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RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/18/2006 12:17:31 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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3rd and last in the series.

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Post #: 31

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/18/2006 12:23:05 PM

CBoehm

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How come the reorg cost of HQs are listed as "1" ?? ...HQs cant be reorganized except by off.chits !

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Post #: 32

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/18/2006 12:28:17 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm

How come the reorg cost of HQs are listed as "1" ?? ...HQs cant be reorganized except by off.chits !

Good question!

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 33

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/18/2006 12:32:24 PM

CBoehm

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I dont know if this is really an error or ambiguity or what, but

in page 2 og tutorial 4, you talk about the NATO symbols ... the GAR units are not consistent since AFAIK they use the nato symbol for a mortar-unit ...

Claus

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 34

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/18/2006 12:48:29 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm
How come the reorg cost of HQs are listed as "1" ?? ...HQs cant be reorganized except by off.chits !

I don't know why there is a "1" listed, but as far as I have played, the HQ units are not reorganizable in MWiF neither.
Steve, maybe you should ask Chris about this one ?

(in reply to CBoehm)

Post #: 35

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/18/2006 12:51:06 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm
I dont know if this is really an error or ambiguity or what, but
in page 2 og tutorial 4, you talk about the NATO symbols ... the GAR units are not consistent since AFAIK�they use the nato symbol for a mortar-unit ...
Claus

Claus, would you happen to know a website, or better to have a picture, or another document, showing all the NATO symbols ?
I found this, but this does not seems complete. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APP-6a

(in reply to CBoehm)

Post #: 36

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/18/2006 1:09:07 PM

CBoehm

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From resources at same Wiki-site and some googling I found these sites

http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures/pictures_natomap14a.html

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/korea/ebb/sym.htm

...from the above it would seem that the GAR symbol is simular to the "gun" symbol shown in link 2, in the bottom of the page under "weapons"...

< Message edited by CBoehm -- 10/18/2006 1:15:08 PM >

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Post #: 37

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/18/2006 8:24:24 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm
How come the reorg cost of HQs are listed as "1" ?? ...HQs cant be reorganized except by off.chits !

I don't know why there is a "1" listed, but as far as I have played, the HQ units are not reorganizable in MWiF neither.
Steve, maybe you should ask Chris about this one ?

I will just have the program check if the unit is an HQ and replace the reorganization cost with NA or -.

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Post #: 38

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/18/2006 8:26:41 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm
From resources at same Wiki-site and some googling I found these sites

http://www.historyofwar.org/Pictures/pictures_natomap14a.html

http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/books/korea/ebb/sym.htm

...from the above it would seem that the GAR symbol is simular to the "gun" symbol shown in link 2, in the bottom of the page under "weapons"...

I am not gonig to change these from what WIF FE uses. Instead I'll simply say, "these are loosely based on NATO symbols and will be referred to as NATO symbols in the tutorials".

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 39

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/18/2006 9:13:48 PM

CBoehm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I am not gonig to change these from what WIF FE uses. Instead I'll simply say, "these are loosely based on NATO symbols and will be referred to as NATO symbols in the tutorials".

sounds good ...

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 40

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 9:53:53 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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3 more pages of text for the 4th tutorial.

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Post #: 41

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 9:55:59 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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The text here is mostly copied from the optional rules writeup for territorials.

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Post #: 42

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 9:57:18 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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3rd and last in the series.

I haven't fixed the pink coloring yet so it is shownig up as translucent.

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Post #: 43

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 10:13:01 AM

CBoehm

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A small correction!??

From text in page 6 of tutorial 4:
"...when building these units, they are lumped together in one pool as 'artillery ' from which a unit is randomly drawn."

Now Im not entirely clear if its just an unclear wording ...or if there is a ruleglitch ...but according to RAW ....

From 22.4.2
"There are 3 types of artillery - anti-tank (AT), anti-aircraft (AA) and field artillery (ART)....They form three new force pools and, like other units, you should sub-divide each of these on the basis of cost..."

Claus

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 44

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 11:03:32 AM

Froonp

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quote:

A small correction!??
From text in page 6 of tutorial 4:
"...when building these units, they are lumped together in one pool as 'artillery ' from which a unit is randomly drawn."

This is true for setup, not for building.

quote:

Now Im not entirely clear if its just an unclear wording ...or if there is a ruleglitch ...but according to RAW ....
From 22.4.2
"There are 3 types of artillery - anti-tank (AT), anti-aircraft (AA) and field artillery (ART)....They form three new force pools and, like other units, you should sub-divide each of these on the basis of cost..."

That's it.

(in reply to CBoehm)

Post #: 45

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 11:16:52 AM

Froonp

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quote:

The text here is mostly copied from the optional rules writeup for territorials.

And, although not clearly written in the rulebook, there is a concensus amongst the WiF FE players that the Territorial units for a country that is conquered is tranfered to the conquering country. Example, when Egypt falls to Italy, all 3 Egyptian Territorials enter the Italian force pool, and the Italian player may built them.
MWiF already works that way.

Also, this should be stressed that they are Minor Country units (except for those from CW Major Powers), and as such have horrible cooperation problems.

Also, maybe it should be written that they represent the local military forces of the colonies of the Major Powers of that time.

Also, it could be said that they are built randomly. It is hinted, but not said.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 46

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 11:18:16 AM

c92nichj

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Twop suggestions:
A) Add a statement about the difference betwen heavy and light AA
B) The last sentence implies that only Finish Swedish andUSSR elite units recieve the winterized bonus. Also mountainers and ski-divs recieve those bonuses.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 47

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 12:02:57 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

The text here is mostly copied from the optional rules writeup for territorials.

And, although not clearly written in the rulebook, there is a concensus amongst the WiF FE players that the Territorial units for a country that is conquered is tranfered to the conquering country. Example, when Egypt falls to Italy, all 3 Egyptian Territorials enter the Italian force pool, and the Italian player may built them.
MWiF already works that way.

Also, this should be stressed that they are Minor Country units (except for those from CW Major Powers), and as such have horrible cooperation problems.

Also, maybe it should be written that they represent the local military forces of the colonies of the Major Powers of that time.

Also, it could be said that they are built randomly. It is hinted, but not said.

I'll repeat, I am not trying to present all the rules in detail for each unit type in this tutorial. My goal is to enable the players to recognize the different unit types when they see them. And give them a sense of what the units represent and their role in the game.

As should be obvious from the first 6 pages of this section on land units, I am: showing pictures, emphasizing the 'NATO' box as the identifier, differentiating between army groups/armies/corps/divisions and between elite/non-elite. My main purpose is to have the player be capable of understanding what each unit/counter is, in game terms. E.g., "that's a motorized infantry corps", "that's a armor HQ", "that's a light anti-aircraft division", "that's a Polish cavalry corps".

There are 36 different land unit types in the game, 4 different sizes, and over 100 different countries that have units. If in this tutorial I can teach the novice to tell them all apart visually, then I will have accomplished a lot. I am not trying to present all the odd pieces of infromation related to each unit type. To do so would almost certainly lose the reader in the abyss of fine detail. There are other tutorials that will explain stacking, movement, combat, cooperation, etc.. Let's get the reader to the point that he knows what we are refering to when we say, for instance, "you can stack 3 land units in a hex, but at least 1 of them must be a division".

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Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 48

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 12:03:54 PM

CBoehm

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Also, this should be stressed that they are Minor Country units (except for those from CW Major Powers), and as such have horrible cooperation problems.

Also, it could be said that they are built randomly. It is hinted, but not said.

Yes, but .... TER belonging to non-homenation / non-territories ...are considered minor units which according to the rules quated below ...

From RAW 9.4 Minor Country Units

"...After a minor country has aligned with you, you can choose to add its units (those not yet set-up) to your major power�s force pools..."

AND

From 24.1.5 Sorting out the counters in the scenariotext...
"...The scenario information may specify that you should add some minor country units (or even some conquered major power units) to your force pools. and the fact that the glowal war scenario does not specify any minors added to forcepool or anything like "eg. all activated minors are considered added to forcepoolprior to setup" ...

-> Would IMO imply that YES TER are build at random ...however, you decide yourself if you want to add each minor to the forcepool ...so its not "entirely" random !

(the reason Im writing lengthy argument is that its my impression that many people faulty assume that all TER are in one forcepool from the beginning )

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 49

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 12:04:51 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

A small correction!??
From text in page 6 of tutorial 4:
"...when building these units, they are lumped together in one pool as 'artillery ' from which a unit is randomly drawn."

This is true for setup, not for building.

quote:

Now Im not entirely clear if its just an unclear wording ...or if there is a ruleglitch ...but according to RAW ....
From 22.4.2
"There are 3 types of artillery - anti-tank (AT), anti-aircraft (AA) and field artillery (ART)....They form three new force pools and, like other units, you should sub-divide each of these on the basis of cost..."

That's it.

I'll correct this because is only true during setup, but I'll do so probably so by making it more vague.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 50

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 12:06:28 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Also, this should be stressed that they are Minor Country units (except for those from CW Major Powers), and as such have horrible cooperation problems.

Also, it could be said that they are built randomly. It is hinted, but not said.

Yes, but .... TER belonging to non-homenation / non-territories ...are considered minor units which according to the rules quated below ...

From RAW 9.4 Minor Country Units

"...After a minor country has aligned with you, you can choose to add its units (those not yet set-up) to your major power�s force pools..."

AND

From 24.1.5 Sorting out the counters in the scenariotext...
"...The scenario information may specify that you should add some minor country units (or even some conquered major power units) to your force pools. and the fact that the glowal war scenario does not specify any minors added to forcepool or anything like "eg. all activated minors are considered added to forcepoolprior to setup" ...

-> Would IMO imply that YES TER are build at random ...however, you decide yourself if you want to add each minor to the forcepool ...so its not "entirely" random !

(the reason Im writing lengthy argument is that its my impression that many people faulty assume that all TER are in one forcepool from the beginning )

Rules questions should be given to Peter (PAK####).

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to CBoehm)

Post #: 51

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 12:13:01 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

Twop suggestions:
A) Add a statement about the difference betwen heavy and light AA
B) The last sentence implies that only Finish Swedish andUSSR elite units recieve the winterized bonus. Also mountainers and ski-divs recieve those bonuses.

A)
The difference between light and heavy AA are covered in detail in the writeup on the optional rule for Artillery. It is long and complicated and requires a thorough understanding of air missions.

At this point in the tutorials, the reader hasn't even seen what an air unit looks like, so discussing AA fire into different hexes and/or effectiveness against armor in land combat is too much detail too soon.

B)
I'll correct the last sentence, but I don't know how at this point. There is very little room available for text and I am loathe to add another page. 4 straight pages of looking at different unit types seems to me to be pretty heavy already. But thank you for pointing out the error(s).

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 52

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 12:37:44 PM

c92nichj

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Text suggestions:
a) ....For example, the left unit is light AA and the other 3 are heavy AA (more effective against high altitude bombers)

b) The bottom row show winterized units: 2 ski divisions and 2 elite USSR army corps units. Mountaineers, ski troops, Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, and elite USSR units are winterized and recieve bonuses when fighting in snow or blizzard.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 53

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 1:01:34 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: CBoehm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp
Also, this should be stressed that they are Minor Country units (except for those from CW Major Powers), and as such have horrible cooperation problems.

Also, it could be said that they are built randomly. It is hinted, but not said.

Yes, but .... TER belonging to non-homenation / non-territories ...are considered minor units which according to the rules quated below ...

From RAW 9.4 Minor Country Units

"...After a minor country has aligned with you, you can choose to add its units (those not yet set-up) to your major power�s force pools..."

AND

From 24.1.5 Sorting out the counters in the scenariotext...
"...The scenario information may specify that you should add some minor country units (or even some conquered major power units) to your force pools. and the fact that the glowal war scenario does not specify any minors added to forcepool or anything like "eg. all activated minors are considered added to forcepoolprior to setup" ...

-> Would IMO imply that YES TER are build at random ...however, you decide yourself if you want to add each minor to the forcepool ...so its not "entirely" random !

(the reason Im writing lengthy argument is that its my impression that many people faulty assume that all TER are in one forcepool from the beginning )

Claus, this was already clarified that Harry that TERR are always part of your force pool, you can't choose not to add them. I had personaly asked him a few years ago. I have no time to search for the clarification right now to quote it to you, but I could if you want, later.

TERR are in one forcepool from the beginning.

< Message edited by Froonp -- 10/19/2006 1:03:12 PM >

(in reply to CBoehm)

Post #: 54

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 1:10:10 PM

CBoehm

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i'll take your word for it ....

but I would still like to see a link to the clarification in case there are other things I missed ....

thanks
Claus

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 55

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/19/2006 8:02:36 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: c92nichj

Text suggestions:
a) ....For example, the left unit is light AA and the other 3 are heavy AA (more effective against high altitude bombers)

b) The bottom row show winterized units: 2 ski divisions and 2 elite USSR army corps units. Mountaineers, ski troops, Swedish, Finnish, Norwegian, and elite USSR units are winterized and recieve bonuses when fighting in snow or blizzard.

Thanks. I'll try fit these changes in.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to c92nichj)

Post #: 56

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/21/2006 12:55:14 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Here are the last two pages of this tutorial. I still have to write the text for page 7, which I expect to do tomorrow.

The graphic here has been shrunken somewhat, which is why the unit images are a little out of focus. I'll do better for the finished product.

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Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

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Post #: 57

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/21/2006 12:57:12 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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Last in the series. This screen shot did not have to be modified to fit on the page.

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Post #: 58

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/21/2006 6:22:50 PM

lomyrin

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I think that the unit size information should still be shown in this last tutorial screen. For stacking purposes the visual knowledge of which units are Division sized is important. The Russians do have some units that one might think are Divison sized but are not.

Lars

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Post #: 59

RE: Tutorial #4 - 10/21/2006 6:47:17 PM

Froonp

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Would it be possible to choose the type of counter resolution for the zoom level ?
Because I would prefer to still have the detailed counters at zoom 4. Maybe the medium at a smaller size, but zoom 4 is still good for detailed units imo.

(in reply to lomyrin)

Post #: 60