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RE: Stock Data Base Update - 10/31/2006 5:55:27 PM   
Andrew Brown


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quote:

ORIGINAL: pauk
says Andy Without Fighters I....




It was Andy's problems that first alerted me to the F6F issue. His and PzB's AARs are the only stock map AARs that I read. They are too entertaining to miss!

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Post #: 31
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 10/31/2006 5:57:58 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
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From: Alien spacecraft
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

I would consider the low build rate of the F6F in the stock scenarios as an error. After a bit of work on this for CHS I settled on a build rate of this aircraft of 230, as opposed to the stock value of 144. Quite a difference.

Of course there are issues with changing data such as this - namely play balance - but I am reporting it here as I view this as a genuine fault with the data.

There are other aircraft build rate and availability date errors as well - Allied and Japanese - but this is one I can recall from memory. I expect that others who are more knowledgeable that I am could come up with a good list...

Andrew


I bumped up F6F production a bit too....partially in compensation for making the early F4U not carrier capable. (it too bumped up in production)

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Post #: 32
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 10/31/2006 6:36:37 PM   
invernomuto


Posts: 986
Joined: 10/8/2004
From: Turin, Italy
Status: offline 		Fix Oscar II stats :)




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Post #: 33
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 10/31/2006 7:36:02 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		what's wrong with them?

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Post #: 34
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 10/31/2006 8:05:33 PM   
invernomuto


Posts: 986
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From: Turin, Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

what's wrong with them?


Quote from an old post:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Honda
Isn't it clear Oscar is an underperformer in the game vs. RL? The point isn't to make it have 1-1 vs. Corsair or Hellcat but just to give a chance to 80+ exp pilots in Oscars to hurt 50-60 exp Corsairs or Hellcats. It don't see that happening due to game mechanics. OscarI seems to perform rather historicaly. However OscarII needs some help to get around in 43+ environment.
Some facts (Christopher Chant, WW2 - Aircraft):
1. OscarII had some primitive selfsealing tanks and armored pilot seat.
2. It was modified to carry 250kg bombs.
3. It's top speed at 4.000 meters was 540 km/h (A6M2 was 533 km/h at 4.500 meters)
4. OscarIII went into production in May '44. Don't know exact stats but had an engine with 25% more horse power then OscarII. If the game forces Japanese players to stick with Oscars till the end (which is historicaly accurate) it could at least give them the '44 upgrade. BTW there was also a '45 version, a high-altitude interceptor armed with two Ho-5 20mm cannons, but it never saw mass-production 'cause the war ended.

Yes, Oscar was hopelessly outdated in 43+ but not in the scale the game suggests. Help Oscars! They're your friends!


Compared to an Oscar I:
Mrv rating of Oscar II is lower. Why?
Self sealing tank and armoured pilot seat should be reflected with a better durability than Oscar I.
As it is oscar II is a quite useless aircraft in WITP. In real life, its performances weren't so bad.





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RE: Stock Data Base Update - 10/31/2006 9:37:43 PM   
Feinder


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quote:

Self sealing tank and armoured pilot seat should be reflected with a better durability than Oscar I


In WitP, self-sealing tanks and some pilot armor is conisdered an armor rating of "1".  It looks like Oscar II has a rating of 0, so it sounds like it should be "1".

-F-

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Post #: 36
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 10/31/2006 9:56:12 PM   
Nikademus


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From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		ok.

well most of your concerns were addressed in my mod (armor....mvr etc) the 250kg bomb thing i declined as the JAAf didn't positively test and ratify arming the Ki-43II with that heavy a bomb till very late in the war in Burma(i'd have to look in Shores for the exact date) but up to that point the plane never regularily lugged such a beastie around.



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Post #: 37
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 10/31/2006 10:49:48 PM   
siRkid


Posts: 6650
Joined: 1/29/2002
From: Orland FL
Status: offline 		Hey Pry! Good to see your still at it. Thanks!

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Post #: 38
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 8:39:19 AM   
buzzz123

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ile Maurice
Status: offline 		a few aircraft changes....

Dornier 24K did not carry torpedoes - had underwing racks for up to 12 110lb bombs. Top speed is probabbly a bit high also, closer to 195mph would be better.

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Post #: 39
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 8:57:07 AM   
buzzz123

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ile Maurice
Status: offline 		How about including the Avro Anson - worthless as far as game play, but was certainly there historically. Australia, UK, Canada, Netherlands, etc all used them.

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Post #: 40
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 9:04:29 AM   
buzzz123

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ile Maurice
Status: offline 		the P39D and P40O both carried 500lb bombs - not limited to 250lb as in stock. Also top speed of P39D is a little slow - officially 368mph.

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Post #: 41
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 10:32:17 AM   
buzzz123

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ile Maurice
Status: offline 		B17C has max bomb load listed as 6800. Historically the normal load was 4000. BUT... this is accounted for by limiting the load to 8 500lb bombs. Was the higher max load listed to ensure the 'heavy' bomber penalty - ie. with the 6800lb bomb load listed the B17C really needs a size 5 AF, if it was reduced to 4000lb it could operate from size 4 AF with no restriction - which is possibly unrealistic as the B17C needed basically the same takeoff roll as the B17E etc.

By the way, all suggestions are for stock scen 15.

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Post #: 42
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 10:52:20 AM   
buzzz123

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ile Maurice
Status: offline 		MANY bases are listed with max port and AF size of 0. This is ridiculous - just because a major airport was not built in a place does not mean it could not have been. Sure, if a base contains no natural harbor then a port size of 0 is reasonable. But unless a base is either too tiny (eg. a minute semi submerged coral atoll) or else located in a mountain range it should at least have a max AF size of 1 - allowing an AF up to size 4 to be built. Lunga is a classic example - Henderson field was no more suitable a place to build than many other surrounding islands (heavy dense jungle crisscrossed by rivers) but it is given a max AF size of 4, while everything else in the area is 0.

Norfolk island for example - the AF there now takes 737 and up (and no major earth works were required), yet it is given a max size of 0. Rennel is, Stewart Is, etc, etc, etc. Should all be AF max of 1 (NOT zero).

Also that little dot northwest of Lunga called 'Thousand ships bay'.... anyone care to guess how it got that name? Anyone care to guess its max port size in the game? yep. ZERO!!


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Post #: 43
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 11:12:40 AM   
invernomuto


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From: Turin, Italy
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

ok.

well most of your concerns were addressed in my mod (armor....mvr etc) the 250kg bomb thing i declined as the JAAf didn't positively test and ratify arming the Ki-43II with that heavy a bomb till very late in the war in Burma(i'd have to look in Shores for the exact date) but up to that point the plane never regularily lugged such a beastie around.


I know that in your mod Oscar II stats were fixed. I hope that these changes will be imported also in the official stock database.

Bye




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RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 12:44:36 PM   
buzzz123

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ile Maurice
Status: offline 		The Beaufort V - VIII (not the IX - it was a transport conversion) were not equipped to carry torpedoes. Also most of them were fitted with 6 x 0.50in machine guns - 2 in nose, 2 in wings, 2 in dorsal turret.

Currently in stock the Beaufort I (which i guess includes the II) is identical to the Beaufort V - VIII (the Australian built ones). This is not correct, and is really a waste of a plane slot.

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Post #: 45
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 1:04:52 PM   
buzzz123

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ile Maurice
Status: offline 		And....

The Beaufighter VIC was a dedicated anti shipping aircraft and was designed to carry an 18in (or even a 22.5in) torpedo. It also often had 8 rockets underwing in place of the .303 guns.

It also has one .303 in the dorsal hatch.

The max speed of the Beau VIC should probably be increased slightly too (333mph?).

The Beaufighter Mk21 was not fitted with torpedoes, but did have the underwing rockets, or alternatively the .303 guns in the wings were replaced with .50 guns. It also included the dorsal gun.

Finally, the Mk21 did not fly until May 1944 - although i suspect in the game the Mk21 is supposed to reflect also the Beaufighter X and XI (all of these models were essentially the same - the X and XI built in the UK, the Mk21 built in Australia) in which case March 1942 is a better starting date.

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Post #: 46
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 2:16:14 PM   
pry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Along with Japanese Radar perhaps all radars need to be looked at.  The build rate for a lot of them is 0 with 0 (both sides) in the pool - so can these radars even enter the game?   If one gets damaged can it be fixed? 


Ship radar sets are on demand production, if one is needed it is produced on the spot for repair or upgrades there is no monthly production. A production rate of 0 allows it to exist and be produced as needed.






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Post #: 47
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 2:18:27 PM   
pry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Speedy

How about the Rockets on later class Japanese ship upgrades? Unryu class for example?

They don't work properly IIRC?


This will have to wait for a future patch, this would require some code fixing which requires testing... I'll add it to the list and get with Joe and Don about it.


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Post #: 48
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 2:33:36 PM   
pry


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quote:

ORIGINAL: buzzz123

a few aircraft changes....

Dornier 24K did not carry torpedoes - had underwing racks for up to 12 110lb bombs. Top speed is probabbly a bit high also, closer to 195mph would be better.


You were not around here for the great ship killer debates,

You might want to do a search on this subject from around 05/04 - 06/04 right after the game was released, armed with bombs the DO-24 became a ship killer of mythic abilities. We changed it to carry torpedoes for that very reason...
One of the trade offs between historical accuracy and game balance. It will stay as is...




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Post #: 49
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 2:37:06 PM   
pry


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From: Overlooking Galveston Bay, Texas
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Kid

Hey Pry! Good to see your still at it. Thanks!


Hey Kid, Hows it going... Yep 4 years later and I'm still working on the data bases. Never realized it would become a life long job when you recruited me for this project...

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Post #: 50
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 4:22:00 PM   
Nikademus


Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline 		you don't get away that easy.

com'ere so i can reseed your ports with subs again.....

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Post #: 51
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/1/2006 6:57:04 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
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Status: offline 		And nail your feet to the floor so you can't get away...

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RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/3/2006 3:04:36 PM   
buzzz123

 

Posts: 78
Joined: 9/14/2006
From: ile Maurice
Status: offline
quote:

You were not around here for the great ship killer debates,

You might want to do a search on this subject from around 05/04 - 06/04 right after the game was released, armed with bombs the DO-24 became a ship killer of mythic abilities. We changed it to carry torpedoes for that very reason...
One of the trade offs between historical accuracy and game balance. It will stay as is...


You're right - i missed that one. Guess i am a late starter on this game.

I have no problem if you need to 'tweek' details to get better accuracy, but are you planning to adjust any aircraft specs? Many are a little off - even if just in production rate and arrival dates. If you are expecting to make some of these changes i can look up some more details, but not keen to do it if the aircraft stats are set in concrete already. No point wasting my free time - may as well just play the game.

cheers

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Post #: 53
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/3/2006 8:03:19 PM   
Admiral Scott


Posts: 625
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Syracuse, NY USA
Status: offline 		When do you estimate this project will be completed Pry?

-Thanks

< Message edited by Admiral Scott -- 11/4/2006 4:41:16 PM >

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Post #: 54
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/4/2006 3:43:17 AM   
RUPD3658


Posts: 6922
Joined: 8/28/2002
From: East Brunswick, NJ
Status: offline 		Don't know if this is a data base error or a leader bug issue but in my stock scn 15 I discovered that the 104th Div (Unit 1195 CEF) is lead by WCDR Burdges.

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Post #: 55
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/4/2006 7:10:28 AM   
Wallymanowar


Posts: 651
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From: Vernon, B.C., Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: pry

OK Folks

Joel has given me permission and I am going to make another OFFICIAL pass thru the stock scenario data bases and try to correct all the remaining issues and errors.

This will be not be a Major Reworking of the Data Bases this is simply a fix for existing errors, so don't ask for new stuff.

PLEASE Keep this a fix list only, Thanks.

Pry
{Edit} 11/01/06
This always happens the fix thread always turns into a runaway train...

The scope of my review is strictly limited to existing typos and errors as follows, basically fixing items that do not require code changes to the game itself.

Ships with gun facing issues
Ships arriving with wrong configurations
Air groups with incorrect max aircraft or configurations
Radar set to wrong type
Duplicate leaders
Fixing the two major issues with scenario 2 (Withdraw port and Canton garrison)
Those kinds of changes…

This type of stuff will not be addressed, it is beyond the scope of this review and would require testing for game play and balance issues.

Adding new units
Changing Leader values
Changing aircraft performance and ordnance
Aircraft production numbers




I've been working on my own personal mod of WITP which first involves a direct translation of the stock data to Andrew's map. Here is a preliminary list of mistakes I have noted for Scenario 15 - most of them are simple spelling mistakes but all of them involve only changes to the database (BTW I'm only about 10% of the way through my first change):

Devices:
139: Type 13 Radar - the penetration should be changed from 0 to 500 - this will at the very least make the radar function.
359: Gurka Squad - this should be respelled Gurkha Squad - I'm not sure if this squad comes into play in Scenario 15 but it should at least be spelled correctly - change it for all the scenarios.

Locations:
119: Change 'Y Force to Y force - get rid of the apostrophe, it looks wrong.
223: Shimuzu - should be Shimizu - spelling
227: Ikitsuki - should be Tsushima - Ikitsuki was an island in Nagasaki Harbour, Tsushima is the name of the island at the map location.
228: Nagato - Should be Shimonoseki. Nagato was the name of the prefecture (county). Shimonoseki was the name of the capital of Nagato prefecture.
237: Seoul - should be Keijo - this was the Japanese name for Seoul
241: Wonsan - should be Genzan - this was the Japanese name for Wonsan
243: Pyongyang - should be Heijo - this was the Japanese name for Pyongyang
244: Luda - should be Dairen. Luda was a name the Chinese gave to the joint municipality of Dailen and Lushan sometime after the war. Dairen is the Japanese name for Dailen and Port Arthur is the pre-1949 name for Lushan.
247: Fushan - should be Fushun - spelling
252: Taipei - should be Taihoku - this was the Japanese name for Taipei
340: Kitakyushu - should be Fukuoka - Kitakysushu did not exist until 1963 when it was formed from an amalgamation of 5 smaller cities. Fukuoka was the largest city (and still is) on Kyushu and is located at that site on the map - it is also only 20km from present day Kitakyushu.
353: Shikka - should be Shikuka - spelling

As I mentioned above this is only preliminary - I'll give further updates as I can. You'll notice that I recommend changing some of the names to the Japanese forms. This is because I believe it is more historically accurate to name those cities that were considered part of the Japanese Empire prior to the Sino-Japanese war in their Japanese names rather than their modern names.

I hope this helps



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I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
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Post #: 56
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/5/2006 7:00:17 AM   
Wallymanowar


Posts: 651
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Vernon, B.C., Canada
Status: offline 		Next Installment:

Locations:
356: Pusan - Change name to Fusan - Japanese name for Pusan
358: Hungnam - Change to Konan - Japanese name for Hungnam
359: Mutanchiang - Change to Mutankiang - spelling
375: Kaigan - Change to Kalgan - spelling
392: Kuikang - Change to Kiukang - spelling
393: Hsinyang - change to Sinyang - spelling
395: Wuhan - Change to Hankow - Wuhan was the name given to the city that was formed in 1949 from the merger of Wuchang, Hankow, and Hanyang. It was also the name of the informal district formed by those three cities prior to that. Hankow more accurately occupies the location on the map and also has more historical importance.
409: Yunan - Change to Tsuyung - Yunan (correctly spelled Yunnan) was the name of the province. Tsuyung is the name of the city at the map location.
424: Taan - Change to Samah - Taan is an alternate name for the city of Xinzhou and is located on the northwest coast of Hainan. Other than that, I can find no reason for this name to be used and I have no idea why it was used. The more important centers on Hainan were Samah Bay with the port of Sanya on the south coast (where the Japanese fleet sailed from to attack Malaya), Haikou (the capital of the island), and Kiungshan (the site of a Japanese Seaplane base and Airbase). Both Kiungshan and Haikou were on the northeast coast.
425: Kiungahan - Change to Kiungshan - spelling
435: Siemrem Reap - Change to Siem Reap - All the references I have found only refer to the shorter name.
446: Pagan - Change name to Meiktila - Pagan is unimportant historically compared to Meiktila and changing it eliminates the duplication of the name (Pagan is also a Japanese controlled island north of Saipan)
456: Chandpur - Change name to Chittagong - Chandpur was an important river port but Chittagong was, and is, the largest seaport in East Bengal (modern Bangladesh), the capital of the district which Chandpur was part of, and accurately occupies the correct position on the map.
465: Diamond Harbor - Change this to Diamond Harbour - King's English spelling
469: Yanam - Change this to Vizagapatam - Yanam was the port city for the French Indian province of Pondicherry which is actually south of Madras. Vizagapatam is the name of the British Indian port at that location on the map.
470: Panaji - Change this to Nova Goa - Panaji is the modern name for Nova Goa. At the time Nova Goa was the capital of the Portuguese Indian colony of Goa, which occupies this position on the map. Since Portugal was technically neutral I wonder why it was included at all.
471: Trimcomalee - Change name to Trincomalee - spelling
480: Andaman Island - Change name to Port Blair - The actual name could be Andaman Islands (note the plural) but since Port Blair is the largest town and port it is more appropriate.
481: Nicobar Island - Change to Nicobar Islands - this was a island chain of 22 islands and islets.
485: Krung Thep - Change to Ayutthaya - Krung Thep is the Thai name for Bangkok. The city at the map location is Phrak Nakhon si Ayutthaya (short name is Ayutthaya)
487: Rahaeng - Change the name to Tak - this is the proper Thai name for the town, which acts as the gateway from Thailand to Myanmar (Burma).
488: Pisanuloke - Change to Phitsanulok - closer to the Thai name.
489: Bandou - Change to Surat Thani - The original name of the town was Bandon (so at least correct the spelling). The name was changed to Surat Thani in 1915 by the Thai King.
490: Songkhia - Change to Singora - The Thai name is Songkhla, so again, at the very least, the name should be spelled correctly. In 1941 it was more commonly known as Singora.

One thing to note is that I ran into problems when looking into information for Cambodia during this period. If the information I have found is accurate, there should be no ports along the Cambodian coast during this time. At best there were only fishing villages and certainly no rail connection to the coast. The modern port at the site indicated on the WITP map (Kompong Trach) is called Kompong Som and used to be called Sihanoukville. Sihanoukville was named for Prince Sihanouk after the French finished developing the area into a deepwater port, with a rail connection, in 1964.

That's all for tonight. There will be more when I compile my next corrections.

_____________________________

I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
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(in reply to Wallymanowar)
Post #: 57
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/6/2006 2:07:04 AM   
Wallymanowar


Posts: 651
Joined: 8/1/2000
From: Vernon, B.C., Canada
Status: offline 		Third installment:

Locations:
493: Khota Bharu - Change to Kota Bharu - spelling
501: Johore Bahru - Change to Johore Bharu - spelling
510: Jambi - Change to Djambi - this is using the Dutch names for the DEI instead of the Indonesian names. http://www.geocities.com/dutcheastindies/geo_names.html
529: Banjarmasin - Change to Bandjermasin - Dutch
544: Macassar - Change to Makassar - Dutch
566: Sinkep Island - Change to Singkep, drop the island - spelling Dutch
568: Mentawi Island - change to Siberoet Island - Mentawi was the name for the island chain that runs along the south coast of Sumatra, Siberoet is an island in that chain that matches the map location.
570: Belitung Island - change to Belitoeng - Dutch - and drop the island
571: Bulla - change to Boella - Dutch
584: Wasile - change to Weda - Dutch
625: Batan Island - change to Batan Islands - plural since this is a group
635: Tagbalarin - change to Tagbilarin - spelling
646: Etorofo Jima - change to Etorofu Jima - spelling - BTW, Jima is one of three different Japanese suffixes that means Island. I have dropped the Jima from the place names for all the islands in the Kuriles in my mod, which is just a case of my own preference.
652: Kadina - change to Kadena - spelling
654: Osumi - change to Tanegashima - the Osumi islands are a group of islands in th Ryukyu archipelago (of which Okinawa is the largest). Tanegashima is the largest island in the Osumi's
655: Sakashima - change to Ishigaki - Sakashima is the name of another group of islands in the Ryukyu's. Ishigaki is the largest island in that group
656: Ishieak - change to Miyako - I believe that Ishieak may have orignally been intended to be Ishigaki and was horribly mispelled. This is because there is no other name in the whole chain that comes close. Regardless, if it was supposed to be Ishigaki, it is in the wrong location on the map. This map location sits in the middle of the Miyako group of islands, of which the largest is also named Miyako.
658: Bonin - At the very least change this to Bonin Islands - I have named it Chichi Jima because this is the largest island in the Bonin Islands and was an important resupply base for Iwo Jima. Coincidentally this is the island where George H W Bush was shot down during the war.

This ends today's installment.

_____________________________

I never blame myself when I'm not hitting. I just blame the bat and if it keeps up, I change bats. After all, if I know it isn't my fault that I'm not hitting, how can I get mad at myself?
Yogi Berra

(in reply to Wallymanowar)
Post #: 58
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/6/2006 9:21:17 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: buzzz123

How about including the Avro Anson - worthless as far as game play, but was certainly there historically. Australia, UK, Canada, Netherlands, etc all used them.


We've been here (and several other places) before. How the Anson (even as a representative of utility aircraft filling 2nd line roles) never made the cut of CHS is beyond me. However, since the guys put in the work of creating such a massive Mod, they should be allowed to include what they feel is appropriate (with our input of course).

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Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to buzzz123)
Post #: 59
RE: Stock Data Base Update - 11/6/2006 9:29:38 AM   
Reg


Posts: 2787
Joined: 5/26/2000
From: NSW, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: buzzz123

And....

The Beaufighter VIC was a dedicated anti shipping aircraft and was designed to carry an 18in (or even a 22.5in) torpedo. It also often had 8 rockets underwing in place of the .303 guns.



Beware the differences between capability and doctrine. The RAAF Beaufighters were fully capable of carrying torpedoes but were operated in the long range fighter role.
(ie no torps or ground support equipment assigned to the squadrons and no training for the aircrew).

As for your other observations, the Beaufighter seems to be an aircraft that is not represented very accurately in the game and for some reason it has been difficult to get it fixed despite plenty of suggestions.


_____________________________

Cheers,
Reg.

(One day I will learn to spell - or check before posting....)
Uh oh, Firefox has a spell checker!! What excuse can I use now!!!

(in reply to buzzz123)
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