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Can't attach corps to Army

 
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Can't attach corps to Army - 12/14/2006 8:48:05 AM   
USSLockwood

 

Posts: 543
Joined: 8/16/2002
Status: offline 		I have a problem attaching a fourth corps to the Army of the Potomac. The AOTP has 3 corps already attached, but wll not accept a fourth. According to the manual, this shouldn't be a problem. Any ideas?

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RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/14/2006 9:25:29 AM   
jsaurman

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 6/28/2000
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		You probably are maxed out on manpower or divisions.  An army can accept only a total of 8 corps *OR* 35 divisions *OR* 140,000 men.   So even if you have only three corps attached, if you are at 120,000 men, you can't attach another corps with 30,000 men.

(in reply to USSLockwood)
Post #: 2
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/14/2006 1:23:55 PM   
Tom_Doc_Holliday

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 12/14/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jsaurman

You probably are maxed out on manpower or divisions.  An army can accept only a total of 8 corps *OR* 35 divisions *OR* 140,000 men.   So even if you have only three corps attached, if you are at 120,000 men, you can't attach another corps with 30,000 men.


Is there a way to mod these limits, or will that make the game unstable?

(in reply to jsaurman)
Post #: 3
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/14/2006 3:37:43 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		The limits are moddable. I have done it. The limits are set by number of Brigades that can be in each container ( not that I can see anywhere, by number of subcontainers).

I suggest if you change one sides numbers you change the other as well. The US is set for 5 brigades a Division, 15 brigades ( I believe) a Corps and 34 brigades an Army. The Confederates are a little higher on all 3 numbers.

Gah I forget the file right now to mod. they are all in Data though and can be modified by notepad or a better program.

(in reply to Tom_Doc_Holliday)
Post #: 4
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/15/2006 7:41:52 AM   
jsaurman

 

Posts: 129
Joined: 6/28/2000
From: Alexandria, VA
Status: offline 		I only play Union, and those limits I quoted were from one of my armies in the current game.  I don't think different armies have different quotas, or do they?
I haven't modded anything.

JIM

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 5
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/15/2006 7:48:30 AM   
chris0827

 

Posts: 441
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

The limits are moddable. I have done it. The limits are set by number of Brigades that can be in each container ( not that I can see anywhere, by number of subcontainers).

I suggest if you change one sides numbers you change the other as well. The US is set for 5 brigades a Division, 15 brigades ( I believe) a Corps and 34 brigades an Army. The Confederates are a little higher on all 3 numbers.

Gah I forget the file right now to mod. they are all in Data though and can be modified by notepad or a better program.


Another totally unhistoric constraint on the union side. It's like limiting an essex class carrier to 50 planes in a WW II game to give the japanese a chance.

(in reply to Twotribes)
Post #: 6
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/15/2006 7:59:42 AM   
jimwinsor


Posts: 1076
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline 		Well no, it's actually historic; the CSA divs and corps tended to contain one extra sub unit, on average, than their Union counterparts.  This was a consequence of each sides intrinsic organizational doctrines.

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Post #: 7
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/15/2006 8:09:10 AM   
chris0827

 

Posts: 441
Joined: 11/17/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Well no, it's actually historic; the CSA divs and corps tended to contain one extra sub unit, on average, than their Union counterparts.  This was a consequence of each sides intrinsic organizational doctrines.


Confederate corps and divisions were on average larger than union ones but armies were not. In only one major battle in the entire war did a confederate army outnumber a union army and that was when Longstreet reinforced Bragg at Chickamauga. It impossible to create an Army of the Potomac that is equal in size to the historic one in this game.

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Post #: 8
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/15/2006 8:10:51 AM   
chris0827

 

Posts: 441
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline 		I forgot to add that confederate brigades were almost always smaller than union brigades in the war.

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Post #: 9
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/15/2006 3:49:36 PM   
jimwinsor


Posts: 1076
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline 		A theoretical army limit of "8 corps *OR* 35 divisions *OR* 140,000 men" seems to me would hold the AoP.  Right?

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Post #: 10
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/15/2006 5:25:01 PM   
chris0827

 

Posts: 441
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

A theoretical army limit of "8 corps *OR* 35 divisions *OR* 140,000 men" seems to me would hold the AoP.  Right?


The last time I checked 3,000 times 35 equaled 105,000.

(in reply to jimwinsor)
Post #: 11
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/15/2006 8:07:37 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: chris0827


quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

A theoretical army limit of "8 corps *OR* 35 divisions *OR* 140,000 men" seems to me would hold the AoP.  Right?


The last time I checked 3,000 times 35 equaled 105,000.


Brigades are 3000. Divisions tend to be somewhat larger, usually.

(in reply to chris0827)
Post #: 12
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/15/2006 8:27:21 PM   
jimwinsor


Posts: 1076
Joined: 11/21/2005
Status: offline 		Actually, no, I think I might have been mistaken...I was copying the 35 Divisions reference from someone else above...but looking the files I am beginning to think it IS actually 35 Brigades as a limit...

That being the case (?) then yeah, it makes sense to boost that number for the Union to 50...maybe allow then a ~150K man AoP that way.

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Post #: 13
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/15/2006 9:33:34 PM   
chris0827

 

Posts: 441
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jimwinsor

Actually, no, I think I might have been mistaken...I was copying the 35 Divisions reference from someone else above...but looking the files I am beginning to think it IS actually 35 Brigades as a limit...

That being the case (?) then yeah, it makes sense to boost that number for the Union to 50...maybe allow then a ~150K man AoP that way.


It is brigades but I think the manual says divisions.

(in reply to jimwinsor)
Post #: 14
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/18/2006 11:50:43 AM   
Tom_Doc_Holliday

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 12/14/2006
Status: offline 		I did some digging into the Battle of Gettysburg and came up with the following numbers for the AoP and ANV.

AoP in game terms would have had:
1 Army container
8 Corps containers (including 1 Cavalry Corps)
23 Division containers (including 1 Artillery Division at the Army level - the "Arty Res")
75 Brigades or equivalents (I looked at artillery Battalions as equivalent to a FoF Brigade)
I forgot to write the total strength down, but I believe it was ~125,000.

ANV in game terms would have had:
1 Army container
4 Corps containers (including 1 Cavalry Corps)
9 Division containers
60 Brigades or equivalents
Same mistake for strength, ~95,000.

As you can see the AoP had many more containers, but not that many more Brigades or troops overall. The USA Corps and Divisions tended to be smaller than their CSA counterparts.

Recommend the group limits be changed to the following:
USA
Army container - 10 units (Corps, Division, or directly attached Brigade) with a max of 8 Corps per
Corps container - 5 units (Division or directly attached Brigade) with a max of 3 Division per
Division container - max of 4 Brigades
Total # of troops - 150,000

CSA
Army container - 6 units (Corps, Division, or directly attached Brigade) with a max of 5 Corps per
Corps container - 8 units (Division or directly attached Brigade) with a max of 4 Division per
Division container - max of 6 Brigades
Total # of troops - 120,000

I think this will give more of the historical organization people are asking for, but maintain some flexibility for the player to work with.

Doc




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Post #: 15
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/18/2006 2:15:05 PM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline 		One quick question? Where and when did you find a Confederate Army of 120,000? Wouldn't 90,000 be more correct? The South's real "organization" advantage seems to have been in needing fewer commanders within their armies because their sub-units could hold more---thus allowing them to pick and choose for leadership quality better. Though even that wasn't always the case..., some of the Union Corps at Chancelorsville were quite a large as anything the Rebels every fielded.

(in reply to Tom_Doc_Holliday)
Post #: 16
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/18/2006 2:17:08 PM   
Twotribes


Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline 		The game does NOT actually limit containers inside containers. The limit is based solely on brigades. Or at least that is my experience. I can put 4 divisions in a Corps now as the US as long as I dont exceed the brigade count, havent found a need to put 5 divisions inside a corps yet. Rule states 3 Divisions max in a Corps for the US.

And when one checks the file with the listed limits all you find is one number which would seem to be Brigades.

(in reply to Tom_Doc_Holliday)
Post #: 17
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/18/2006 3:52:39 PM   
ericbabe


Posts: 11927
Joined: 3/23/2005
Status: offline 		It's true there's no strength limit per se, just a brigade limit.  (The incidental strength limit follows from the brigade limit...)

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Post #: 18
RE: Can't attach corps to Army - 12/18/2006 4:46:01 PM   
Tom_Doc_Holliday

 

Posts: 10
Joined: 12/14/2006
Status: offline 		With regards to total strength, I intentionally increased the amounts found in the ACW in order to give the player an ability to do things slightly ahistorical. That is why I recommended a cap on the Union at 150,000. Also over historical numbers by a small margin.

The rest of my suggestions seem to be mute given ericbabe's admission that the only other cap is Brigades.


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(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 19
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