RE: Release 3: In Development.

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [Sports] >> Maximum-Football 2.0 >> Maximum-Football Support >> RE: Release 3: In Development.

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RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/15/2006 7:30:31 PM

dreamtheatervt

Posts: 483
Joined: 4/22/2006
From: Virginia
Status: offline

There is an average of 1.5 trades during the season over the last 6 seasons in the NFL. The trades that do happen are never blockbuster trades either, it is usually a team trading a backup to a team that got the injury bug at that position for a 7th round pick. Most trades happen in the off-season, and involve draft picks. Player for player trades only happen in the off-season, and rarely if that. That's just the reality of the salery cap era NFL. You are making a mountain out of a anthill.

Please, use standard font size...you look like a yelling lunatic when you type in large type, and many people won't take you seriously because of it.

(in reply to GWsFBAStartOct292006)

Post #: 121

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/15/2006 7:44:15 PM

GWsFBAStartOct292006

Posts: 122
Joined: 3/6/2006
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dreamtheatervt,
�
�� That trading average where you get it from, The NFL's official history website? If so what URL? I would think it would more, not much but more. Even if it is .0000000000000000001 for 30-years, it is still available to The NFL; however, it is not available to M-F customers. Plus, who has determine what is blockbuster trades and what is not? Wrong media members? ESPN members and etc? NE Patriots trade of WR Deion Branch to Seattle may not look like a big trade to some; however, it is because he does the what needs to get done and huge team player, and was traded for a 1st-rounder (extremely valueable).
�
�� I guess it work for a extremely small group (hopefully for M-F it does not become their customer base), that do not real want to participate in what FootBall is. Fine, if they do; however, do not carter a FB Game to them, make it an turn on or turn off feature like FBP '98 did. Easy and simple solution, that satisfies everyone.

BLANK THEM, IF THEY DO NOT! it is called emotional reactions, if they do not like it, go try convince someone else to allow their emotional reactions to be controlled by them.

< Message edited by GWsFBAStartOct292006 -- 10/15/2006 8:14:25 PM >

_____________________________

Respecting/Helping Members Thanks. 'Great White'-Shark-Former HS Coach/College Sports Radio Host. Owner Great Whites FootBall Association-Play/Watch/Name Players. Switch FBP '98 2 Maximum FootBall-Eliminate bugs, FBP '98, Madden NFL '07 & Utilities h

(in reply to dreamtheatervt)

Post #: 122

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/15/2006 8:19:42 PM

boggyjr

Posts: 89
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Edmonton, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: nmleague

This version of the game, including release 3, has no trading of players, and is not something David is considering at this time.

What he said... ^^^

I don't mind the fact that there is no trading players. Lets get the fundamentals with the sim engine and stuff worked out before we add all of this fancy stuff...

(in reply to nmleague)

Post #: 123

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/15/2006 10:06:41 PM

GWsFBAStartOct292006

Posts: 122
Joined: 3/6/2006
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boggyjr,

Man you have one wacked view of Football fundamentals. Plus, What all the other Fundamentals, that affect playing Football games?

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Post #: 124

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/16/2006 12:54:28 AM

galleyfan2005

Posts: 7
Joined: 8/8/2006
Status: offline

I bought the cfl game in '99(crap game) and was really looking forward to this one when it was announced in 2001-02 and kept waiting and waiting like everyone. I had hoped it would at least be as good as FBPRO98, but after so many years of waiting it finally came out and I am glad I did not buy it right away because of all the bugs. So I thought I'd get the B3 version soon because I like the promise of the game but I now know I will never buy it if you can not even trade players.
The draft sounds rather suspect also. This game seems like it was made in 1996, not 2006. If all you people want to put more money in David's pockets then fine. But atleast make the guy make a game that works and has basic football 101 features. Not worth the wait any more. My league was going to go with this. You lost 32 sales.

galleyfan2005

(in reply to GWsFBAStartOct292006)

Post #: 125

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/16/2006 1:28:27 AM

grrncore

Posts: 78
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

man! so many customers waiting for the next patch and you guys are just giving them to delay the patch more. quit it please. let them finish the frikin patch.

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FORMER MILLIONAIRE---" i had a million dollars but i spend it all"
---"i really don't care"

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Post #: 126

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/16/2006 1:36:12 AM

GWsFBAStartOct292006

Posts: 122
Joined: 3/6/2006
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galleyfan2005,

There was a CFL '99 game??

Finally!

Hey, I now have all this magical power to delay patches releases. grrncore, Do you hear yourself, patch, a patch. that is the problem, needing a bunch of patches, for each release.

< Message edited by GWsFBAStartOct292006 -- 10/17/2006 6:20:01 PM >

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Post #: 127

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/16/2006 1:57:46 AM

grrncore

Posts: 78
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline

yes i know what i said.

_____________________________

FORMER MILLIONAIRE---" i had a million dollars but i spend it all"
---"i really don't care"

(in reply to GWsFBAStartOct292006)

Post #: 128

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/17/2006 5:36:14 AM

boggyjr

Posts: 89
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Edmonton, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: dreamtheatervt

There is an average of 1.5 trades during the season over the last 6 seasons in the NFL. The trades that do happen are never blockbuster trades either, it is usually a team trading a backup to a team that got the injury bug at that position for a 7th round pick. Most trades happen in the off-season, and involve draft picks. Player for player trades only happen in the off-season, and rarely if that. That's just the reality of the salery cap era NFL. You are making a mountain out of a anthill.

Please, use standard font size...you look like a yelling lunatic when you type in large type, and many people won't take you seriously because of it.

GWsFBAStartOct292006, consider that. Also, because you can release and add players from free agency is basically like trading. I don't care if I have to click 5 extra buttons and spend an extra 30 seconds on the process...

And no, I don't have a whacked out view of football fundamentals. I would rather have David and the beta team spend more time on the actual on-the-field gameplay department than working on the GM stuff. If you control all the other teams in the league, whats an extra 30 secconds spent on moving a player?

(in reply to dreamtheatervt)

Post #: 129

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/17/2006 6:30:41 PM

GWsFBAStartOct292006

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Joined: 3/6/2006
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boggyjr, Read my posts completely,
�
I already addressed your first-point in RE: I Do Not Know About A FB Game That is in It's Multi... - 10/16/2006 3:13:21 PM or now even I have little simpthy (sp?) towards Mr. Winters (and any other Matrix! YOUR BLANK RIGHT I AM MAD AND FRUSTRATED. You disagree, fine, but I or everyone else on here does not need to read the same points a thousand times, simply because you disagree.

< Message edited by GWsFBAStartOct292006 -- 10/17/2006 6:39:39 PM >

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Post #: 130

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/17/2006 10:58:10 PM

Marauders

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline

quote:

galleyfan stated: So I thought I'd get the B3 version soon because I like the promise of the game but I now know I will never buy it if you can not even trade players.

You can trade players. It takes about a dozen mouse clicks and 30 seconds.

quote:

The draft sounds rather suspect also.

There are now team profiles for each team that includes how the team should draft and how the roster should be filled out after the draft.

quote:

This game seems like it was made in 1996, not 2006.

It isn't a game created just in 2006, but I don't recall any football game with 3D graphics in 1996.

quote:

If all you people want to put more money in David's pockets then fine. But atleast make the guy make a game that works and has basic football 101 features.

My guess is that David didn't become an instant millionaire from Maximum-Football. Being an independent programmer can be a tough road.

quote:

Not worth the wait any more. My league was going to go with this. You lost 32 sales.

You have not even seen Release 3. Why would you base your decision on replies from someone who knows little about the game?

My league has been waiting as well, and we will be going ahead with Release 3.

(in reply to GWsFBAStartOct292006)

Post #: 131

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/18/2006 12:13:29 AM

local8h

Posts: 801
Joined: 5/28/2006
From: INDLAND EMPIRE
Status: offline

In my opinion the graphics are better than any FBPRO releases especially FB98( it doest even come close to Max FB) MAXFB GRAPHICS KICKS BUTT.

In my league i trade players.I simply use the Utility set that came with the game.

You know its my money and ill do what ever i wan t with it and i didnt gave it to Mr. Winter for free, I got his game.

I too is waiting for release 3 and i would appriciate if you guys stop arguing and finish the R3, SO ALL OF US CAN START ENJOYING IT.

< Message edited by local8h -- 10/18/2006 12:16:01 AM >

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Post #: 132

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/20/2006 5:43:32 AM

lloydsmods

Posts: 3
Joined: 10/8/2006
Status: offline

Lets not overdo the adulation for the graphics. Maximum Football's graphics are the game's biggest drawback, in my opinion. Electric football (for those of you old enough to remember such a thing) was in 3D, so to speak, but that didn't make it great to look at. At least the players in Max FB don't buzz. You could render a bunch of 3D X's and O's and move them around the field, or some kind of top-down view with little icons moving about and it would be about as good. And the closer the camera gets, the worse it looks. Couldn't Matrix offer some motion capture assistance with the animations? I love the ability to customize so much, but its not pretty to look at.

Anyway, I didn't buy it for the graphics. I'm an old FBPro-er who has been looking in vain for something as deep to replace it since Sierra Sports threw FBPro99 in the crapper.

(in reply to local8h)

Post #: 133

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/20/2006 6:44:42 AM

David Winter

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
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Motion Capture is extremely expensive.

(in reply to lloydsmods)

Post #: 134

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/20/2006 4:36:44 PM

GWsFBAStartOct292006

Posts: 122
Joined: 3/6/2006
Status: offline

lloydsmods�and everyone,
�
�� I am with you man ; most of them maybe too young to remember and to block out�those forum's members that want you to never realize the following (political spin tactics):
�
1.�that in '98 FBP was creating and releasing the '99 version to marginize EAS and Madden. EAS and Madden was second rate to FBP. �Yes, it failed and was cancelled; but at least FBP's purchasers pushed their game to try to be a real FB Game (including Simmulation) and made EAS and Madden second rate and to this date still second-rate to '98,
�
2. Matrix and M-F is only to happy to have their purchasers/cash cows�of second rate PATCHES (that constantly ignore what needs to be fixed, because of profit* and allow us to battle on all the game's forums-misdirection), not versions,
�
3. EAS and Madden is only to happy to LOL at the BLANKS that support M-F (and carry-on misdirected forum battles-misdirection)�and most of FBP have given-up on you and M-F ever really becoming something,
�
4. If you show not just me, lloydsmods, but�FBP fans and once purchasers (secretly or not secretly dieing for a replacement to FBP '98) and (only needed is) some EAS and Madden purchasers that Matrix and M-F is for real,then we can make EAS and Madden second rate and�stick with it (not forum shots at each other-misdirection, not our real enemy helping to push M-F to proper�versions direction and management)�marginized.**
�
*-

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/19/2006 11:44:42 PM� �

showPicture("10/19/2006 11:44:42 PM",0,0,0,1122577,267)

David Winter

titleAndStar(1904,0,1,false,"","")
Moderator

�

Posts: 1904
Joined: 11/23/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline
Motion Capture is extremely expensive.
�
Think, not react, about these questions:

1. How much did you spend in M-F only true release and version?

2. How much have you so far spent on The M-F patches, since, that are supposed to FIX The M-F only true release and version?

3. How much will you spend in the near future on subpar patches/M-F releases to FIX The M-F only true release and version, after patch 3 does not cut it?

**- causing EAS' football games to change into only one needed game that competes with the better than FBP-M-F.

< Message edited by GWsFBAStartOct292006 -- 10/20/2006 4:59:10 PM >

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Post #: 135

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/21/2006 4:11:54 AM

rcleslie

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Joined: 6/8/2006
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To anyone interested:

I am not all that concerned with super graphics. I do enjoy messing with uniforms and therefore like graphics at least sophisticated enough to reveal different uniforms as opposed to colored squares and circles. The current MaxFB graphics do just fine for me in this regard. I do not need to see the grimmacing and sweat on some tackle's face, etc. In fact I find such overly realistic graphics distracting. I don't need close-ups. As a coach only type I prefer a sidelines or press box view. The AI is the most important thing for me. I want more or less realistic outcomes and stats. If the graphics are consistent with those outcomes that is all to the good, e.g., no-gainers should look like no-gainers, etc. For me the current version of MaxFB is ok if not perfect (what is perfect?). If the new playbooks are good I will probably not try to make my own plays for awhile. (I gave it up with FBP.) I have had a good time putting together playbooks with the current set for MaxFB. Also, I have no interest in having MaxFB "kick ass" re Madden or any other game. I just want it to be a good game. It has been my experience that focusing on making a good game with user input, etc. will do the job without worrying about what the competition is up to. For what it's worth I never liked Madden because I could not simulate a college season to my satisfaction. Simulating pro football doesn't interest me much. Someday it would be nice to have a college mode in which players depart after four years (red-shirting might be included with JV teams, etc.) For myself I am perfectly happy creating college conferences and then going to team websites to get the data. I am even happier creating fictional conferences (How about the Carfax College Counts v. the Helsing College Stakers for a rivalry?). The challenge with that has been coming up with rating systems that produce decent competition, etc. Does anybody else do this sort of thing? How do you do it?

Keep up the good work, and remember folks, it's just a game, it's just a game!

(in reply to GWsFBAStartOct292006)

Post #: 136

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/21/2006 8:10:58 AM

boggyjr

Posts: 89
Joined: 8/22/2006
From: Edmonton, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcleslie

To anyone interested:

I am not all that concerned with super graphics. I do enjoy messing with uniforms and therefore like graphics at least sophisticated enough to reveal different uniforms as opposed to colored squares and circles. The current MaxFB graphics do just fine for me in this regard. I do not need to see the grimmacing and sweat on some tackle's face, etc. In fact I find such overly realistic graphics distracting. I don't need close-ups. As a coach only type I prefer a sidelines or press box view. The AI is the most important thing for me. I want more or less realistic outcomes and stats. If the graphics are consistent with those outcomes that is all to the good, e.g., no-gainers should look like no-gainers, etc. For me the current version of MaxFB is ok if not perfect (what is perfect?). If the new playbooks are good I will probably not try to make my own plays for awhile. (I gave it up with FBP.) I have had a good time putting together playbooks with the current set for MaxFB. Also, I have no interest in having MaxFB "kick ass" re Madden or any other game. I just want it to be a good game. It has been my experience that focusing on making a good game with user input, etc. will do the job without worrying about what the competition is up to. For what it's worth I never liked Madden because I could not simulate a college season to my satisfaction. Simulating pro football doesn't interest me much. Someday it would be nice to have a college mode in which players depart after four years (red-shirting might be included with JV teams, etc.) For myself I am perfectly happy creating college conferences and then going to team websites to get the data. I am even happier creating fictional conferences (How about the Carfax College Counts v. the Helsing College Stakers for a rivalry?). The challenge with that has been coming up with rating systems that produce decent competition, etc. Does anybody else do this sort of thing? How do you do it?

Keep up the good work, and remember folks, it's just a game, it's just a game!

Exactly!

< Message edited by boggyjr -- 10/21/2006 8:12:44 AM >

(in reply to rcleslie)

Post #: 137

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/22/2006 5:43:28 AM

CFL_FAN_7

Posts: 428
Joined: 1/13/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: boggyjr

quote:

ORIGINAL: nmleague

This version of the game, including release 3, has no trading of players, and is not something David is considering at this time.

What he said... ^^^

I don't mind the fact that there is no trading players. Lets get the fundamentals with the sim engine and stuff worked out before we add all of this fancy stuff...

-trading players isn't a fancy feautre, it's sometihng that should be automatically in the game

(in reply to boggyjr)

Post #: 138

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/22/2006 6:57:15 AM

Tbird

Posts: 1187
Joined: 12/15/2004
Status: offline

Yeah I don't care about the graphics either if anything that should be low on the to do list

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Post #: 139

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/22/2006 7:05:09 AM

local8h

Posts: 801
Joined: 5/28/2006
From: INDLAND EMPIRE
Status: offline

Well I dont care much about trading for i could do that using the utilities. I dont care about the graphics for its fine the way it is. What i do mind is waiting for that PATCH....

For All i want is the bugs to be cleaned out.

< Message edited by local8h -- 10/22/2006 7:25:22 AM >

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Post #: 140

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/22/2006 7:10:12 AM

simmer

Posts: 572
Joined: 11/20/2004
From: Pittsburgh,Pa
Status: offline

I agree...Release the patch already, then we'll look at the other issues.....

(in reply to local8h)

Post #: 141

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/22/2006 8:38:51 PM

David Winter

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline

Hi.

Yes, we're trying to get the new release out to you as soon as we can.

David

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Post #: 142

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/26/2006 11:36:08 PM

local8h

Posts: 801
Joined: 5/28/2006
From: INDLAND EMPIRE
Status: offline

Just a request if possble,

Request for a short list of Fixes and New Features on R3. If this has been done already please direct me to the link where i could read it.

Also A Question about Stats Export.

When i export Stats on the League Menu whether Season or History since i just finish my second year, I notice that the exported stats which is in Excell format,Both Season 1 and Season 2 are not at all seperated. Sorry just a little picky,its just kind a pain to seperate them...I know lots of guys out there who likes to print out or view stats to follow whoever they are following...
Anyhow i know a lot has been focused on PDS,But some of us dont really mind the current PDS.Just concerned on the basic stuff like stats and bugs.
Well its a remarkable game so thanks in advance.

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Post #: 143

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/27/2006 1:38:49 AM

Marauders

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline

A list of some Release 3 changes:

Fixed bugs in stats, clock issues, and gameplay.

The target features for PDS 2.0 have been implemented. Some of the new features include:

- PDS integrated into the main program
- Presnap commands for Defense
- Read Progression for QB's.
- Offensive linemen tackle dummies are displayed for designing defensive plays.
- Defensive plays can now be practiced against selected offenses.

Changed Defensive Pre Snap code. Players now break the huddle over their assignments rather than waiting for the offense to go in motion.

Made some significant changes to the [READ] command on defense.

Changed the maximum count of defensive down linemen from 4 to 6.

Updated Man to Man coverage in regard to offensive player behind the LOS.

New Man 2 Man Cover System added for defense.

Defensive audibles are implemented.

Added an extra check to the DB coverage routines and made a change to the defensive coverage.

Offensive and defensive profiles updated.

Offense can have two tight ends or three running backs.

Field vision implemented for the new open field running system.

Added fumble tracking to rushing stats.

Created 3 separate passing systems. Users can choose what one they want to use via the constants file.

Fixed the logic with [MOVETO][NEARSIDE]/[FARSIDE].

Added three more [MOVETO] points with [NEARCORNER][FARCORNER][POST]. These are available for offenses only.

Fatigue with offensive line players set by play type.

Changed the motion so that without unlimited motion, the player can still run back away from the LOS.

Players now run to the line if their team is losing and there is only a minute or so in the half.

During play selection on offense, you can now back out all the way to the select play type screen.

Made changes in punting and kicking returns for American game.

Added ability to create a 'non draft' league. This was requested by users that wanted to play league/career mode, but not have to draft players.

Added ability to set the number of rounds in a draft.

Draft Profile changed to Team Profiles and added importing and exporting of profiles.

New Round Robin schedule system implemented.

When finishing a draft with fewer rounds than there are players on a team. If there are currently not enough players on a roster, the game will randomly add players from the free agent pool to the roster to fill it out.

Added the ability to force and end to a season.

A compact database to the utilities (under the league menu) was added to clean up much used files.

Reduced the 'bounce' on the ball.

Depth chart system updated.

Added more constant values into the dat file. This should allow for more tweaking of the passing accuracy.

You can now change draft rounds (via edit league) at any time of the season.

Made some changes to the tackle animation routines.

Updated the game math to make the game more efficient.

Removed the LOS and FD lines from the field during replays.

Added game tips screens.

Added more field type specific rules.

Added a new quick sim interface to the game.

Created a file in the install folder called simgame.dat. This will enable you to tweak some of the values the game uses for generating play outcome. These are the base values that are modified by plays called and the personnel loaded into the play.

Injured players now properly heal after a league game.

The statistics screen will now display for a maximum of 60 seconds if there is no user intervention. So if the user decides to just let a 3D game play out, the game will continue after displaying the stats screen for 1 minute.

Added a Windowed mode. This is a trial solution for those wanting to play the game in a window on their desktop. NOTE: THIS IS NOT OFFICIALLY SUPPORTED. GAME PERFORMANCE IS DRAMATICALLY REDUCED IN WINDOW MODE.

Moo

Removed the 5, 10, & 15 second options for the play clock.

All league and team creation should now be done with the core game. The only real reason for the utilities now is for accessing the playbook editor.

(in reply to local8h)

Post #: 144

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/27/2006 2:13:16 AM

local8h

Posts: 801
Joined: 5/28/2006
From: INDLAND EMPIRE
Status: offline

Thanks Marauders,

You really work hard on these public relation and stuff

my gosh so many things

man i cant think about it, i'll get to excited and bitch again

< Message edited by local8h -- 10/27/2006 2:23:46 AM >

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Post #: 145

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/27/2006 6:30:09 AM

Brockleigh

Posts: 418
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline

Thank you for that update, Mauraders. I'm already excited about the release of R3, and am waiting with baited breath.

Just a quick question: once it's released, what would be the protocol for obtaining R3 as someone who's already purchased the game?

(in reply to local8h)

Post #: 146

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/27/2006 6:48:05 AM

David Winter

Posts: 5158
Joined: 11/24/2004
From: Vancouver, BC
Status: offline

The process is the same as patching. You just have to go to the Matrix Members area and download the latest version. Then install it overtop of the existing build you have.

(in reply to Brockleigh)

Post #: 147

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/27/2006 6:53:09 AM

Marauders

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline

quote:

You really work hard on these public relation and stuff

It took�a while to go over, sort, and condense�the update�notes that come with the builds, but�80% of this is direct from David Winter, so he deserves credit as the primary author.� I just edited it into a list that makes sense.

quote:

once it's released, what would be the protocol for obtaining R3 as someone who's already purchased the game?

The beta release will only be available to people who have already purchased the game.� Once it is up on the Matrix Games server, it just needs to be downloaded and installed.� If you have changes any plays in the playbooks, they may be written over.

I would like to add that PDS 2.0 was at alpha stage right after the last public build was released.��The PDS was rebuilt from the ground up by David with input from the beta team.� I have read on other boards where�it wasn't understood why David referred to part of the program as being back to alpha and then beta stages.� By the way, I'm not sure why this stuff is called beta when it is really like echo or foxtrot.

< Message edited by Marauders -- 10/27/2006 6:57:26 AM >

(in reply to Brockleigh)

Post #: 148

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/27/2006 10:32:11 PM

dreamtheatervt

Posts: 483
Joined: 4/22/2006
From: Virginia
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Marauders
By the way, I'm not sure why this stuff is called beta when it is really like echo or foxtrot.

I think it is more in reference to the Greek alphabet than the NATO phoentic alphabet used by the military. When you think about it, with a game that is going to be updated several times like MF, I guess it would be more appropriate to call it a "delta" stage, since delta is later than beta, and the game is being changed. Calculus humor

(in reply to Marauders)

Post #: 149

RE: Release 3: In Development. - 10/27/2006 10:56:06 PM

Marauders

Posts: 4428
Joined: 3/17/2005
From: Minnesota
Status: offline

Yeah, that's right ... delta, epsilon, kappa, phi, pi....

Actually, isn't a delta copy the release copy?

(in reply to dreamtheatervt)

Post #: 150