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RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 2:29:50 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		Hi Speedy

What you achieve with your subs should be an example for every Allied player and it´s what I fear the most as a Japanese player. Sure Faber didn´t do what he could do (fewer but bigger TFs or more hunter killer groups for example) but as you said you will still score.

In most of my PBEMs as Japanese I had the luck that my opponents stopped the sub war after they faced a couple of 6 ship hunter killer groups and a couple of daitais on patrol (not really many but enough to get a lot of spottings). To place the whole IJAAF on ASW patrol is odd to me.

The sub war is one of the most important actions of the Allied player and is often forgotten. 10 Japanese 16000 TK are worth their weight in gold so I would surely trade an US sub for every tanker I sink (and even with a good Japanese ASW tactic I won´t lose that many). Several AKs and APs and even escorts are just goodies besides the precious tankers.

If Japan loses only a third of it´s tankers then there won´t be an empire outproducing the US in first line planes. People are often complaining about the ability of a Japan, that conquered e.g. far more then historic, that´s able to produce more then historic but in the same moment those people forget about the need to sink the tankers. No tankers --> no oil --> less HI and supply --> fewer planes and because of the lack in supply fewer trained pilots (training pilots with ground attack missions takes a looot supply).

As I said, your performance is really impressive!

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Post #: 691
RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 2:35:16 PM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy


3. EXPERIENCED. I think this is one of the keys for me here. Through so many attacks and patrols my submarines are in the 70's/80's experience. I believe this is giving them a greater chance of attacking, hitting and evading his escorts in conjunction with SJ Radar.



radar is great benefit in both air and naval surface combat so i'm pretty sure it works for sub warfare too....

but i can't figure how did you train your sbs in the 70/80, or do they arrive with such high ratings?

I was looking at my subs exp ratings and VERY rarely (almost) never they got exp even afer succssful attacks on the enemy ships?


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Post #: 692
RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 2:40:02 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		He gets increased exp because he uses his boats correctly. Not letting them sit still for too long in the same hex, etc...

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Post #: 693
RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 3:13:51 PM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

He gets increased exp because he uses his boats correctly. Not letting them sit still for too long in the same hex, etc...


Why? Does it matter?

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Post #: 694
RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 3:32:43 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
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From: Denmark
Status: offline 		If a submarine sits still too long in the same hex, his detection factor goes up, making him a target for more ASW attacks, which can be counterproductive when it comes to gaining submarine experience.

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Post #: 695
RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 4:10:13 PM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline 		Oooh. Thanks for that. As I said elsewhere, my PBEM against Faber is the first time I've tried to control all my own subs.

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Post #: 696
RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 4:11:37 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		It's very easy to "forget" to do it properly, but it really is the way to gain maximum ROI for your boats.

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RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 4:48:26 PM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

If a submarine sits still too long in the same hex, his detection factor goes up, making him a target for more ASW attacks, which can be counterproductive when it comes to gaining submarine experience.


In short. What are you talking about?

quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk

but i can't figure how did you train your sbs in the 70/80, or do they arrive with such high ratings?

I was looking at my subs exp ratings and VERY rarely (almost) never they got exp even afer succssful attacks on the enemy ships?


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Post #: 698
RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 5:01:20 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		They do gain experience after successful attacks, but it takes a looooooooooooooong time...

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Post #: 699
RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 5:03:36 PM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline 		No XP for unsuccessful attack or surviving CD attacks? Thats a bit unfair. IMO any experience you can walk away from is a learning experience. So, were saying that a crew of a boat that operates for 2 years and never has a succesful attack learns nothing?

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Post #: 700
RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 5:11:24 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		A boat would not go operational for two years without a successful attack, so that's a moot point.

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RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 5:12:32 PM   
Onime No Kyo


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Status: offline 		Well, let's s'pose, then.

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Post #: 702
RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 5:29:29 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		If you just sail a boat around, it'll gain experience by itself, up to the national rating, if it's below that. If it sits still in port, then it shouldn't gain experience at all...

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RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 5:35:37 PM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
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Status: offline 		Whats the operational rating?

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Post #: 704
RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 5:44:25 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		"National", not "Operational" rating. But I messed that up; "National" is for LCU's. Never mind...

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RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 5:47:25 PM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline 		Oh. Sorry, I just skimmed it. I thought you meant that there's a minimum ops rating for subs similar to those for pilots that you can work up to just by virtue of untinuing to exist. But essentially we are still talking about the same thing. So is there one for subs?

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RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 5:57:29 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Onime No Kyo

Oh. Sorry, I just skimmed it. I thought you meant that there's a minimum ops rating for subs similar to those for pilots that you can work up to just by virtue of untinuing to exist. But essentially we are still talking about the same thing. So is there one for subs?


If you just sail around, the experience rating goes up slowly - there are maximum numbers depending on the type of ship involved - for instance, the experience rating for the cargo types has a very low maximum, while those for regular warships is something like 65 day/55 night (i don't recall the actual numbers, and it might vary by nationality). If you keep doing operations, the experience goes up above the "usual" maximums, so that a very experienced ship might have ratings in the 70's or above.

US subs usually did have night training, so their nighttime experience ratings tend to be not bad at the beginning of the war (unlike most US Surface ships). New ships (either sub or surface) start out with mediocre experience at best. Some ships are ships that are transferred from the Atlantic, and while new to the game, they are actually experienced crews, and the experience ratings TEND to reflect that.

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Post #: 707
RE: 22nd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 6:07:12 PM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline 		That's pretty much what I figured. At some point I thought the insinuation was that XP does not increase at all without succesful attacks.

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Post #: 708
23rd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 8:57:29 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Interesting discussion guys. Interesting.

As for training Pauk et al. It does happen but VERY SLOWLY. I will keep track of 2 new recruits from now on and see how they do. They are due in San Francisco in 5 days time - Picuda and another one.

I know for fact that Balao increased from 82 to 83 day experience ages ago when on patrol in the Lower Kuriles.

You have to bear in mind that some of these guys have been in the war on various patrols for 16 months (not all at sea all of the time of course)

There is no doubt about it that the 42 campaigns give you a MUCH better start than the 41 campaign - most subs have 60-70 starting experience compared to mid-50's in 41 campaign.

Most of my newly commissioned subs have 60-70 range but most of my actuive one are 68-80.

---------------

Maloelap received a last visit from South Dakota et al as all forces move back to Baker Island for repair (mine victims) or refuel/re-armament. The last of my necessary convoys (carrying BF/airgroups/supply) will reach Baker Island tomorrow.

Once all my ships are bakc and i'm about to launch off I will disclose my 2 invasion targets (secrecy and all)

--------------

SS I-31 was unable to penetrate my dense DD screen around my carriers and DD Fletcher chased her off 60 miles SE of Maloelap.

SS Aspro hit a prize target today - ML Ikitsushima with a torpedo 240 miles east of Truk. If only 1 more had hit home! She may make Truk.

SS Trusty had just reached her position 240 miles ENE of Palembang when she found a freighter convoy. She damaged AK Kitahuku Maru with a torpedo.

SS Spearfish hit troop laden AP Nissen #2 with a torpedo 240 miles ENE of Sorong.

SS Jack had a good day when she firstly blew up AK Teshio Maru with 4 torpedoes (the MOST i've seen in 1 spread) and then she fired a further spread at Zuikai Maru, 1 of which hit 120 miles north of Pagan.

-----------------

2 x AK and an LST arrive in theatre tomorrow as does a Corsair squadron.

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Post #: 709
RE: 23rd October 1943 - 8/20/2006 9:02:29 PM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline 		thanks for info Speedy... I will check again my subs but I'm 99 % sure that none of them passed 60 exp - although they are in the action for 15 months... anyway, keep the good work...

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24th October 1943 - 8/21/2006 10:23:48 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi all,

A quieter day today.....the lull before the storm hits the Marshalls.

--------------

SS S-43 saw some action in the Lower Kuriles putting a fish into loaded AP Minryo Maru. Interestingly this was heading AWAY from Paramushiro......clearly moving troops out of the area. Interesting.........

SS Thresher missed AK Yamahagi Maru with 4 torpedoes 240 miles south of Hong Kong.

SS Skipjack missed TK Toa Maru 120 miles NW of Jesselton.

SS Runner evaded 4 x MSW west of Luzon.

-------------

With the arrival of P38J's I decided it was time to pay Paramushiro Jima a visit from Attu. 36 x P38J escorted 9 Liberator. They met 14 x Tojo and 21 x Tony. My veterans had fun in shooting down 14 enemy for no loss. We go tomorrow expecting more enemy on CAP.

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25th October 1943 - 8/21/2006 11:39:59 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Well 2 prize possessions could've been sunk today by my subs....1 was the other escaped....ML's......

ML Kamome was missed by SS Cuttlefish 300 miles east of Truk.

ML Yurijima was probably sunk by SS Porpoise 240 miles north of Pagan with 2 torpedo hits. Sink you bugger.

ML's along with TK's are my top joint target for my subs now. The little gits lay eggs that damage any invasion a lot.

SS Capelin also had success in moving towards the San Marcelino region she encountered a TK convoy a put a fish into the empty TK Toa Maru (missed by SS Skipjack yesterday). She won't sink but she'll be in port for a while.

SS Drum was attacked by ASW forces west of Luzon today. Little damage was caused. Time to relocate.

If I get the time i'm going to tot up the number of ships my subs have sunk since game start.

------------------

The follow up attack on Paramushira met more CAP, as expected. 70 x enemy Tojo and Tony were on CAP. 14 of them were shot down for the loss of 12 x P38J and 2 x Liberator. Time to to rest. In time I may go for Paramushiro. Recon indicates only 6 units there now.

------------------

All CV divisions will hopefully arrive back at Baker Island tomorrow.

------------------

2 x AK, AGC Appalachian, a DD and a DE arrive in theatre tomorrow as does 4th USA Prov Tank Bn.

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Post #: 712
26th October 1943 - 8/22/2006 10:45:45 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi all,

As planned all CV divisions are back at Baker Island. A couple more DD's were added to each CV Divisions as was CVL Bataan to the Lexington/Saratoga TF.

We refuel and re-arm today and then tomorrow we head out with BB divisions and transports bound for the Marshalls.

------------------

SS Bowfin missed AK Batopaha Maru 300 miles north of Pagan.

SS Tautog blew up MSW Shanan Maru #16 when 3 torpedoes hit home. Light damage was sustained in the resulting escort attack. This occured 180 miles south of Menado with Tautog en route to the west of Luzon.

SS Herring was set upon by 5 x DD NW of Bonin Islands. Time to relocate 180 miles away.

------------------

SS Picuda arrives tomorrow. The 2nd of my 'tracked subs' she is at the other extreme with 75/75 experience. Both her and SS Hackleback (60/60) will be tracked.

To give you an idea of the number of ships at Baker Island here's a screenshot - 500+ ships..............




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RE: 26th October 1943 - 8/22/2006 11:01:33 PM   
Feinder


Posts: 6589
Joined: 9/4/2002
From: Land o' Lakes, FL
Status: offline 		FWIW regarding sub experience

In Scen #15, the editor shows US subs all with exp of 0 (which means it defaults to the random generator). From the (fairly large) sampling that I checked, for both day and night experience it was

55 +/- 15

No preference to day or night.

I quickly added up the day + night for many boats, and they held true at about 110 total.

Could it could be that the base exp level (55) changes in 1943...? That way, when the scen starts in 1943, all subs would randomly generate with the higher base, or if the scen starts in 1941 or 1942, those subs arriving in 1943+ arrive with a higher exp base?


-F-


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Post #: 714
27th October 1943 - 8/23/2006 10:36:41 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Feinder - interesting stuff. Could well be. I certainly don't recall any subs arriving at lower than 60/60 (SS Hackelback which i'm tracking from now on).

-------------------

Well the fleets have been reorganised and they are due to leave Baker Island on the 28th October bound for the Marshalls.....my invasion islands will be announced tomorrow when the leet is underway....for secrecy

A LOT of ships are leaving port I can say that. The turn took me 20 minutes longer due to this re-organisation. From memory there is:

3 x CV TF's
4 x BB TF's
1 x Invasion support CV TF
1 x CVR TF
6-7 x Transport TF's

Time to kick arse!
-------------------

SS Amberjack sank the freighter Jinmu Maru today NW of Tori Shima. She hit the ships with a torpedo late morning which made her dead in the water. Not appearing to sink though she put 2 more fish into her which quickly led to her demise.

SS Herring missed DD Amatsukaze 120 miles SW of Tori Shima. The ASW TF tried to locate Herring throughout the day but failed.

SS Finback missed TK Koryu Maru 180 miles ENE of Tarakan.

------------------

Usual bombings throughout Burma and China.

2 x AK and SS Pompanito arrive in theatre tomorrow.

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RE: 27th October 1943 - 8/23/2006 10:46:36 PM   
aztez

 

Posts: 4031
Joined: 2/26/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline 		Good luck with Marshalls adventure Speedy!

I'am very intrested to see how it turns out. Those atolls can be quite nasty!

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Post #: 716
28th October 1943 - 8/24/2006 3:37:58 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Hi aztez - Thanks. It will bee fun to see how it goes and to see if Faber reacts.

My huge armada left Baker Island as planned and proceeded towards the Marshalls undedected.

Over 600 ships are involved in this operation (see screenshot below).

I can now reveal the operational plan. Recon appears to indicate that both Kwajalein and Maloelap are heavily garrisoned where as the other islands appear empty or lightly garrisoned (Jaluit for example). As such I see no reason to take unecessary LCU casualties when I can achieve my aims by occupying easier targets. Engineers and Base Forces are scheduled to occupy:

Majuro
Wotje

In case resistance is met a host of LCU's are loaded on transports if needed (I will list these in detail tomorrow).

---------------------

SS Haddock attacked the same convoy that Finback did yesterday - 120 miels west of Tarakan. The empty TK Toen Maru was hit with a torpedo.

SS Cisco avoided 2 x PC 180 miles ESe of Batan Island.

SS Seadragon surfaced and sank the troop laden AP Kasui Maru SW of Borneo. Members of 139th IJN BF were left drowning..........

SS Skate received a thorough working over by 5 x ASW vessels 120 miles south of Bonin Islands. She is to return to Midway for repairs. SS Picuda is to leave San Francisco to replace her.

SS Capelin turned hunter today when she heavily damaged DD Fubuki with a torpedo 240 miles SE of Hong Kong.

------------------------

An AK will arrive in theatre tomorrow.




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Post #: 717
29th October 1943 - 8/25/2006 12:07:53 AM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Ah this is fun....every day my armada nears the Marshalls and contact with the enemy. The unknown awaits.....will it go smoothly....will I occupy both targets easily....will Faber react with the Combined Fleet? etc

My fleets still remain undetected which is good.

In preparation for the invasions and with Apamama reaching a level 5 airfield a B24 BG has flown into Apamama and will hopefully hit Kwajalein's airfields tomorrow.

-------------------

A bad day in the sub war............

SS Tautog avoided 5 x ASW vessels 120 miles south of Jolo.

SS Herring was not so lucky and received a pummeling from DD Shigure and DD Hatsuhara 60 miles NW of the Boinin's. She will hopefully limp back to Midway. SS Crevalle is to replace her a few hundred miles further south.

Time to relocate most of my subs from the Iwo Jima area.

--------------------

A ship hit repeatedly at Rangoon over the past few weeks sank today - AS MAnju Maru.

AO Sata was also confirmed sunk today - a sub victim.

--------------------

CVE Manlia Bay, SS Parche, an AK, LST and MSW arrive in theatre tomororw.

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Post #: 718
RE: 29th October 1943 - 8/25/2006 10:07:33 AM   
aztez

 

Posts: 4031
Joined: 2/26/2005
From: Finland
Status: offline 		That is a lot firepower you gathered for this invasion.

Do you have any intel about strenght of the Japanese at Kwaleijin? (We are about find out soon though)

My experience was that those shock assaults + level 9 fortifications can be very nasty for the allied side. I think I lost more 50% of the men as disablements and casualties. Well, you do have greater control of these since you got 1 day turn cycle.


Another nasty element is mines. If he has mined the base longtime than you can expect quite a few hits from these too.

Looking at your force I think you can pull this one off though. Let's just hope that casualties are not remarkably high!

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Post #: 719
30th October 1943 - 8/25/2006 10:16:31 PM   
Speedysteve

 

Posts: 15998
Joined: 9/11/2001
From: Reading, England
Status: offline 		Hi all,

Hi aztez - you can never have enough firepower It's 'heartening' to know that I still receive a lot of Essex class CV's and have Missouri et al

As for Kwajalein - Faber 'appears' to have pulled most air units away from the region after my last CV sortie. Fine by me. My aim for now is to secure a foothold in the Marshalls. I would be happy to meet the Combined Fleet but would prefer to meet it later what with CV Division 4 out of play for now and with a wealth of Essex class CV's due in the future...............

Kwajalein appears to have 9 LCU's. I expect all places to have 9 forts and thousands of mines.............

--------------------

My force still appears to move towards the enemy unsighted.

34 x B24D dropped their payload over Kwajalein today. 1 bomber was shot down by flak and a Dinah recon plane was reported burnign on the ground. B24J's arrived to replace them now.........

--------------------

More submarine action........

SS Mingo evaded ASW vessels 60 miles east of Batavia.

SS Redfin evaded MSW escorts 120 miles NE of JEsselton.

SS Pargo heavily damaged AK Totai Maru with a torpedo 60 miles west of Tori Shima.

SS Amberjack put a fish into the bow of Shiganoura Maru 60 miles NW of Tori Shima.

SS Seadragon performed well, again, by sinking the empty AP Kumagawa Maru with 2 torpedo hits 120 miles south of Banjarmasin.

SS Scamp missed DD Akikaze with 6 torpedoes 120 miles SE of Davao.

SS Hackleback (trackee) received a near miss today when she was attacked by 5 x ASW vessels south of Jolo. Minor damage.

--------------------

November is nearing now....tomorrow the score update.

Helldivers and P63's are in production from tomorrow.

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