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RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/13/2006 10:36:38 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		watching 2 proto geeks try to play one game of Advanced Squad Leader at a coffee shop with perilously stacked counters was enough for me in regards to the board wargaming experience. I'll stick to cat proof computer counters.

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Post #: 91
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/13/2006 10:54:23 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

(It was Bears daughter in law and sister in law)


I really hope you're talking about two people.


Hi, Jenny and Linda might be a clue?


Yeah, I know Mog. Just a joke. Try figuring it out if it is only one person though.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 92
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/13/2006 11:15:40 PM   
Nicholas Bell

 

Posts: 549
Joined: 4/10/2006
From: Eagle River, Alaska
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

Any chance you can post some of the rules and compare them to WITP's design? I'd especially like to see rules for the land combat, surface ship combat, carrier vs carrier and A2A combat, and some of the ops and logistics stuff.


Rulebook One is available online:http://www.decisiongames.com/WITP_Basic_RulesBK1.pdf.zip

There is another rulebook covering production and other stuff, two books of charts, one scenario/reinforcement book, and one examples of play/optional rules books.

I plan on converting this game for use on Aide de Camp 2 for Decision Games, but only if they send me the graphics files. Still waiting. Only way I'll every be able to play it..again. Did so with a heavily revised version of the original - solitaire! My version: 3 types of supplies, individual aircraft, telescoping turns ranging from one week to half day, etc. Sound familiar - in 1980 no less.

One really GOOD thing about board wargames is that when the designers got something wrong one can easily fix it oneself (if you're got a historical bend and are saavy enough). No need to wait for a patch or convince programers to look at something.

(in reply to Ron Saueracker)
Post #: 93
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 12:11:31 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Now for the important question.    Would ANYONE out there be interested in playing a "Moderated, hidden movement, version" of this game for a 9 day intensive face-to-face encounter?   Multi-player, with Team Commands?   Possibly in Kansas City?   Next Summer?   Just trying to see if there is any interest left in such an endevour?


I'm in.

Jim


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Post #: 94
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 12:38:02 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

Rulebook One is available online:http://www.decisiongames.com/WITP_Basic_RulesBK1.pdf.zip



Link's dead...

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We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 95
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 12:40:43 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami
I know there are still a lot of board gamers out there and I respect their choice but I am now a computer gamer and view board games much the way I do old Commodore-64 games. Very good for their day and a lot of fun once apon a time.


I find this a bit odd actually. Having been an avid board gamer then PC gamer, I really don’t equate the two as the same kind of experience.

Board gaming is really all about the social aspect of interacting with the other players. Part of the reason forums like this exist is because with PC games social interaction is very limited so we reach out on public forums to other like minded individuals to help fill that void.

But it isn’t real time interaction for the most part and I get much less satisfaction interacting in cyberspace than I do from a bunch of like minded rowdy wargamers all smelling up the same room together. Especially after the first few beers have been consumed.

Nope for me board gaming is still quite enjoyable, but the opportunities to board game have dwindled. I guess because like you, many equate them as the same thing and no longer look for others to game with face to face. I am guilty of this too since I was an instigator of get togethers in the past but not so much these days.

Jim


< Message edited by Jim D Burns -- 9/14/2006 2:33:47 PM >

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Post #: 96
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 12:42:16 AM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
Link's dead...


Try this:

http://www.decisiongames.com/html/erules.html

Jim


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Post #: 97
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 12:43:07 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I'd say it comes down to the fact that the computer is willing and able to play whenever you want, 100% of the time. Not so for a meatbag opponent.

I'm sorry, but I think time has gotten away from a monster paper game like Decision Games WitP. And $420?!?!?!? Come on!

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 98
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 12:45:13 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline
quote:

But it isn’t real time interaction for the most part and I get much less satisfaction interacting in cyberspace than I do from a bunch of like minded rowdy wargamers all smelling up the same room together. Especially after the first few bears have been consumed.


That's a rough-sounding crowd! Stinky, bear-eating wargamers doesn't really mesh with my experience. It more the stinky, chip-eating geeky types.


(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 99
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 2:20:40 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi,  The only problem with board games is I've played many where all the players began the game as friends. The game was never finished and it sometimes came down to a punch in the snoot.
I've had players get upset over the results of a computer game but they have not been able to throw a punch. (had some really rude SPWAW related emails) Had a few online games of COG get ugly (but all you can do online is call each other names)
I also think more then a few board gamers I've encountered cheat. (dice yech I hates them) if WITP was the board game I would need to track over 200 index cards per turn and trust the other side was actually writting down all those orders in advance. (and not like I discovered in Rochester NY writing 3 sets and then pulling the one that best suited them) (they even had "generic" orders cards that they would fill in the blanks as required.  They were amazing for always having exactly the right orders for every turn.)

( If the dogs had not gotten into a squabble amonst themselves I never would have learned they were cheating.)

< Message edited by Mogami -- 9/14/2006 2:26:54 AM >

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I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 100
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 2:25:10 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sonny

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Now for the important question. Would ANYONE out there be interested in playing a "Moderated, hidden movement, version" of this game for a 9 day intensive face-to-face encounter? Multi-player, with Team Commands? Possibly in Kansas City? Next Summer? Just trying to see if there is any interest left in such an endevour?



The first 8 days would be to read the rules and set the game up and then one day for the PH strike!
Very tempting though. Don't know waht I am doing next summer.



Actually, one of the advantages of playing a "moderated team" format is that it is not necessary to "know the rules" cold. You need about 6 people who DO understand them (especially as modified for "hidden movement"); a couple on each "side", and the moderators (two minimum). Others on each side only need an interest in the period and the event. As "sub-commanders" they will need to learn how to handle specific areas, but not everything. If you are running Kido Butai, you don't need to know much about how the ground system works---and vice versa for the Burma Theatre CO.

Having done this several times, I can vouch that it is a uniquely "social" event, and you will become quite close to the folks on "your team" over 9 days. And their will be some quite historically realistic "conflicts" within the team over which course to follow, who gets what assets, and other questions. I have no idea if this event will actually come to pass, but thought it would be good to know what kind of interest might be out there. If enough folks are interested, I'm sure something can be put together built around a framework of folks who have done this before.

(in reply to Sonny)
Post #: 101
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 2:25:29 AM   
Bodhi


Posts: 1267
Joined: 8/26/2003
From: Japan
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

I'd say it comes down to the fact that the computer is willing and able to play whenever you want, 100% of the time. Not so for a meatbag opponent.


Of course, that assumes you have a half decent AI to play against, otherwise you'll still be waiting on another person for a PBEM turn.

quote:


I'm sorry, but I think time has gotten away from a monster paper game like Decision Games WitP. And $420?!?!?!? Come on!


Come on! I'm sorry, but that's just your mistaken opinion, and one with which I and others disagree!

The only thing I'm sorry about is not knowing any others near me who'd be interested in a game. If there were a few near me, and there probably are but I just don't know them, I'd get the game today.


_____________________________

Bodhi

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 102
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 2:31:04 AM   
mogami


Posts: 12789
Joined: 8/23/2000
From: You can't get here from there
Status: offline 		Hi, Well now I am interested in designing a boardgame.  3 mile hexes, 20 minute turns. The entire earth from 1900 on. Cost 9000. order in advance and it's only 7500.

send checks or money orders to

Mogami's What on Earth (no make that War on Earth)(WOE) Or You idiots kill everyone (YIKE)


< Message edited by Mogami -- 9/14/2006 2:34:45 AM >

_____________________________






I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a different direction!

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Post #: 103
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 2:38:37 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi,  The only problem with board games is I've played many where all the players began the game as friends. The game was never finished and it sometimes came down to a punch in the snoot.
I've had players get upset over the results of a computer game but they have not been able to throw a punch. (had some really rude SPWAW related emails) Had a few online games of COG get ugly (but all you can do online is call each other names)
I also think more then a few board gamers I've encountered cheat. (dice yech I hates them) if WITP was the board game I would need to track over 200 index cards per turn and trust the other side was actually writting down all those orders in advance. (and not like I discovered in Rochester NY writing 3 sets and then pulling the one that best suited them) (they even had "generic" orders cards that they would fill in the blanks as required.  They were amazing for always having exactly the right orders for every turn.)



This is where the "moderator team" and distance come into play. The moderators have "the final word" in ALL matters, and the fact that you spent money and vacation time just to show up for the "event" tend to make folks more reasonable. I've seen a few people "opt out" of such a game, but only if they were locals and could easily go home. Those who had to "fly in" (we had one who came from England) also had to learn to "get along", "politic", and compromise. Otherwise they shot themselves in the foot. Cheating was not really a factor, as combats were decided over a central map with both sides shaking the same "dice jar" (no free rolling die on a surface which might have hundreds of counters on it), and generally had lots of "interested spectators". And it's hard to "cheat" when the folks "on your side" would probably "turn you in" as well. There was, and I'm sure would be again, some "grumbling" about moderator dictates..., but those actually bring the "team" together. And last until something goes "your" way, and the other team gets to grumble for a while.

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 104
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 2:39:35 AM   
wworld7


Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

Hi, Well now I am interested in designing a boardgame.  3 mile hexes, 20 minute turns. The entire earth from 1900 on. Cost 9000. order in advance and it's only 7500.

send checks or money orders to

Mogami's What on Earth (no make that War on Earth)(WOE) Or You idiots kill everyone (YIKE)



Important question(s):

Mogami,

#1 Will you accept post-dated, out-of-state, third party checks as payment?

#2 Does this include shipping?

Flipper

P.S. Could you first please produce any the old AH classics for WIndowsXP? Afrika Korps or D-Day or Stalingrad etc...

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 105
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 2:39:36 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bodhi

Come on! I'm sorry, but that's just your mistaken opinion, and one with which I and others disagree!


Just because you disagree doesn't make my opinion "mistaken"...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

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Post #: 106
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 5:03:49 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		Mogami, I had a guy cheat on me at an ASL tournament. He had a dice machine that rolled snake eyes for him when he held the dice a certain way. I tried it, found him out, and demanded we switch to rolling dice in a glass. Then I proceeded to win anyway. :)

That said, I loved ASL to death, and part of me misses the board gaming days. Admittedly, mostly I played them solitaire, which may seem crazy, but there you have it. If I break down and get this board game of WITP, I'll just fool around with it solitaire. I know it won't really work that way, but I don't care; I just like setting up the game, learning the rules, pushing counters around. It's insane, but it's fun.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 107
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 5:28:51 AM   
Nicholas Bell

 

Posts: 549
Joined: 4/10/2006
From: Eagle River, Alaska
Status: offline 		Admittedly, mostly I played them solitaire, which may seem crazy, but there you have it. If I break down and get this board game of WITP, I'll just fool around with it solitaire. I know it won't really work that way, but I don't care; I just like setting up the game, learning the rules, pushing counters around. It's insane, but it's fun.


Grotius, you are hardly crazy. What you describe is pretty typical of boardwargamers - me included. For sure, there are those who say they've never played solitaire, don't see the point it, etc, etc, but they are but a vocal minority. And while I have enjoyed FTF and PBEM gaming on occasion (and really disliked it at other times because of the extreme competitive nature of some, and rules lawyers in others) my best memories of over 35 years of wargaming have been those solitaire games. If I may be so bold to put a broad brush to the whole issue, those interested in history or enjoy simply studying game systems as they relate to the same, enjoy solitaire gaming as you describe. Those that hate it with a passion and decry those that do are competitive extroverts. That's fine, each to his/her own. Unfortunately their "vocalness" makes the "silent majority" of wargamers feel like they must somehow excuse their method of enjoying their hobby. No need to do that here - you're in good company. At least speaking for myself.

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 108
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 5:39:55 AM   
ckk

 

Posts: 1268
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: Pensacola Beach FL
Status: offline 		Well said Nicholas

(in reply to Nicholas Bell)
Post #: 109
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 8:03:55 AM   
MadmanRick


Posts: 579
Joined: 4/9/2004
From: New York City, U.S.A.
Status: offline
quote:

Grotius, you are hardly crazy. What you describe is pretty typical of boardwargamers - me included. For sure, there are those who say they've never played solitaire, don't see the point it, etc, etc, but they are but a vocal minority. And while I have enjoyed FTF and PBEM gaming on occasion (and really disliked it at other times because of the extreme competitive nature of some, and rules lawyers in others) my best memories of over 35 years of wargaming have been those solitaire games. If I may be so bold to put a broad brush to the whole issue, those interested in history or enjoy simply studying game systems as they relate to the same, enjoy solitaire gaming as you describe. Those that hate it with a passion and decry those that do are competitive extroverts. That's fine, each to his/her own. Unfortunately their "vocalness" makes the "silent majority" of wargamers feel like they must somehow excuse their method of enjoying their hobby. No need to do that here - you're in good company. At least speaking for myself.


I played almost all of my board games solitaire, mostly due to a lack of reliable opponents. While some were more adaptable than others, most can be played solo. I currently possess 60+ board wargames (including many SPI classics such as WitP, WiE and CFNA)and my goal is to really get into the Europa series (I own all the games from this series) and completely learn that system.
Rick

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"Our lives begin to end the moment we become silent about things that matter". Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

(in reply to Nicholas Bell)
Post #: 110
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 2:00:27 PM   
sadja

 

Posts: 299
Joined: 8/1/2004
Status: offline 		Boardgames is how I got into the gaming world. It started with AH D-Day in 1965. I played solo most games. I once spent 100+ hours designing a defence AH Stalingrad (really the whole Russian Campaign). I didn't understand about defense in depth. I rolled dice all day long to put the right troops in the right spot. First time I played somrbody sfter repeated attacks they finally broke my crust defense and lost the war by Dec. 42. But that never made me quit. I have 100+ games a bunch of SPI games. I even used my War in the Pacific as colateral with the guy who owned the hobby shop (I was in the army at the time.) I have had two periods in my life where I was able to play with the same group of people. Most of the time it was role playing stuff, but I was introduced to minitures (Civil War, Napoleonic, and Ancients) The social interaction was mostly good. One of the highlights of my life was going to Origins 1984 and comanding the A of the Tenn at Stones River with 8 other guys on my side, and playing a neat little senerio of the Alamo. Very little beats the personnel interaction. But this is the only way now for me to play as everybody around me thinks I'm crazy to play these games.

After having said all this I have only played WITP on my computer and mostly PBEM. Have been playing the same opponent for over 2 years with many restarts and side changes and sometimes playing 2 games with us on each side. This game has consumed my gaming time. We are about to reach Jan 43.

Would still love to push the counters around.

One other thing, has anybody out there ever played mail games from Schubel & Sons. I played them in te mid 80's when I earned about 500-600 a month. You people complaine about paying 70.00 for this game. My S&S budget was about 120.00 a month not counting phone calls.

Sorry about the rambling, but I have ADHD, its still early and the Ritilin hasn't kicked in yet. Love the pic of the game would love to see it in person. 

_____________________________

Your never Lost if you don't care where you are.

Tom Massie GPAA

(in reply to MadmanRick)
Post #: 111
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/14/2006 7:19:26 PM   
Sonny

 

Posts: 2008
Joined: 4/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mogami

.................

(dice yech I hates them)

......................



That is the good part about board games. When you roll the dice you feel that you somehow have control of the outcome. Much better than some random number generator which allows you to see 30 subs on one turn and 2 on the next turn.

_____________________________

Quote from Snigbert -

"If you mess with the historical accuracy, you're going to have ahistorical outcomes."

"I'll say it again for Sonny's sake: If you mess with historical accuracy, you're going to have
ahistorical outcomes. "

(in reply to mogami)
Post #: 112
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/15/2006 1:31:30 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

Grotius, you are hardly crazy. What you describe is pretty typical of boardwargamers - me included. For sure, there are those who say they've never played solitaire, don't see the point it, etc, etc, but they are but a vocal minority. And while I have enjoyed FTF and PBEM gaming on occasion (and really disliked it at other times because of the extreme competitive nature of some, and rules lawyers in others) my best memories of over 35 years of wargaming have been those solitaire games. If I may be so bold to put a broad brush to the whole issue, those interested in history or enjoy simply studying game systems as they relate to the same, enjoy solitaire gaming as you describe. ... you're in good company. At least speaking for myself.


Nicely said, Nicholas. I'm glad to hear there are others that think the same way! And, for what it's worth, I took the plunge and ordered this game. It arrives next week. That'll give me time to clear up a few hundred square feet of table space. :)

(in reply to Nicholas Bell)
Post #: 113
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/15/2006 9:55:10 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline 		Good luck to all you brave souls who have ordered this monster game.

However i did browse throught the AAR (reading it all was impossible ). and saw this little gem in 1945

"Mobotu-based F4Us cut a swath thru the Japanese fighters, downing twenty-four Georges and twenty Ki-84s."

Humm .. anyone recognise that result from WitP anywhere

_____________________________

sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 114
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/15/2006 11:59:26 PM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		Well i like BoardGames but they need to follow the following criteria:

- Being so designed that they can be completed in one Evning
- Have not to many Counters
- Not Complicated Rules
- Have a good Editorial Level
- Map should fit on Table


As for now the only games fallowing this Criteria are the GMT Games I played quite a few of those and those games are really fun to play


_____________________________



Pinky: Hey Brain what are we goeing to do this evening?
Brain: The Usual Pinky we will try to take over the World;)

(in reply to Rob Brennan UK)
Post #: 115
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/16/2006 12:08:31 AM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

Posts: 1359
Joined: 2/1/2005
From: Gdansk
Status: offline 		Games that can be completed in one or two evening sucks!!!

Why to ever play them if you realized that you are finishing it, even if you just started.

_____________________________

Nec Temere Nec Timide
Bez strachu ale z rozwagą

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Post #: 116
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/16/2006 12:22:05 AM   
Yava


Posts: 2129
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: Poland/Kolobrzeg
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monter_Trismegistos

Games that can be completed in one or two evening sucks!!!

Why to ever play them if you realized that you are finishing it, even if you just started.


Try playing Waterloo from Dragon... One evening of setting up...

_____________________________


Art by Dixie.

(in reply to Monter_Trismegistos)
Post #: 117
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/16/2006 12:35:04 AM   
Przemcio231


Posts: 1901
Joined: 10/11/2005
From: Warsaw,Poland,EU:)
Status: offline 		I owned the game it was nicely done but it suck a big time the set up took forever and the game proces was really slow all those Charges and Counter-Charges The only Playable Dragoon Game Was "Tannenberg 1914"

_____________________________



Pinky: Hey Brain what are we goeing to do this evening?
Brain: The Usual Pinky we will try to take over the World;)

(in reply to Yava)
Post #: 118
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/16/2006 12:38:49 AM   
Yava


Posts: 2129
Joined: 7/21/2006
From: Poland/Kolobrzeg
Status: offline 		B-35 system was/is good and simple... has some bugs but still is good, Waterloo is also a good game and still very complex... suitable for 4 players in my opinion, at least I used to play that way... never really had a chance to play Tanenberg...

< Message edited by Yava -- 9/16/2006 12:40:26 AM >

_____________________________


Art by Dixie.

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Post #: 119
RE: OT-Decision Games WitP - 9/16/2006 3:44:19 AM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

Posts: 1359
Joined: 2/1/2005
From: Gdansk
Status: offline 		My favourite of Dragon series was Ardeny 1944. Ive also have Wiedeń 1693, Grunwald 1410 and Kircholm 1605. Since I am fan of XX century wars, I didn't like those three titles.

_____________________________

Nec Temere Nec Timide
Bez strachu ale z rozwagą

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Post #: 120
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