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RHS Ki-43-I Oscar

 
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RHS Ki-43-I Oscar - 10/17/2006 7:11:00 AM   
Jukov

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		It might be too few in the data of the game though the cruising range of Ki-43-I Oscar is estimated to be 1200km(2600km/with drop tank).
Post #: 1
RE: RHS Ki-43-I Oscar - 10/17/2006 11:02:37 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		You are correct - investigating. Maybe the drop tanks are missing.

(in reply to Jukov)
Post #: 2
RE: RHS Ki-43-I Oscar - 10/17/2006 11:17:00 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		OK - here is the deal:

The endurance for an Oscar with 2 100 litre drop tanks should be set at 169 minutes (because unseen by us the drop tanks add endurance)

but in fact it was set to only 127 minutes.

This resulted in a range of 540 miles instead of 720 miles. The actual transfer range (ferry range IRL) of an Oscar was 745 miles - but we cannot do a fraction of a hex - so the screen reports round down to the next whole number of hexes times 60. But if you could do the math you would find that the new value yields exactly 745 miles. You cannot do the math - because you don't know what the drop tanks add.

Drop tanks are found only in RHS (or some variant using its aircraft system) because of how hard it is to get ranges right. I created a test bed just for this purpose: to measure range with drop tanks and convert that to base endurance values for entry into the database. Somehow this one was not the right value.

The new value - already set into all 6 scenarios for both Level 5 and Level 6 use - yields a transfer range of 12 hexes = extended range of 4 hexes = normal range of 3 hexes - much better than 9/3/2 as it was. This will appear tomorrow in 5.13/6.13 - which I will release regardless of wether or not it is completely finished. There is a good deal of additional Allied shipping - and I hope for some eratta and other refinements - and now this. If you cannot wait - send me an email address.

(in reply to Jukov)
Post #: 3
RE: RHS Ki-43-I Oscar - 10/17/2006 1:26:46 PM   
CJ Martin

 

Posts: 119
Joined: 5/20/2002
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		The problem I've found with drop tanks is that they add 1 to endurance for every 1 gallon (US) of fuel carried. In other words 1 gallon fuel = 1 minute.

This is clearly wrong. It assumes all aircraft (no matter how many engines) have a fuel burn rate of 60 gals / hour at cruise power. Also, the extra weight and more importantly drag of the drops tanks is not considered. At a minimium, I suggest reducing the "effect" of each drop tank somewhere in the range of 10-30%. You can't just slap drop tanks on aircraft in the editor and assume everything will work out, as many of the max ranges in the game appear to be based on the use of drop tanks already, so adding tanks in the editor will result is some huge (and unrealistic) range gains. El Cid is on the right track here, the only way to do this is aircraft by aircraft. I set up an excel spreadsheet for the same purpose, and it is a fair amount of work. The hardest part is finding accurate max range / cruise speed / configuration (how many and what size tanks) data for each aircraft.

-CJ


(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 4
RE: RHS Ki-43-I Oscar - 10/17/2006 3:18:18 PM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		I agree with CJ:

It is HARD to do this right;

I am not sure he has the algorithm right - it may be one minute per pound or even one minute per litre - and my guess is one minute per pound (the size is really defined in pounds you see) - but he is on the right track: it is one minute per something -

And that is wrong. It is not bad though as an average for a fighter plane with typical tanks - a standard WITP simplification.

What I do is two things:

1) I add the weight of the tanks to the load of the plane: make sure the plane has a max load = drop tanks PLUS its extended range special weapons (INT or EXT). Tanks are ONLY used at extended range: they are not used at normal range.

2) I look up the ferry range of the plane with tanks - and then work the problem backwards: I guess some LOWER than true value for the endurance, plug it in to the test bed, measure the range it gives, and adjust until it is right.

Note that some combinations do NOT work at all: thus a plane with 3 2000 pound drop tanks (say a recon Mosquito)
would require a NEGATIVE endurance - so we cannot use that. I give it to you with 2 2000 pound drop tanks. My ranges are right - but only because I made them right the hard way: you cannot just say "range divided by speed = endurance" if you use drop tanks.

I did not know anyone else was using them! They were always in stock - but not in any mod - until we added them mid way through RHS - as far as I know.

(in reply to CJ Martin)
Post #: 5
RE: RHS Ki-43-I Oscar - 10/17/2006 6:12:30 PM   
CJ Martin

 

Posts: 119
Joined: 5/20/2002
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline 		I'm pretty sure I've seen in other posts that the drop tanks were coded so the "effect" = 1 gallon = 1 minute of endurance, and my (very limited) testing seems to bear that out. The "effect" for sure = gallons, for example if you look at the metric tanks (i.e. 330 liter) the "effect" is 87, which works out correctly. I am pretty sure the weight is used for determining if tanks or bombs are carried at extended ranges (based on the aircrafts max load setting).

I do it the same way El Cid does, find max range and then work backwards. Cruise speed is also a factor here. I also make sure the aircrafts endurance value is greater than the value added by the "effect" of the tanks. Sometimes this means I have to downsize the tanks (i.e. from 150 to 110 gallons) but I think the end result is about as close as we can get under the current system. I'm still testing.

-CJ 

(in reply to el cid again)
Post #: 6
RE: RHS Ki-43-I Oscar - 10/18/2006 2:16:30 AM   
Jukov

 

Posts: 12
Joined: 8/7/2006
Status: offline 		Ki43 seems to have flown for 10.5 hours with drop tank in the experiment that the IJAF experiment part had done.
Moreover, the following figures are recorded in the manual of Ki43I.
Fuel:normal 314L/full loading 564L/drop tank equipment 964L
ground speed        250km/h
fuel input rating   53L/h
ground speed        300km/h
fuel input rating   72L/h
ground speed        350km/h
fuel input rating   100L/h
ground speed        400km/h
fuel input rating   137L/h
The same engine is installed in A6M2 and Ki43.
Ki43 of the airframe is lighter.
Ki43 of the amount of installing of the fuel is more abundant.
Amount equipped with the maximum fuel
Ki43 964L
A6M2 855L
Weight
Ki43 2583kg
A6M2 2757kg

(in reply to CJ Martin)
Post #: 7
RE: RHS Ki-43-I Oscar - 10/18/2006 6:48:10 AM   
el cid again

 

Posts: 16922
Joined: 10/10/2005
Status: offline 		They didn't get the Ki-43 perfected really until level II - at which time range increased to 3200 km (from 1200 km) -
a truly magnificent achievement!

The new data for Ki-43I is now uploading with the Level 5 / 6 .13 comprehensive update

(in reply to Jukov)
Post #: 8
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