) needed for the APCR rounds from Portugal and Spain. Early 1944 allies managed to put enough pressure to these nations that they stopped deliveries and Germany had to reserve whatever supplies it had to machining tools. So after late -44 the APCR ammo should be non-existent or very close so but setting it so would just mean new items to oob files. also prior that the supplies weren't that huge, so the current amounts of 4-5 rounds feel okay for me.
Yes, true. I would be perfectly happy with 4-5 APCR rounds, but now Tiger has total 0 APCR rounds and situation is not much better with other tanks either. It seems that usually only TDs has APCR rounds, at least later in the war.
quote:

Btw, Germany got about 3000 tons of Wolfram/year from these two countries...reserve some of this for tools and light bulbs and then you may be able to make estimates of how many APCR rounds were possible to build...some sources say that the annual need was 3500 tons and only the amount above that could be used in ammunition so..looks quite bad.
I believe that they could have found use for much more than 3500 tons. I hope that 3000 tons is enough to make few APCR rounds appear in the SPWAW Tigers too. Pave

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Post #: 23
- 8/3/2000 4:25:00 AM   
Voriax

 

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From: Finland
Status: offline 		Hmm, for some reason I wasn't able to reply w/quote..it showed only a small part of Pave's post. well, the Armour Museum seems to think 'Panssariammus' means basic AP. At least their display item list says so. Also 'Kranaatti' tends to refer to something explosive, and explosive fillers in AP rounds were not that common, outside Germany. I remember that pic well, I actually scanned it back then and used it as reference in another argument...the problem is that the pic is taken from user manual from 1955, so it is also unknown whether the ammunition described is original German made or domestic production. I would be surprised if they supplied us with APCR that late in the war. And yes, there is lack of APCR in German tanks..but these is of course the solution: oobeditor Voriax

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Post #: 24
- 8/4/2000 3:21:00 AM   
Pave

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Voriax: Hmm, for some reason I wasn't able to reply w/quote..it showed only a small part of Pave's post.
Well, that's technology. You should know that and me too, since I'm from HUT
quote:

well, the Armour Museum seems to think 'Panssariammus' means basic AP. At least their display item list says so. Also 'Kranaatti' tends to refer to something explosive, and explosive fillers in AP rounds were not that common, outside Germany. I remember that pic well, I actually scanned it back then and used it as reference in another argument...the problem is that the pic is taken from user manual from 1955, so it is also unknown whether the ammunition described is original German made or domestic production. I would be surprised if they supplied us with APCR that late in the war.
Yes, "kranaatti" really sounds something explosive. I'm not sure are we talking about the same picture, but mine is saying "75mm saksalainen panssariammus (kovametalliytimellä)". I have no idea where the picture is taken from. Also the 1955 list gives an impression that only A2365 and A2366 are Finnish made and they are both HE rounds. The list also gives two "panssariammus" rounds and the other one has an extra note "(alikaliiperinen täyskaliiperilaukaus)". Let me point that in this matter I have to rely on the book only, since I have no other source and there might be some mistakes.
quote:

And yes, there is lack of APCR in German tanks..but these is of course the solution: oobeditor
I already used that for the T-43, but the problem is that then I have to have different versions of OOBs, if I want to play email batles. Pave P.S. My grandfather has 2x75mm and 3x37mm shells (cases). There are some markings on the bottom, but I can only read the year when they have been manufactured, the other markings are uknown to me. You don't happen to know how I could read them?

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Post #: 25
- 8/4/2000 4:32:00 AM   
Voriax

 

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From: Finland
Status: offline 		Pave, I think you hit the point. The term 'alikaliiperinen' (sub-calibre) is in parenthesis. So probably back then there was no finnish term for APCR, so they used the term 'Armour piercing, hardened metal core' to describe it. Btw it may also be possible that they produced those rounds for us if we supplied the metal. Kinda like the thing with Bristol Blenheim engine parts...Germans needed platinum before they were able to supply them, and they got the platinum from an old Russian coin we sent to them... As for the shell cases, you could write down those markings and show them to a collector. I know a few people that collect all kinds of ammunition and they might be able to help. I could ask them if you can send me pics of those markings. May take some weeks though. Voriax

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Post #: 26
- 8/21/2000 2:04:00 PM   
Mac_MatrixForum


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quote:

Originally posted by Pave: Well, that's technology. You should know that and me too, since I'm from HUT
Hell, you too? Well this doesn't really belong to this thread... Well, I'm quite satisfied with the APCR levels which basically means that I only expect AT-ammo. The penetration of "normal" AT rounds is what I look for in guns. ------------------ Markku "Mac" Rontu "Understanding is a three-edged sword, your side, their side and the truth." - Sheridan in B5

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Post #: 27
- 8/21/2000 6:42:00 PM   
Ilja Varha

 

Posts: 56
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From: Kouvola, Finland
Status: offline 		Finns had total of 2 Lahti ATRs in Winter War... maybe a too little number to add to OOB Well good that Finns look better now. I just loved the original SP1 Finn OOB It simply rocked. Just T-28 and Some infantry during winter war... Ilja

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Post #: 28
- 8/5/2000 3:06:00 AM   
Schrubbery

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Ilja Varha: Well good that Finns look better now. I just loved the original SP1 Finn OOB It simply rocked. Just T-28 and Some infantry during winter war...Ilja
Too bad the T-28 couldn't come into service during Winter War... someone had to first translate the operating manual from Russian. Actually, this is something else I'd like to point (it might have been corrected already, but I'll play safe). Finns seem to have two types of T-28's: T-28e available from January 1941 onwards, and T-28 (with no suffix) available from January 1940 onwards. What makes this really interesting, is that both are armed with 76,2mm gun, while in Soviet OOB only T-28 M40, available from February 1940 onwards, is armed with that gun. I was actually a bit surprised about this when playing a long campaign with Russians: my T-28's still had 45mm pieces in January but Finns had 76,2mm's! Maybe they stole some prototypes from Kubinka... Actually, the only Finnish tank engagement was with some 6-ton Vickers', which Russians won hands down in bad terrain. Just one more thing (and a minor one): the photo of six-ton Vickers is actually the photo of 8-ton Vickers. This kind of forgery has totally eaten away my belief in this game... (not really) I think in SP1 Finn OOB there was also the Renault FT-18. A real doomsday device, that tank was...

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Post #: 29
- 8/5/2000 3:16:00 AM   
Pave

 

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quote:

Originally posted by Voriax: Pave, I think you hit the point. The term 'alikaliiperinen' (sub-calibre) is in parenthesis. So probably back then there was no finnish term for APCR, so they used the term 'Armour piercing, hardened metal core' to describe it. Btw it may also be possible that they produced those rounds for us if we supplied the metal.
Hmm. Did we have so much tungsten back then?
quote:

Kinda like the thing with Bristol Blenheim engine parts...Germans needed platinum before they were able to supply them, and they got the platinum from an old Russian coin we sent to them...
Really? One coin? That's something I didn't know. Engines are not really my field, where did they need it? In catalyzers?
quote:

As for the shell cases, you could write down those markings and show them to a collector. I know a few people that collect all kinds of ammunition and they might be able to help. I could ask them if you can send me pics of those markings. May take some weeks though.
I can't send a photo since I don't have one(and the grandpa lives in Kouvola), but I have drawn a picture of the markings. I send it to you asap. I have to draw a gif first, because I don't have a scanner. Thanks. And Mac. It's a small world, isn't it? Pave

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(in reply to Musti)
Post #: 30
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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> Reinforcing Finnish StuGs with logs. Page: [1]
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