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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/28/2006 3:06:16 AM

ravinhood

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hertston

quote:

ORIGINAL: ravinhood

I would say CC is a live action toy game while ASL and SPWAW are traditional grognard wargames. The difference here is the kid who likes things that move and go pow pow vs the more intelligent child that prefers a chesslike atmosphere of thought and strategy and tactics at liesure. The twitcher eyecandy kid vs the thinker. :)

As a matter of interest, have you ever played competitive chess? There ain't no 'at leisure' there, just the pressure of the clock. Maybe the kid that would prefer CC is the one who can handle the pressure to make the right decisions within severe time constraints - the same constraints you have in most of the real world. Not least on a battlefield.

On the battlefield I would be fighting for myself in an individual mode not controlling full squads, platoons, companies, divisions an on an on and having to move them, tell them where to take cover who to fire at, etc. etc. That's the problem with RTS games there is too much to do with hand and mouse that you don't have on the battlefield either. ;) I would also have a radio if I were in command and be able to speak into a mike to deliver orders. These are things the games do not model that are RTS, CC doesn't either.

Turn based slows down that time into intervals where I can use my hand and mouse to issue all those orders and such. That's why turn based rules and anything real time or continous time suks (unless they are games where I play as an individual like FPSers or RPG's). ;) I'm not looking for realism of the battlefield, emotions, and activities when I buy/play a game. I'm looking merely and only for the strategic and tactical moves needed to win the scenario. Let's face it not one single game is realistic when it comes to war. No game can begin to come close when it comes to warfare. But, this discussion is about which game is closer to ASL as a computer game and that's the main point. SPWAW is the closest and CC the futherest away. ;)

(in reply to Hertston)

Post #: 31

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/28/2006 8:40:47 AM

old man of the sea

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I can vouch for Peter's game, it's going to be good. And it isn't the only thing he has cooking.

Dave, Marc and Peter need to talk about it.

E

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Post #: 32

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 4:31:21 AM

Ocelotl

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In reply to ravinhood

quote:

I would say CC is a live action toy game while ASL

LOL Well judging by your intial reaction to my post Id say coming from you thats not a suprise.

First, you strike me as one who is so married to his beliefs that youd probably argue for them even if you knew they were wrong.

Second your cling desprately to your turn based board style games that you cant seem to let go of them even in the face of innovations. Not really a knock on board games, but this is the 21st century, dude its time to move on...

Third, your argument that in real tactical situations you have time to ponder things blah blah blah. I would hardly think that was the case. I believe in tactical situations you have to react quick and make snap decision without the luxury of meandering around trying to decide the utmost best thing to do.

The speed of CC probably overwhelms you and for people who like to micromanage... the game would just be plain to much for you.

Finally, you seem to lack the ability to comprehend the simalarities of CC and ASL. It is beyond me that something so obvious is out of reach for you. According to your argument since CC is not a literal translation it is not even a translation. Here is where we part... I can see that figuratively it is a translation. You probably also lack the ability to think in metaphors and also to think in analogies (which is how I see the simalarities between ASL and CC). I guess it comes with the territory. Boardgames and turned based games are easily manipulated because the style of game play isnt really fluid and in a way they offer a certain sense comfort to one who cant think fast or make decisions on the fly (or those who just dont like to).Certainly this is not the case with all board style turn based gamers but since you so vehemently argue your point I cant help but come to this conclusion.

I feel strongly about this because I look at all the games on this site and see some really good ideas... However some look just like the board games I have in my closet. If I wanted that I would just go buy a bookcase game. With all the new technology out it is beyond me that more often than not that that route is taken with many of these games.

< Message edited by Ocelotl -- 10/29/2006 4:38:11 AM >

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Post #: 33

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 4:43:21 AM

junk2drive

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quote:

Second your cling desprately to your turn based board style games that you cant seem to let go of them even in the face of innovations. Not really a knock on board games, but this is the 21st century, dude its time to move on...

By your arguement you should be playing CM and Panzer Command ready to move up to ToW or Drop Team WWII, patiently waiting for CMx2 WWII or CMSF.

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Post #: 34

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 5:21:36 AM

Ocelotl

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Hmmm...no... not really waiting for those (Ill make those choices for myself...thanks) but I wouldnt be afraid to try something different... provided it it caught my interest...

... I did see panzer command...looks interesting (someone mentioned it at the CCII TH forums) couldnt find a demo version though...

< Message edited by Ocelotl -- 10/29/2006 5:30:29 AM >

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Post #: 35

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 5:36:13 AM

junk2drive

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Check the PC forum below for details on the upcoming demo.

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Post #: 36

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 5:42:19 AM

Sarge

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Post #: 37

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 5:53:11 AM

Ocelotl

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LOL Cant figure out if your sitting there eating popcorn waiting for Panzer Command or the next barrage of comments on this thread...

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Post #: 38

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 6:12:58 AM

junk2drive

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another Saturday night in the forum...

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Post #: 39

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 8:31:59 AM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ocelotl

I feel strongly about this because I look at all the games on this site and see some really good ideas... However some look just like the board games I have in my closet. If I wanted that I would just go buy a bookcase game. With all the new technology out it is beyond me that more often than not that that route is taken with many of these games.

Three reasons for that, I think.

The first is that it really is what a large number of potential purchasers actually want.. even when they are perfecltly well aware of the alternatives, and not usually as hostile to them as ravinhood.

The second is that nobody, yet, has come up with a better alternative at the operational or strategic level. I suppose you could argue WitP is to some extent, but I think the modelled conflicts where that style would 'work' are limited. At the tactical level the form is pretty much dying out to be replaced by games such as CC, CM, PC, Armored Task Force, CotA, etc but the Airborne Assault series really takes that as far up the scale ladder as it can go (its largest scenario is just about equatable to TAOW's smallest).

The third is that simply because they look like bookcase games it doesn't necessarily mean they always play like them - and they often don't. The 'bookcase game' look is chosen for the same reason it originally evolved, to present the information that the player needs in the most effective and quickly absorbed way possible. But, for example, Flashpoint Germany and Tin Soldiers are both very much 'computer' games despite looking like a board-game and a miniatures game respectively.

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Post #: 40

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 12:43:34 PM

sabreman1966mcs

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Here is another project that is sort of "in development", I still get a few mails regarding the progress being made on it;

http://www.thuring.com/asl/jasl/index.html

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Post #: 41

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 1:49:34 PM

Sarge

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Have any of you tried any of the Squad Battles from HPS, I personally have not played them but Advance Of The Reich looks good, and looks to have board game feel.

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Post #: 42

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 2:10:16 PM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

Have any of you tried any of the Squad Battles from HPS, I personally have not played them but Advance Of The Reich looks good, and looks to have board game feel.

Yup. Good games as long as (as usual) you don't expect too much from the AI. Board game feel, certainly, just as with most of the rest of Tiller's stuff. I'd actually recommend both the Vietnam games as being the best of the bunch; partly because there isn't much else that covers Vietnam at that scale and partly because the system actually handles helicopters surprisingly well. The scenarios are just more fun to play than those in AotR or Eagle Strike IMHO.

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Post #: 43

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 3:07:00 PM

Sarge

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I might take another look at SB�s by HPS someday, but I have never been a big fan on squad scale tactical games represented on the PC in the manner of board game graphics.

But I am enjoying the hell out of Minsk PC, and expecting First Blitz Mon or Tue .

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Post #: 44

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 3:49:44 PM

Neilster

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pad152

One thing you can say about computer ports of Squad Leader is the two greatest failures of all time (Close Combat, Combat Mission) both started out as ports of ASL. Funny, the only computer game to carry the SL title (hasbro version) was total crap!

Combat Mission a failure? Are you on the drugs? Given its consistently high high ratings (over 3 iterations), staying power and hordes of fans, in what way is this system one of the "grateatest failures of all time"?

I'd have another look at the grammar and internal logic of your first sentence if I were looking for failures, matey.

Cheers, Neilster

< Message edited by Neilster -- 10/29/2006 5:44:01 PM >

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Post #: 45

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 4:19:34 PM

Oleg Mastruko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Marc Schwanebeck

As a matter of interest, have you ever played competitive chess? There ain't no 'at leisure' there, just the pressure of the clock. Maybe the kid that would prefer CC is the one who can handle the pressure to make the right decisions within severe time constraints - the same constraints you have in most of the real world. Not least on a battlefield.

You mean "clickfest" chess, LOL

Clickfest chess =>

Turn based tactical games are for wussies - period. At tactical level you have to feel constant, relentless pressure of the "clock", as in competitive/clickfest chess. Any game that does not represent this on *tactical* level, is a failure as far as realism is concerned. Thus, any turn based tactical system is a failure by definition. There is *absolutely* no reason why in this age of mega-powerful CPUs we should settle for anything less than continuous time, continuous terrain representation of *tactical* battles. Close Combat did this the first time back in 1996 (if my memory is not wrong?), so what's the problem?

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 4:41:39 PM

junk2drive

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What's the problem? Getting to the age where all that fast paced stress causes pain down your left arm and the adrenaline keeps you awake on a work night.

That's why I gave up Mariokart

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Post #: 47

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 4:45:45 PM

Sarge

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You guys are WACKED !

First ,CM is a complete failure, now its all turn base games are failures.

Realism in a video game , get serious

Lets start using historical accuracy as a subject , and then lets see who stands out from the crowd

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Post #: 48

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 4:46:46 PM

Erik Rutins

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Peter,

quote:

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
I'm working on computer version of Advanced Squad Leader Stater Kit (I call it for now XASL)...head to head play and at some point I want to implement SASL II - scale it down for ASLSK. I have American, German and Russian infantry all in at this point and including support weapons like machine guns, DC and FT. I'm currently doing some testing then I will move on to ordnance like bazooka/panzerschreck and mortars before I got guns and finally armor - by that time hopefully MMP will release Starter Kit #3.

That looks quite good, definitely brings back memories.

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Post #: 49

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 5:42:12 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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I can only imagine he meant "failure" to indicate they "failed" to entirely port ASL to the computer in a way that would leave no opening for debates as to which did the job perfectly.

As for CM or CC being "failures" in any other way, well heck, I would likely not want to espouse that notion myself. Not that my reputation is near and dear and valuable, but, I don't want to shoot holes in whatever credibility I might have :)

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 8:19:31 PM

Ocelotl

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quote:

because they look like bookcase games it doesn't necessarily mean they always play like them

Yes, that is a good point. I have yet to play many of the games at this site (just not enough time).

I am not opposed to turn based games nor even bookcase games for that matter. I just like a some variety and change every now and then. Hell, some of the best games I own are in that category.True to is the fact that a grand strategy game probably wouldnt translate all that great without a turn based system

However, I have yet to be wowed by any games since ASL or CC for that matter, but I will always be looking...

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/29/2006 8:52:33 PM

Hertston

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ocelotl

However, I have yet to be wowed by any games since ASL or CC for that matter, but I will always be looking...

Try CotA, if nothing else.

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Post #: 52

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/30/2006 3:14:07 AM

Oleg Mastruko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge
You guys are WACKED !

First ,CM is a complete failure, now its all turn base games are failures.

Well we need to define "failure". CM is not a commercial failure - it has thousands of fans, many fan sites, leagues, whatnot, apparently Battlefront sold many copies and is firmly still in business, planning new additions to this series, and I am happy for them.

However, I personally never liked the game, I respected it for all new stuff it brought to the genre all the new things it boldly did first, but I never liked it, and as far as realism goes it's a joke. The very sight of grogs arguing in mile long threads about penetration of some gun vs some armored vehicle, while *completely* ignoring the fact that game gives you *unlimited* time to think for your next turn - how very funny and symptomatic of "grog disease"

Finally, whether CM is a failure as far as ASL rules are concerned, I abstain from voting, as personally I couldn't care less about original ASL rules

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/30/2006 3:43:19 AM

Sarge

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

Lets start using historical accuracy as a subject , and then lets see who stands out from the crowd

< Message edited by Sarge -- 10/30/2006 3:48:08 AM >

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Post #: 54

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/30/2006 4:12:08 AM

old man of the sea

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CC and CM a failure, hmmmm, well, they don't look like ASL so they must be.

This is one funny thread ya got here

E

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/30/2006 5:27:50 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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I sometimes think individuals like Oleg Mastruko, would only be satisfied with the reality of live fire real life wargames with the real thing military.

No turns there eh. And you don't get to ponder what you are going to do next.

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/30/2006 6:24:53 AM

Sarge

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I don�t know if that is indeed what the argument is Les, although we have argued the same thing over and over again. I still am not sure exactly what the RTS community is try to convey. On one hand the biggest qualifier is the use of continuous time implemented in the game engine. But on the other they have no concept or show evidence of time scale or better yet how and what scale is used in the engine,

Is it real world ?

I once beta team for a RTS title and ran a test . IIRC it was a 200 meter dash, the game engine did it in 15 seconds never mind the fact the troops showed no fatigue as it was not even modeled . But anyway the world record is something like 22 seconds, in running apparel , not 10-20 pounds of battle-rattle in combat boots clutching a rifle in tall grass.

After posting my findings and calling them absurd , I received silence, not one of the designers replied.

With the absences of real word physics in a continues time engine, how is any level of realism achieved. After all wouldn�t you think this element would take the lead in development on this so-called quest of realism.

But as we see time after time, this small insignificant technicality is brushed aside in this repetitive debate. Substituted with a quick jab at the intelligence of the turn base player along with the denial that the whole foundation of the game engine is flawed in its most basic building block.

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/30/2006 4:12:06 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sarge

I don�t know if that is indeed what the argument is Les, although we have argued the same thing over and over again. I still am not sure exactly what the RTS community is try to convey. On one hand the biggest qualifier is the use of continuous time implemented in the game engine. But on the other they have no concept or show evidence of time scale or better yet how and what scale is used in the engine,

Is it real world ?

I once beta team for a RTS title and ran a test . IIRC it was a 200 meter dash, the game engine did it in 15 seconds never mind the fact the troops showed no fatigue as it was not even modeled . But anyway the world record is something like 22 seconds, in running apparel , not 10-20 pounds of battle-rattle in combat boots clutching a rifle in tall grass.

After posting my findings and calling them absurd , I received silence, not one of the designers replied.

With the absences of real word physics in a continues time engine, how is any level of realism achieved. After all wouldn�t you think this element would take the lead in development on this so-called quest of realism.

But as we see time after time, this small insignificant technicality is brushed aside in this repetitive debate. Substituted with a quick jab at the intelligence of the turn base player along with the denial that the whole foundation of the game engine is flawed in its most basic building block.

Almost feel like filing this quote away when I feel like kicking around the deluded portion of the RTS crowd :)

Myself, I often wonder, how much time is required to impregnate a female, raise the resulting male to military age, train in basic training with an army till qualified and then deploy to a unit.

In the real world, that's about 18 years from start to finish (assuming the woman cooperates :)).

In an RTS game, it takes about 20 seconds.

Now granted, not all RTS games feature resource management, and unit production.
Still your above example illustrates, that reality and some RTS games get along like oil and water.

I know my turns are just turns. They're an expediant to reflect it's just a game of minds after all. I'm not deluded by notions of my game being "realistic". I much rather prefer the term "simulation" be kept in proper perspective.

ASL is a game where each turn is mere slices of time. A full game, just a matter of a small slice of time as a whole.

And everyone that has ever held a rifle and walked in the footsteps of an infantryman knows, war is a dulldrum of monotony, broken up by bursts of mere minutes of sheer hell and death.

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RE: advanced squad leader - 10/30/2006 6:08:03 PM

old man of the sea

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Ran the 200 meter test in Squad Assault. Took the fastest guy out of a 5 man group 90 seconds to run 200 meters down a road. The slowest, the one with the BAR, ran it in 150 seconds. Not all RTS's are so bad after all.

E

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Post #: 59

RE: advanced squad leader - 10/30/2006 11:15:22 PM

Fred98

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Over the years I had all versibns of Close Combat. And upgraded the PCs along the way.

The first thing I didm, was to check how long it would take for a man to run 100 meters. About 20sec fully laden is about right.

And then set the game speed to fast, medium or slow to achieve it.

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