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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> War In The Pacific - Struggle Against Japan 1941 - 1945 >> Looking for Feedback Page: [1]
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Looking for Feedback - 11/8/2006 8:04:09 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline 		So far in the Mod I'm working on I've revised the Washington Treaty to allow a few extra BBs to be constructed by both sides. Also, using CHS as a base, I've added a few missing units such as the Royal Thai Armed Forces and will be adding the Indian homeland defense forces as soon as I can obtain an OOB for them. I think these are relatively uncontroversial additions to a CHS based mod.

However, I'm toying once again with the idea of scrapping the whole Yamato program and replacing them with an alternative building program of more useful ships such as DDs, Subs and such.

What are others' opinions of such a move? Is it delving too deep into the realm of fantasy to scrap the Yamatos? Or would people be interested in playing a mod where the tonnage from the Yamatos is converted into more practical ships which could better contribute to the Japanese war effort?

Just curious. Thanks for any feedback.

Post #: 1
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/8/2006 10:29:10 AM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		I'd say that's 100% your call, Gary...

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 2
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/8/2006 9:08:40 PM   
rokohn

 

Posts: 32
Joined: 8/4/2006
From: California
Status: offline 		Fantasy is a relative term.  When the Yamatos were laid down, no one had any REAL idea how effective carrier based aircraft would be.  Hindsight is always 20-20.

Try this for a Fantasy mod:

Decrease all airplane ship attack values by a factor of 10 so and increase AA also by a factor of 10.  Now the battleship admirals that were responsible for the Japanese and American BB programs of the late 30's are correct.  Now carriers are useless and battleships rule the seas.  You would really miss the Yamatos then.

Granted, my idea goes from fantasy to just plain stupid, but the point is that it wasn't stupid in the late 30's.  (Hector Bywater would love it though).  I wonder what the US Navy in 1938 would think
if they got a hold of the WiTP board game, with the obviously outrageous aircraft values.  Sort of a variation on the "Final Countdown" movie.  They would have laughed at it unless they were CONVINCED it was an accurate presentation of future history.  Only then would battleships be scrapped.

While you are at it, the British assumed they had the submarine menace beat in the late 30s also.  Granted they were wrong.  Assume they were right.  Increase ASW values and experience by a huge value.  Now, you have too many DD's.  And once again you miss the Yamato.

A battleship has to be built long before you need it, unlike most escort classes.  It is easier to switch from battleships to escorts if you need to, it is impossible to switch from escorts to battleships if you missplanned.

Remember that the Japanese never really came to grips with the speed of American production (Yamamoto being the obvious exception) and assumed a year or so construction time for escorts, not the 3 months or so that the Americans could do during war-time.

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(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 3
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/8/2006 10:38:42 PM   
niceguy2005


Posts: 12523
Joined: 7/4/2005
From: Super secret hidden base
Status: offline 		I have little constructive to say here so I will just spam.

Seriously, I don't see why there isn't room for what if mods. I have to say if I was Japan and were looking back on the war I would have taken more DDs and subs if I had the choice, but can't a player do that themselves by manipulating the production system?

_____________________________


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(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 4
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/8/2006 10:54:07 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline 		All people who take the type and make the effort to bend the editor to their will get to make what ever sort of mod they want.

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to niceguy2005)
Post #: 5
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/8/2006 11:09:37 PM   
Mike Solli


Posts: 15792
Joined: 10/18/2000
From: the flight deck of the Zuikaku
Status: offline 		It's starting to look a lot like WPO to me.....

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 6
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/9/2006 4:56:03 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

It's starting to look a lot like WPO to me.....


I don't think it's going to be much like WPO. The big thing about WPO is the relative absence of air power. Both sides in this mod will still have all their carriers. Air power is every bit as crucial as before. The big additions so far are only historical units from WW2 which were left out of CHS like the armed forces of Thailand and the addition of 6 more capital ships total (2 for Japan, 4 for Allies), representing an alteration of the Washington Treaty (and a chance to introduce Big B's Beeutiful Tosa class ship sides. ).

I'm just wondering if others would be interested if I scrapped the Yamatos and brought in more DDs, Subs and other ships like that. I'm thinking that the stuff above should be pretty uncontroversial for a "what if" mod, however, scrapping the Yamatos for an alternative building program would be a pretty drastic change of course for the mod I think. I'm not sure how many people would be interested in playing without the Yamatos and a whole plethora of smaller ships in their stead.

Of course I could do a couple versions of the mod, one with the Yamatos and one without.

(in reply to Mike Solli)
Post #: 7
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/9/2006 5:38:13 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

All people who take the type and make the effort to bend the editor to their will get to make what ever sort of mod they want.


I agree with you Terminus, but there seem to be some very vocal people in the forum who are purists (for lack of a better word) and want only the most plausible stuff to be present out there. Anything else is denounced as too "gamey" or "fantasy" and hence not worth playing.

Personally I like the alternative history stuff and the "what if" scenarios. A lot of worthy people out there have put in a lot of time and imagination to come up with alternative warships and such. Iron Storm is an excellent example. Alikchi put in a tremendous amount of effort into it. And I like your idea of giving the Japanese more ASW capability. Such mods give people more options.

We all know what happened in WW2. But what would happen if things were radically different? I think WitP gives one at least a modicum of the ability to actually experiment with alternative scenarios for WW2 and come up with reasonably accurate results within certain bounds of expectation.

I do agree that too much emphasis has been placed lately upon "realism" in the game at the expense of some freedom of artisitic expression in mod making.

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 8
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/9/2006 6:00:13 AM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
[snip]...representing an alteration of the Washington Treaty (and a chance to introduce Big B's Beeutiful Tosa class ship sides. ).

Yeah,...Tosa did come out pretty cool looking , I wondered what you were going to do with it.

B




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Big B -- 11/9/2006 6:22:42 AM >

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 9
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/9/2006 6:24:28 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
[snip]...representing an alteration of the Washington Treaty (and a chance to introduce Big B's Beeutiful Tosa class ship sides. ).

Yeah,...Tosa did come out pretty cool looking , I wondered what you were going to do with it.

B


Hi B! Sorry about making you do all that work in vain. I'm still trying to figure out a way to include Amagi and Settsu without stretching things too much into the fantastic.

BTW, I don't suppose you would happen to have the plain sides of Tosa, Amagi and Settsu without backgrounds any more, would you?

(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 10
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/9/2006 6:30:45 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B






<-- Gary worshiping the ground Big B stands on.


(in reply to Big B)
Post #: 11
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/9/2006 5:11:36 PM   
Big B

 

Posts: 4870
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Old Los Angeles pre-1960
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: Big B

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress
[snip]...representing an alteration of the Washington Treaty (and a chance to introduce Big B's Beeutiful Tosa class ship sides. ).

Yeah,...Tosa did come out pretty cool looking , I wondered what you were going to do with it.

B


Hi B! Sorry about making you do all that work in vain. I'm still trying to figure out a way to include Amagi and Settsu without stretching things too much into the fantastic.

BTW, I don't suppose you would happen to have the plain sides of Tosa, Amagi and Settsu without backgrounds any more, would you?


Sure I do, I'll email them to you tonight after work.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 12
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/9/2006 6:11:45 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

So far in the Mod I'm working on I've revised the Washington Treaty to allow a few extra BBs to be constructed by both sides. Also, using CHS as a base, I've added a few missing units such as the Royal Thai Armed Forces and will be adding the Indian homeland defense forces as soon as I can obtain an OOB for them. I think these are relatively uncontroversial additions to a CHS based mod.

However, I'm toying once again with the idea of scrapping the whole Yamato program and replacing them with an alternative building program of more useful ships such as DDs, Subs and such.

What are others' opinions of such a move? Is it delving too deep into the realm of fantasy to scrap the Yamatos? Or would people be interested in playing a mod where the tonnage from the Yamatos is converted into more practical ships which could better contribute to the Japanese war effort?

Just curious. Thanks for any feedback.


One logical (and highly effective) alternative would be to postulate that the "Carrier Club" won out over the "Battleship Club" and give the Japanese two additional SHOKAKU's (plus airgroup) in place of the YAMATO's arriving at the same times. Overall costs are quite similar...




(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 13
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/9/2006 7:10:19 PM   
ChezDaJez


Posts: 3436
Joined: 11/12/2004
From: Chehalis, WA
Status: offline
quote:

but there seem to be some very vocal people in the forum who are purists (for lack of a better word) and want only the most plausible stuff to be present out there.


There will always be those people... I probably include myself in there but there are also a number of people who want to be able to say, "If I were emporer, I would have...." and so on.

Personally, I would love to see a mod that allowed a player to "design" his fleet and air force. I know its impossible with the current system but, hey, I would still like to see one.

As to your proposed mod, go for it. If nothing more, you will get enjoyment out of it. And if the "purists" don't like it, so what. There are many things I don't like about RHS but I would never say don't do it. Who knows, it could end up "Mod of the Year."

Chez

_____________________________

Ret Navy AWCS (1972-1998)
VP-5, Jacksonville, Fl 1973-78
ASW Ops Center, Rota, Spain 1978-81
VP-40, Mt View, Ca 1981-87
Patrol Wing 10, Mt View, CA 1987-90
ASW Ops Center, Adak, Ak 1990-92
NRD Seattle 1992-96
VP-46, Whidbey Isl, Wa 1996-98

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 14
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/9/2006 8:51:03 PM   
Terminus


Posts: 41459
Joined: 4/23/2005
From: Denmark
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

All people who take the type and make the effort to bend the editor to their will get to make what ever sort of mod they want.


I agree with you Terminus, but there seem to be some very vocal people in the forum who are purists (for lack of a better word) and want only the most plausible stuff to be present out there. Anything else is denounced as too "gamey" or "fantasy" and hence not worth playing.

Personally I like the alternative history stuff and the "what if" scenarios. A lot of worthy people out there have put in a lot of time and imagination to come up with alternative warships and such. Iron Storm is an excellent example. Alikchi put in a tremendous amount of effort into it. And I like your idea of giving the Japanese more ASW capability. Such mods give people more options.

We all know what happened in WW2. But what would happen if things were radically different? I think WitP gives one at least a modicum of the ability to actually experiment with alternative scenarios for WW2 and come up with reasonably accurate results within certain bounds of expectation.

I do agree that too much emphasis has been placed lately upon "realism" in the game at the expense of some freedom of artisitic expression in mod making.



When it comes down to it, nobody can tell you that something you've taken the time and effort to put together is less than valuable. Screw 'em all and let the Good Lord sort 'em out! Flank speed!

_____________________________

We are all dreams of the Giant Space Butterfly.

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 15
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/9/2006 9:04:24 PM   
Riva Ridge

 

Posts: 116
Joined: 9/17/2006
Status: offline 		Gary,

I would say go for it and create your Mod with the Yamatos converted to something else.  Some would approve and some wouldn't.  As for myself, I would be absolutely delighted to play a CHS-2.08 Mod based on your proposed changes.  In my one Japanese PBM, My destroyer-force has suffered disproportionate losses and I would gladly trade the Yamatos for a larger number of Destroyers.  Sign me up for your play-test.

C

(in reply to Terminus)
Post #: 16
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/9/2006 11:49:30 PM   
temagic


Posts: 169
Joined: 7/26/2006
From: The land of trolls
Status: offline 		I'd say give me 3 Yamato-class CVs, capable of carrying 120 aircrafts in airgroups, instead of the storage place originally designed for the Shinano. 360 a/c would be really good in the year 1942/1943...

Or, convert the 3 ships to scrap metal and produce Zeros and Bettys (app. 30 000 total a/c) - Oh, and of course, train the pilots to fly those machines

:)

(in reply to Riva Ridge)
Post #: 17
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/10/2006 4:23:42 AM   
Raverdave


Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline 		I just cannot see myself serving on a ship called "Tosa" (pronounced TO-SA but looks like TOS-A)

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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

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Post #: 18
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/10/2006 4:50:14 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Raverdave

I just cannot see myself serving on a ship called "Tosa" (pronounced TO-SA but looks like TOS-A)



Why is that? Tosa is a beautiful ship.

< Message edited by Gary Childress -- 11/10/2006 5:26:26 AM >

(in reply to Raverdave)
Post #: 19
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/10/2006 4:57:54 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Riva Ridge

Gary,

I would say go for it and create your Mod with the Yamatos converted to something else.  Some would approve and some wouldn't.  As for myself, I would be absolutely delighted to play a CHS-2.08 Mod based on your proposed changes.  In my one Japanese PBM, My destroyer-force has suffered disproportionate losses and I would gladly trade the Yamatos for a larger number of Destroyers.  Sign me up for your play-test.

C



Thanks Riva Ridge. As long as someone out there likes the idea I may just go ahead and put a few substitutes in for the Yamatos.

I figure for roughly equal tonnage I could substitute a Yamato with 14 Akizuki class DDs or up to 26 C1 type subs.


(in reply to Riva Ridge)
Post #: 20
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/10/2006 5:06:14 AM   
GaryChildress

 

Posts: 6830
Joined: 7/17/2005
From: The Divided Nations of Earth
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: temagic

I'd say give me 3 Yamato-class CVs, capable of carrying 120 aircrafts in airgroups, instead of the storage place originally designed for the Shinano. 360 a/c would be really good in the year 1942/1943...

Or, convert the 3 ships to scrap metal and produce Zeros and Bettys (app. 30 000 total a/c) - Oh, and of course, train the pilots to fly those machines

:)


Carriers are a possibility. For roughly the same tonnage 3 Unryus could be built per Yamato.

This opens up a whole new can of worms. In place of the Yamatos the IJN could have any number of different combinations of more useful warships.

(in reply to temagic)
Post #: 21
RE: Looking for Feedback - 11/10/2006 11:27:31 AM   
temagic


Posts: 169
Joined: 7/26/2006
From: The land of trolls
Status: offline 		unryus... pfff... those are tin cans waiting to be sunk. No, we need Yamato-class CVs...

:)

(in reply to GaryChildress)
Post #: 22
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