Matrix Games Forums

 Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

OK, a real question

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> OK, a real question Page: [1]
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
OK, a real question - 10/7/2006 4:09:51 PM   
SamCole

 

Posts: 116
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline 		I am playing a PBEM as Japan. My opponent has done something and
I think there is an exploit in it. I just do not know what it is. I am not
that worried about it but I want to understand what advantage he is trying
to gain. As far as I know, we do NOT have a house rule against this.

I have read a number of house rules and two that may be germane are:
1. No more that 6 PT boats in a surface combat TF.
2. No other types of ships in a PT TF except when moving.

Here is the portion of the combat report that I am wondering about:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Tarawa at 84,95

Japanese Ships
CL Tatsuta
DD Mutsuki, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Kisaragi, Shell hits 2, on fire
DD Yayoi
DD Mochizuki

Allied Ships
PG Charleston, Shell hits 6
PC Ontario, and is sunk
PC Navajo
PC Seminole, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
PC Reliance, Shell hits 37, and is sunk
PC Tiger
PT PT-20
PT PT-21
PT PT-22
PT PT-23
PT PT-24
PT PT-25
PT PT-27
PT PT-28
PT PT-29
PT PT-30
PT PT-36
PT PT-37
PT PT-38
PT PT-39
PT PT-40
PT PT-42
PT PT-43

So, just what advantage is he trying to gain? I am mostly interested in avoiding
any pitfalls this arrangement might present.
Post #: 1
RE: OK, a real question - 10/7/2006 4:26:43 PM   
worr

 

Posts: 901
Joined: 2/7/2001
Status: offline 		I'd say you made out pretty good considering the numbers.

I would say 6 in a convoy is a good rule. But the old adage also holds: "Anyone who bests me must be cheating." :)

(in reply to SamCole)
Post #: 2
RE: OK, a real question - 10/7/2006 5:02:31 PM   
KDonovan


Posts: 1157
Joined: 9/25/2005
From: New Jersey
Status: offline 		by putting non-PT boats with PT's....you TF will engage the only the non-PT boats...allowing the PT-boats to slam torpedo after torpedo into your TF. Major exploit

(in reply to SamCole)
Post #: 3
RE: OK, a real question - 10/7/2006 5:07:10 PM   
SamCole

 

Posts: 116
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KDonovan

by putting non-PT boats with PT's....you TF will engage the only the non-PT boats...allowing the PT-boats to slam torpedo after torpedo into your TF. Major exploit


OK, that helps explain the next night:

Night Time Surface Combat, near Tarawa at 84,95

Japanese Ships
CL Tenryu
CL Yubari
DD Oite, Shell hits 1
DD Hayate
DD Asanagi
DD Yunagi

Allied Ships
PG Charleston, Shell hits 3
PC Navajo, Shell hits 29, and is sunk
PC Tiger
PT PT-20
PT PT-21
PT PT-22
PT PT-23
PT PT-24
PT PT-25
PT PT-27
PT PT-28
PT PT-29
PT PT-30
PT PT-36
PT PT-37
PT PT-38
PT PT-39
PT PT-40
PT PT-42
PT PT-43

So, I will not be able to engage his PTs with a surface combat TF. I will have to figure something
out to counter that. Thank you.

(in reply to KDonovan)
Post #: 4
RE: OK, a real question - 10/7/2006 5:19:40 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		A. I would talk with him about a house rule regarding that. I think its BS, but that's my personal opinion.

B. Use your fighters to strafe his PTs. It will take a while to actually sink them, but its safe. There is no need for your navy to be taking damage. Use reasonably good pilots if you want good results.

_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to SamCole)
Post #: 5
RE: OK, a real question - 10/7/2006 6:52:24 PM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		Strafing can lead to sync problems with the replay's.

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 6
RE: OK, a real question - 10/7/2006 7:11:53 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline 		Maybe suggest that when moving PT's they have to be with an AK representing the fact that they are on-board etc. and NO other types of ships period.

_____________________________

sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 7
RE: OK, a real question - 10/7/2006 8:47:05 PM   
Nemo121


Posts: 5821
Joined: 2/6/2004
Status: offline 		SamCole,

I have been playing this game a while and never heard that mixing PTs with non-PTs would result in the PTs not being engaged by surface ships so it may just be that you opponent had no idea about this.

I think you have to assume that a bug is unknown and tell your opponent about it. If he says he didn't know about it and doesn't mix PTs again then problem solved. If he mixes PTs again then you walk away from the game. Simple... But you have to assume that, at present, he doens't know this is a bug and you must inform him of it. It'll be easy to tell by his reaction whether or not he knew about it.

(in reply to Rob Brennan UK)
Post #: 8
RE: OK, a real question - 10/7/2006 10:56:40 PM   
stldiver


Posts: 724
Joined: 7/6/2006
From: West Palm Beach, USA
Status: offline 		Actually, I have never done this, I am playing allied currently, nor would I have have suspected the results (and I won't do it). But I disagree with Nemo on walking from the game. It definatly isn't a game breaking issue, and the amount of time invested to get where you are is not worth throwing it away over a few PT boats. If your opponent is capable and for the most part fair, talk to him and continue on not matter the result. There are things that will be to your advantage and his throughout the campaign, and this will happen with all opponents so definatly don't take the change or walk approach.

This will lead you to having few opponents that will bother to play against you.

(in reply to Nemo121)
Post #: 9
RE: OK, a real question - 10/8/2006 1:05:21 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		The disadvantage to your opponant is that by mixing non-PT boats in with the PT boats your AC will now attack both. PT only TFs can only be straffed by fighters. If they are mixed with any other ships they will be attacked like a regular ship.

_____________________________

"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has limits"- Darwin Awards 2003

"No plan survives contact with the enemy." - Field Marshall Helmuth von Moltke


(in reply to stldiver)
Post #: 10
RE: OK, a real question - 10/8/2006 1:06:29 AM   
SamCole

 

Posts: 116
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline 		thank you all, I will ask that he refrain from this practice and if he doesn't, the game goes forward. It is not a game breaker for me and I will have to work around it.

(in reply to stldiver)
Post #: 11
RE: OK, a real question - 10/8/2006 4:25:13 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

The disadvantage to your opponant is that by mixing non-PT boats in with the PT boats your AC will now attack both. PT only TFs can only be straffed by fighters. If they are mixed with any other ships they will be attacked like a regular ship.

Good observation RUPD. I would test it and if it works go all out against his PT boats. A 200 Sally/Helen strike should do nicely. Then install a rule that prevents this in the future and probably calls for no more than 6 PT boat squadrons. He could still have 50 6 boat squadrons in a hex.

_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to RUPD3658)
Post #: 12
RE: OK, a real question - 10/8/2006 5:03:34 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		Personally, I think it should be a 12-PT boat per TF limit.  That's what is created when you hit the "create PT" button anyways.  And limiting PTs to 6 per base seems like an over-reaction from people who didn't properly plan for escorts and/or think that the Japanese should be able to overrun everything without serious opposition.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 13
RE: OK, a real question - 10/8/2006 5:15:18 AM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		Might be worth doing a little historical research into it if one is considering a house rule.

Edit: IIRC the USN actually had an ongoing debate as to how to use PT boats, if at all. They were largely seen as death traps and useless against war ships. PT commanders of course disagreed and in fact argued for a variety of tactics. These ranged from big group strikes to small group ambush tactics.

< Message edited by niceguy2005 -- 10/8/2006 5:17:39 AM >

_____________________________


Artwork graciously provided by Dixie

(in reply to dtravel)
Post #: 14
RE: OK, a real question - 10/8/2006 5:20:30 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline 		Just keep in mind that not every PT in a TF fires its torpedoes.  In my experience one, maybe two, out of a 12 PT TF will fire torpedoes in any given engagement.  So if you're limiting the Allied player to 6 PTs then you're restricting him to only about a 50% chance of them doing anything useful at all.

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 15
RE: OK, a real question - 10/8/2006 5:30:28 AM   
dtravel


Posts: 4533
Joined: 7/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: niceguy2005

Might be worth doing a little historical research into it if one is considering a house rule.

Edit: IIRC the USN actually had an ongoing debate as to how to use PT boats, if at all. They were largely seen as death traps and useless against war ships. PT commanders of course disagreed and in fact argued for a variety of tactics. These ranged from big group strikes to small group ambush tactics.


IIRC they ended up being "barge busters", reducing or even getting rid of the torpedoes all together to make room for more and more guns to shoot up barges and other small craft with. (Something that the game does not simulate. There are no refits to reflect this.)

_____________________________

This game does not have a learning curve. It has a learning cliff.

"Bomb early, bomb often, bomb everything." - Niceguy

Any bugs I report are always straight stock games.


(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 16
RE: OK, a real question - 10/8/2006 6:15:54 AM   
SamCole

 

Posts: 116
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RUPD3658

The disadvantage to your opponant is that by mixing non-PT boats in with the PT boats your AC will now attack both. PT only TFs can only be straffed by fighters. If they are mixed with any other ships they will be attacked like a regular ship.


I hadn't really thought about that. I did have this result a few days before:

Day Air attack on TF, near Tarawa at 84,95

Japanese aircraft
G3M Nell x 24

Japanese aircraft losses
G3M Nell: 12 damaged

Allied Ships
PT PT-26, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
PG Onondaga, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT PT-23
PT PT-40

Aircraft Attacking:
4 x G3M Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet
4 x G3M Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet

I always wonder how one PT boat could take 3 torps? I guess there was not much left.

(in reply to RUPD3658)
Post #: 17
RE: OK, a real question - 10/8/2006 2:44:29 PM   
goodboyladdie


Posts: 3469
Joined: 11/18/2005
From: Rendlesham, Suffolk
Status: offline 		I often see them hit by 800kg AP bombs during the PH strike - matchwood anyone?

(in reply to SamCole)
Post #: 18
RE: OK, a real question - 10/8/2006 3:32:22 PM   
Rob Brennan UK


Posts: 3685
Joined: 8/24/2002
From: London UK
Status: offline 		I always wonder how one PT boat could take 3 torps?


The only answers i can conclude is " simultaneously" or " bouncing rubble"

_____________________________

sorry for the spelling . English is my main language , I just can't type . and i'm too lazy to edit :)

(in reply to goodboyladdie)
Post #: 19
RE: OK, a real question - 10/8/2006 10:22:23 PM   
SGT Swanson


Posts: 291
Joined: 4/8/2002
From: Matthews, N.C.
Status: offline 		I am SamCole's opponent.  He actually addressed the problem himself by sinking all of the PGs & PCs that were in that TF. 

I had just moved them into that base with a transport TF.  He hadn't taken the base in question as it is still under ANZAC control.

And yes, that is a bug in the game, and I had agreed not to exploit it.

_____________________________

SGT Swanson
U.S. Army, Infantry
B Co 4/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (87-90)
A Co 5/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (90-93)
B Co 2/502d Inf. 101st Airborne Div. (93-95)

"Because freedom is NEVER free!!"

(in reply to Rob Brennan UK)
Post #: 20
RE: OK, a real question - 10/9/2006 3:15:00 PM   
buzzz123

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ile Maurice
Status: offline
quote:

The disadvantage to your opponant is that by mixing non-PT boats in with the PT boats your AC will now attack both. PT only TFs can only be straffed by fighters. If they are mixed with any other ships they will be attacked like a regular ship.


Is this true? I have seen 'PT boat' squadrons of CL, DD, even BC, and my AC refuse to attack at all. A great tactic for 'evacuating' ships from PI in the first few turns. The only time the AC attack is after the squadron has been engaged by a surface fleet and the non pt boat units are damaged and break of into regular surface combat TFs to withdraw. 

Very frustrationg when force Z turns my invasion fleet into scrap metal, and my AC do nothing but smile and wave because the TF is officially 'PT boats'. 

(in reply to SGT Swanson)
Post #: 21
RE: OK, a real question - 10/9/2006 4:56:26 PM   
SGT Swanson


Posts: 291
Joined: 4/8/2002
From: Matthews, N.C.
Status: offline 		The problem seems to stem from the querty enginge or code that they used to show what ships can be picked from when you click one of the TF Type buttons when creating a new TF at bases.

As for using ACs against PT boats.  We're talking about a bomber that's traveling at around 210 mph trying to drop a 250Kg bomb on a 30' boat that's traveling at 20+ knots (around 30 mph) or better and basically was a Ferrari on water at the time.  As noted, fighters can hit them when strafing at 100' on Naval Attack missions.  

_____________________________

SGT Swanson
U.S. Army, Infantry
B Co 4/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (87-90)
A Co 5/502d Inf. Berlin BDE (90-93)
B Co 2/502d Inf. 101st Airborne Div. (93-95)

"Because freedom is NEVER free!!"

(in reply to buzzz123)
Post #: 22
RE: OK, a real question - 10/10/2006 9:37:05 AM   
buzzz123

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ile Maurice
Status: offline 		So let me get this straight....

Level bombers will ONLY attack a 'PT-boat' TF if their alt is set at 200' or lower - regardless of what ships are ACTUALLY in the TF? So if i create a squadron of 'pt-boats' including BB, BC, CA, CL, DD, etc (but NO actual PT boats) they will be ignored by level bombers unless the alt is 200'. AND, if the bomber altitude IS set to 200' the planes will be obliterated by the AA guns on all the heavies.

And what is more.... my opponent will NEVER know it is officially a PT-boat TF because it does not contain ANY PT-boats - he will just assume his bombers 'chose' not to attack.

Perfect.

Anyone for PBEM???

Now that has got to be THE gamey-est tactic discovered yet.

(in reply to SGT Swanson)
Post #: 23
RE: OK, a real question - 10/10/2006 11:38:05 AM   
Onime No Kyo


Posts: 16842
Joined: 4/28/2004
Status: offline 		Wait a minute here. I thought that it was hard-coded that PT TFs could only contain PT-type ships. You can include PTs in other TF types but only PTs could be in a PT TF. How wrong am I?

_____________________________

"Mighty is the Thread! Great are its works and insane are its inhabitants!" -Brother Mynok

(in reply to buzzz123)
Post #: 24
RE: OK, a real question - 10/10/2006 11:33:08 PM   
pauk


Posts: 4162
Joined: 10/21/2001
From: Zagreb,Croatia
Status: offline 		what i know is:

PTs in PT flotilla will be attacked ONLY with fighers set on naval attack on 100 ft

PTs mixed with other types of ships (let's say : one DD and 5 PTs will be attacked with LBA set on common torpedo altitude and range:)

16 x Betty attacked:

DD Gamey
PT-He he i got you, torp 1, on fire
PT-I worth only one point
PT-I don't care i have 300 PTs in the pool, torp 2, heavy damage (SINKS)
PT-I can repelnish my PTs and sail from base to base
PT-what is so gamey about that???

Onime, yes, you can add PTs to BBs CAs etc....


< Message edited by pauk -- 10/11/2006 12:02:17 AM >

_____________________________


(in reply to Onime No Kyo)
Post #: 25
RE: OK, a real question - 10/11/2006 8:11:34 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Sgt Swanson - PTs in the US Navy were actaully 70-80' long, not 30'.

What I find interesting is that the opening posts here did not support the assumption that including other ships in the PTs TF will allow the PTs to "slam torpedo after torpedo" unimpeded into enemy shipping. I looks like all those PTS scored a single torpedo hit in two encounters... tempest in a teapot anyone?

< Message edited by bradfordkay -- 10/11/2006 8:13:33 AM >

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to pauk)
Post #: 26
RE: OK, a real question - 10/11/2006 2:09:01 PM   
SamCole

 

Posts: 116
Joined: 7/1/2006
Status: offline 		Except that my surface combat tfs would not fire any shells at the PTs. So the assumption is that one non PT with a bunch of PTs would allow all of the PTs to be invisable and not targetable.

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 27
RE: OK, a real question - 10/11/2006 2:29:41 PM   
Ron Saueracker


Posts: 12121
Joined: 1/28/2002
From: Ottawa, Canada OR Zakynthos Island, Greece
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Rob Brennan UK

I always wonder how one PT boat could take 3 torps?


The only answers i can conclude is " simultaneously" or " bouncing rubble"


The accuracy of ordinance, especially air dropped because of the universally maxed out experience levels of the pilots, is off the scale. That is why PTs are hit (despite the fact that a torpedo would generally run under them harmlessly IRL if they even managd to intersect the PTs path). Then again, JFK managed to get struck by a destroyer so who knows, eh?

_____________________________





Yammas from The Apo-Tiki Lounge. Future site of WITP AE benders! And then the s--t hit the fan

(in reply to Rob Brennan UK)
Post #: 28
Page:   [1]
All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> The War Room >> OK, a real question Page: [1]
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.313