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No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 10/24/2006 8:35:05 PM

iarodus

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Joined: 10/24/2006
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I don't know if I didn't do something right, but it doesn't look like there was an equipment update to the game database. Am I missing something? If not then it's a fairly disappointing oversight, I have the original CoW and I expected at least some updates. True, Girzzleys and LAV's can be used for Strykers but what about the F-35, J-10, Eurofighter, PAC-3, and even longer term systems like FCS and FRES (hypothetical versions of course). At least you didn't need these in the original to wargame a current war (though they would have nice even then), but that is no longer the case. It isn't even possible to accurately do something like Lebanon 06 since there aren't any Merkava IV's and Achzarit/Puma/Nagmachon in the database. Oh, there does appear to be the T-64A added to the equipment database so I guess NATO-WP games can be that much more accurate. Is there no way to include you're own equipment? If this is the case, and I'm not just being an idiot, it's very annoying to have just paid $40 for the addition of T-64A�s to a game I bought 6 years ago (admittedly the AA works much better, though it only matters in more modern games where the old equipment is a problem anyways, and the AI is improved, but it's not worth $40).

< Message edited by iarodus -- 10/24/2006 8:38:22 PM >

Post #: 1

RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 10/24/2006 10:47:39 PM

golden delicious

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There is an user-made equipment editor for TOAW-COW (the BioEditor). There are moves afoot to develop something similar for TOAW III.

quote:

the AA works much better, though it only matters in more modern games where the old equipment is a problem anyways

It matters in any scenario with aircraft. Trust me.

_____________________________

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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Post #: 2

RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 10/25/2006 12:09:15 AM

TOCarroll

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Not only are moves afoot, but (speaking as an uninformed lurker), from the TDG Forum, it looks like they are coming together. Is this true? From what I read (overheard), one of the main concern it clearing room for Ralph (who has soooo much free time

) to take at look at the (alpha or beta) version of the upgraded editor to see if it can be squeezed into the TAOW3 code realistically (e.g. time and cost effictive). Do I have it approximately correct, or should I keep my day job & go back to lurking?

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Post #: 3

RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/19/2006 11:24:47 AM

vahauser

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From: Texas
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iarodus,

I asked the same question several months ago.

I am still waiting for a unit editor before I shell out $40 for this game.

The day that a working unit editor for TOAW-III becomes available is the day that I get my credit card out.

But until then I am still waiting...

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Post #: 4

RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/19/2006 6:45:40 PM

ColinWright

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Joined: 10/13/2005
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quote:

...I am still waiting for a unit editor before I shell out $40 for this game.

The day that a working unit editor for TOAW-III becomes available is the day that I get my credit card out.

But until then I am still waiting...

Ditto

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Post #: 5

RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/19/2006 7:55:59 PM

ralphtricky

Posts: 6685
Joined: 7/27/2003
From: Colorado Springs
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TOCarroll
Not only are moves afoot, but (speaking as an uninformed lurker), from the TDG Forum, it looks like they are coming together. Is this true? From what I read (overheard), one of the main concern it clearing room for Ralph (who has soooo much free time ) to take at look at the (alpha or beta) version of the upgraded editor to see if it can be squeezed into the TAOW3 code realistically (e.g. time and cost effictive). Do I have it approximately correct, or should I keep my day job & go back to lurking?

Not exaclty correct, we're trying to do something simpler that won't involve modding executables. Right now, it looks good, and it's being tested to make sure it doesn't have any unintended consequences. Of course, I can't promise when it will be out.

_____________________________

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TOAW IV Programmer
Blog: http://operationalwarfare.com
---
My comments are my own, and do not represent the views of any other person or entity. Nothing that I say should be construed in any way as a promise of anything.

(in reply to TOCarroll)

Post #: 6

RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/19/2006 9:04:22 PM

TOCarroll

Posts: 215
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From: College Station, Texas
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Sorry Ralph, I tend to get a bit hyperbolic at times.

My point is, progress is being made. Let's all hope for a piece de resistance, rather than a coup de gras

! (Just kidding folks, from the lurker's point of view, it should work, and is a clever work around a difficult problem.

Many thanks to Ralph and helpers for the hard work.

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Post #: 7

RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/19/2006 9:12:18 PM

vahauser

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ralphtrick,

I am grateful for your efforts. I have waited this long and I can wait a while longer.

I have confidence that the unit editor you come up with will be well worth the wait.

I'm looking forward to pulling my new credit card out of my wallet when your unit editor is released.

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Post #: 8

RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/20/2006 12:01:27 AM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

quote:

ORIGINAL: TOCarroll
Not only are moves afoot, but (speaking as an uninformed lurker), from the TDG Forum, it looks like they are coming together. Is this true? From what I read (overheard), one of the main concern it clearing room for Ralph (who has soooo much free time ) to take at look at the (alpha or beta) version of the upgraded editor to see if it can be squeezed into the TAOW3 code realistically (e.g. time and cost effictive). Do I have it approximately correct, or should I keep my day job & go back to lurking?

Not exaclty correct, we're trying to do something simpler that won't involve modding executables. Right now, it looks good, and it's being tested to make sure it doesn't have any unintended consequences. Of course, I can't promise when it will be out.

It'd be great if you went the other way and made something more ambitious that could produce more profoundly modified executables.

For example, I was thinking about how to model the ability of armies in pre-1950 times to operate in deep desert -- and the importance of holding oases and things when they do. Obviously units stuck out in the sand dunes are going to slowly expire.

The (rather short-lived) solution I hit upon was to make all the non-oasis deep desert hexes contaminated. Then units that couldn't end their turn in oases and such would degrade in terms of supply and readiness.

...too bad contaminated hexes turn out to impose a severe movement penalty. What I'd like to have is something that would let me edit that out. In fact, editable terrain in general is something that should be available. Doesn't seem like it should be too hard to provide, either. Some slots for 'user defined terrain' which lets one specify the tiles to be used and the characteristics of the terrain.

< Message edited by ColinWright -- 11/20/2006 12:08:04 AM >

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/20/2006 3:23:01 AM

TOCarroll

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See my response about players wanting a more "elegant solution" in the TAOW3 main form. If it works, its a big step forward, and may even nudge some folks at TDG to come up with something better.

Personally I think an 8 year-old game (with mods) holding down as many fans is pretty incredible in itself.

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/20/2006 3:39:03 AM

Legun

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From: Cracow, Poland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
we're trying to do something simpler that won't involve modding executables. Right now, it looks good, and it's being tested to make sure it doesn't have any unintended consequences. Of course, I can't promise when it will be out.

What's a good news!

(in reply to ralphtricky)

Post #: 11

RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/20/2006 7:38:53 AM

Silvanski

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From: Belgium, residing in TX-USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick
we're trying to do something simpler that won't involve modding executables.

That would be good news for a dumbo like me

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Post #: 12

RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/20/2006 8:21:11 AM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TOCarroll

See my response about players wanting a more "elegant solution" in the TAOW3 main form. If it works, its a big step forward, and may even nudge some folks at TDG to come up with something better. Personally I think an 8 year-old game (with mods) holding down as many fans is pretty incredible in itself.

Well, I'm all for it -- if it permits at least what the Bioeditor currently permits. Ralph's characterization of the change as 'something simpler' doesn't exactly guarantee that.

My concerns, of course, relate to my own scenarios. Right now, I use weapons modified in various ways, altered weapon type tiles, and altered graphics titles. I'd just as soon upgrade to TOAW III and take advantage of what it offers -- but I'd want to be able to cary over changes of the types I've enumerated. To put it differently, while I'd be happy to convert Seelowe to TOAW III, the game wouldn't be worth the candle if I had to lose modified panzers and other weapons, 'polder,' 'uplands,' and seaborne supply routes, usable coastal defence guns, and indivisible companies.

Matrix is of course free to do whatever it likes. I'm merely stating what I would prefer to see. I don't particularly want to be faced with a choice between continuing to use an obsolescent system and using one that while improved in some ways, would actually represent a step backwards in others.

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/20/2006 12:07:08 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Well, I'm all for it -- if it permits at least what the Bioeditor currently permits. Ralph's characterization of the change as 'something simpler' doesn't exactly guarantee that.

I wouldn't worry.

quote:

My concerns, of course, relate to my own scenarios. Right now, I use weapons modified in various ways, altered weapon type tiles, and altered graphics titles.

TOAW III as it stands can do modified graphics- that's never been a problem. You can also change the names of various things, which I think includes terrain types, though this involves something a little elaborate.

quote:

usable coastal defence guns

Again, not a problem. Zero move units do not consume the entire turn in TOAW. So you could do away with your tortuous fix for this problem entirely.

_____________________________

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/20/2006 7:33:51 PM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright

Well, I'm all for it -- if it permits at least what the Bioeditor currently permits. Ralph's characterization of the change as 'something simpler' doesn't exactly guarantee that.

I wouldn't worry.

quote:

My concerns, of course, relate to my own scenarios. Right now, I use weapons modified in various ways, altered weapon type tiles, and altered graphics titles.

TOAW III as it stands can do modified graphics- that's never been a problem. You can also change the names of various things, which I think includes terrain types, though this involves something a little elaborate.

Mm. Well one certainly could modify any tile in any way one wanted, but then how would one get the program to use that tile? If one just replaced the original tile with it, then it would be used by all scenarios -- and no one else could play your scenario as it was intended to be played without similarly permanently altering their game.

The alternative could be to instruct players to copy all tiles and save them elsewhere before replacing the original tiles with yours and launching the scenario. This doesn't really strike me as an improvement over a modified .exe that permits one to just call up different tiles for that particular scenario.

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/20/2006 8:06:22 PM

ralphtricky

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Colin,
I've got some good news for you. I take it that you haven't heard about the per scenatio Graphics, Text, and (to a lesser extent) Sound capabilities that are already in TOAW III?

You don't need to mod the executable to run them. I'm hoping to add per scenario Equipment to that list.

When you start a scenario or turn, TOAW III looks in several known places for the modified files, and uses them instead of the original files.

It should be possible to do something similar with equipment. That means that distributing the scenario will require several sub-folders, but you won't need to mod the executable any more. One downside is that both players will need to install the scenario, but I think that most people would anyway.

Ralph

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Mm. Well one certainly could modify any tile in any way one wanted, but then how would one get the program to use that tile? If one just replaced the original tile with it, then it would be used by all scenarios -- and no one else could play your scenario as it was intended to be played without similarly permanently altering their game.

The alternative could be to instruct players to copy all tiles and save them elsewhere before replacing the original tiles with yours and launching the scenario. This doesn't really strike me as an improvement over a modified .exe that permits one to just call up different tiles for that particular scenario.

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/20/2006 9:47:29 PM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

Colin,
I've got some good news for you. I take it that you haven't heard about the per scenatio Graphics, Text, and (to a lesser extent) Sound capabilities that are already in TOAW III?

You don't need to mod the executable to run them. I'm hoping to add per scenario Equipment to that list.

When you start a scenario or turn, TOAW III looks in several known places for the modified files, and uses them instead of the original files. It should be possible to do something similar with equipment. That means that distributing the scenario will require several sub-folders, but you won't need to mod the executable any more. One downside is that both players will need to install the scenario, but I think that most people would anyway.

Ralph

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Mm. Well one certainly could modify any tile in any way one wanted, but then how would one get the program to use that tile? If one just replaced the original tile with it, then it would be used by all scenarios -- and no one else could play your scenario as it was intended to be played without similarly permanently altering their game.

The alternative could be to instruct players to copy all tiles and save them elsewhere before replacing the original tiles with yours and launching the scenario. This doesn't really strike me as an improvement over a modified .exe that permits one to just call up different tiles for that particular scenario.

Does this let you replace the 'Numbers' file and the various unit type files?

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/20/2006 11:42:00 PM

golden delicious

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Does this let you replace the 'Numbers' file and the various unit type files?

Colin asked, sheepishly.

Any graphic file can be replaced.

_____________________________

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"War Studies"
"War? Huh. What is it good for?"
"Absolutely nothing."

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/21/2006 3:07:53 AM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: golden delicious

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
Does this let you replace the 'Numbers' file and the various unit type files?

Colin asked, sheepishly.

Any graphic file can be replaced.

Sure -- but will TOAW III let you call it up? Point is, suppose I want to replace the higher level HQ icon with a 'mountain artillery' icon for whatever reason.

Now, will TOAW III somehow let my scenario call up that icon -- or would people who wanted to play my scenario have to copy their original higher level HQ icon to another file and then replace it with mine in the graphics folder every time they wanted to play my scenario?

Right now, I can create a modified scenario that calls up my 'Numsee' file rather than the 'numbers' file. You can chuck 'Numsee' in your graphics folder and forget it. It'll only get called up if you open my modified .exe; other people's scenarios will run just fine and still call up the original 'Numbers' file.

So does OPART III let you do something similar -- or would those who wanted to play my scenarios as designed have to copy and paste, replace, and then restore every time they wanted to first play 'Seelowe' and then go back to 'Fire in the East'?

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/21/2006 3:26:04 AM

TOCarroll

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My more immeadiate concern is that it come with an "Idiots Guide to Unit MOdification". I know Matrix will not issue something that wont work. It may not please EVERY grognard, but they usually own COW anyway. It sounds like it (unit editor thingee) will work for me, if it comes with instructions.

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/21/2006 3:31:56 AM

freeboy

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Yep, try editing an EASY decisive battles game.. then adding ai.. good luck.. ok it can be done but guides are nice.. and thnk you to ssg and Matrix.. and those others who allow us to mod and create to our hearts desires...

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/21/2006 3:55:57 AM

ralphtricky

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
So does OPART III let you do something similar -- or would those who wanted to play my scenarios as designed have to copy and paste, replace, and then restore every time they wanted to first play 'Seelowe' and then go back to 'Fire in the East'?

They need to copy the changed graphics files to TOAW\AltGraphics\Seelowe or TOAW\AltGraphics\Fire in the East. That's all there is to it. Both players in a PBEM game need to do this.With any luck, we'll be able to do equipment in a similar fashion. The plan is that TOAW will warn you if you're playing with different equipment files, but it won't warn you if you're playing with different graphics files.

Ralph

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/21/2006 4:27:54 AM

sstevens06

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

quote:

ORIGINAL: ColinWright
So does OPART III let you do something similar -- or would those who wanted to play my scenarios as designed have to copy and paste, replace, and then restore every time they wanted to first play 'Seelowe' and then go back to 'Fire in the East'?

They need to copy the changed graphics files to TOAW\AltGraphics\Seelowe or TOAW\AltGraphics\Fire in the East. That's all there is to it. Both players in a PBEM game need to do this.With any luck, we'll be able to do equipment in a similar fashion. The plan is that TOAW will warn you if you're playing with different equipment files, but it won't warn you if you're playing with different graphics files.

Ralph

So you're going to 'externalize' the equipment database from the executable. Seems like a reasonable approach to me.

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/21/2006 4:30:44 AM

ralphtricky

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TOCarroll
My more immeadiate concern is that it come with an "Idiots Guide to Unit MOdification". I know Matrix will not issue something that wont work. It may not please EVERY grognard, but they usually own COW anyway. It sounds like it (unit editor thingee) will work for me, if it comes with instructions.

What instructions are there for BioEd? That should be an excellent starting point.

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/21/2006 6:05:29 AM

TOCarroll

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To figure out how to use Bio Ed, one merely begs the forum gurus at TDG. I would assume the same tactic works at Matrix (it has before) ASSUMING (in both forms) that one has read the realavent articles and posts. Postees with 4 or five stars take a dim view or repeat stupid questions

(although they generally suffer the first one or two.

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/21/2006 7:36:07 AM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TOCarroll

To figure out how to use Bio Ed, one merely begs the forum gurus at TDG. I would assume the same tactic works at Matrix (it has before) ASSUMING (in both forms) that one has read the realavent articles and posts. Postees with 4 or five stars take a dim view or repeat stupid questions (although they generally suffer the first one or two.

Well, part of the problem is that we don't really how it works. That is to say, it's not a commercial-grade program, it doesn't come with instructions, and when we hit a bump, we figure out what we're supposed to do at that point -- then forget what we did until we hit the bump again.

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/21/2006 7:37:20 AM

ColinWright

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ralphtrick

quote:

ORIGINAL: TOCarroll
My more immeadiate concern is that it come with an "Idiots Guide to Unit MOdification". I know Matrix will not issue something that wont work. It may not please EVERY grognard, but they usually own COW anyway. It sounds like it (unit editor thingee) will work for me, if it comes with instructions.

What instructions are there for BioEd? That should be an excellent starting point.

Lol. As noted above, there aren't any.

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/21/2006 11:03:44 AM

Telumar

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@ Colin: You can even rename the tiles you are using in your scenario by using a modified .dll like Jean Luc did in the french version of 'Operation Lion de Mer 2004' that comes with the game. Just name it like the scenario and put it in the scenario's folder. You can rename almost everything in the game this way.
You just need the language Kit from Matrix, rename what you want to and make your own Seel�we.dll. You can use the MS VC++ Express Edition (free download from Microsoft).

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Post #: 28

RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/21/2006 3:56:48 PM

TOCarroll

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OK.....serious question from me (for once)

! I have all the Bio Ed files, and have read all the material on the forms (both TDG and Matrix). After I install this monster, make the required changes, and start up the beast. WHAT do I do next? Just jump into the (unit)editor?

OR would it make more sense to have a SECOND COPY of TAOW3 in ANOTHER DIRECTORY (WITH A REVISED NAME (something clever like TAOW3.1)

?

There is a scenario that I want to modify....it is fine except the values on some of the units are too strong. I thought that might be a (fairly simple) test. OR should I wait 'till something official (elegant or ugly) comes out?

Another programming moron.

PS Thanks for all the hard work.

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RE: No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for? - 11/21/2006 4:08:18 PM

Telumar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TOCarroll

OK.....serious question from me (for once)! I have all the Bio Ed files, and have read all the material on the forms (both TDG and Matrix). After I install this monster, make the required changes, and start up the beast. WHAT do I do next? Just jump into the (unit)editor?

OR would it make more sense to have a SECOND COPY of TAOW3 in ANOTHER DIRECTORY (WITH A REVISED NAME (something clever like TAOW3.1)?

Okay. Stop here. Am i missing something here? The opart3.exe can't be loaded into bioed. Only the cracked opart cw.exes (A century of Warfare) that are included in the download can be loaded into bioed and can be modified.
You can however use the opart cw.exe and toaw3's graphics to have your own 'cheap' ACOW if you add a proper key to your registry..

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Norm Koger's The Operational Art Of War III >> Scenario Design >> No Equipment Update? What did I pay $40 for?

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