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RE: Japan Map - 1/11/2007 2:33:45 AM

Incy

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Here is what I was envisioning.
Not sure about the terrain NW and W of Vlad, I think maybe NW should be clear, and W should be mountain

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< Message edited by Incy -- 1/11/2007 2:47:07 AM >

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 121

RE: Japan Map - 1/11/2007 2:38:12 AM

Incy

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btw, if preserving the status of WiFFE is a goal, the vlad resource should be on the coast next to Vlad. In WiFFE it's common that Japan produces for the resource while russia still holds Vlad

(in reply to Incy)

Post #: 122

RE: Japan Map - 1/11/2007 2:45:35 AM

trees

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I thought "Nomohan" was a river? Is it maybe a river too small to make the WiF map? On the other hand for some reason the expression "the plains of Nomohan" from some history book sticks in my mind. There would definitely be a lot of interest in where exactly this place was by any MWiF player.

(in reply to Incy)

Post #: 123

RE: Japan Map - 1/11/2007 10:26:09 AM

jesperpehrson

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quote:

ORIGINAL: trees

I thought "Nomohan" was a river? Is it maybe a river too small to make the WiF map? On the other hand for some reason the expression "the plains of Nomohan" from some history book sticks in my mind. There would definitely be a lot of interest in where exactly this place was by any MWiF player.

That is somewhere closer to Mongolia though no?

(in reply to trees)

Post #: 124

RE: Japan Map - 1/11/2007 5:50:57 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy

Here is what I was envisioning.
Not sure about the terrain NW and W of Vlad, I think maybe NW should be clear, and W should be mountain

I find this not bad at all.
I'd even say that this is very good.

Thanks

I'll see, if Steve agrees, to have the lake shifted by the graphic artist. I'm not even obliged to ask the graphic artist to do that, i can also simply change the name of the RVR files that make the lake, and shift them 1 hexrow.
Changing the border is trivial to do too.

Steve, others, opinion ?

(in reply to Incy)

Post #: 125

RE: Japan Map - 1/11/2007 5:52:08 PM

Froonp

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quote:

Not sure about the terrain NW and W of Vlad, I think maybe NW should be clear, and W should be mountain

I'd make hex W of Vlad mountains, and hex NW clear, this is the best representation of the local area.

(in reply to Incy)

Post #: 126

RE: Japan Map - 1/11/2007 6:04:05 PM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy

btw, if preserving the status of WiFFE is a goal, the vlad resource should be on the coast next to Vlad. In WiFFE it's common that Japan produces for the resource while russia still holds Vlad

Yes, but there also the goal of making a faithfull map to reality, and here the coal deposits are not on the shore, they are quite inland.
The case is also happening in China.

This is a 1935 map :

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Froonp -- 1/11/2007 6:15:11 PM >

(in reply to Incy)

Post #: 127

RE: Japan Map - 1/11/2007 8:26:28 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy
Here is what I was envisioning.
Not sure about the terrain NW and W of Vlad, I think maybe NW should be clear, and W should be mountain

I find this not bad at all.
I'd even say that this is very good. Thanks

I'll see, if Steve agrees, to have the lake shifted by the graphic artist. I'm not even obliged to ask the graphic artist to do that, i can also simply change the name of the RVR files that make the lake, and shift them 1 hexrow.
Changing the border is trivial to do too.

Steve, others, opinion ?

Moving the lake to the right appears to require no new bitmap graphics, though if we decide to do that, Rob will need to be informed so he can modify his master version of the map so they match.

Positioning the lake eastwards brings it more in line with geographic reality, which is a good thing. I do not know about changing the country boundaries. People with maps of the area circa 1940 can judge better than I can.

I believe all the terrain around the lake would need to be reviewed. Indeed, that should be done for all the hexes between Vladivostok and the lake too.

If we are going to mess around with area, then we should make sure we get it right. I do not want to keep coming back for additional modifications repeatedly.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 128

RE: Japan Map - 1/11/2007 8:28:37 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

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I forgot to add:

The new city/cities in Manchuria should be shown. Moving the country border is going to mean the some hexes in Manchuria will again be out of supply for the Japanese.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 129

RE: Japan Map - 1/11/2007 11:28:29 PM

Froonp

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quote:

Moving the lake to the right appears to require no new bitmap graphics, though if we decide to do that, Rob will need to be informed so he can modify his master version of the map so they match.

Positioning the lake eastwards brings it more in line with geographic reality, which is a good thing. I do not know about changing the country boundaries. People with maps of the area circa 1940 can judge better than I can.

I believe all the terrain around the lake would need to be reviewed. Indeed, that should be done for all the hexes between Vladivostok and the lake too.

If we are going to mess around with area, then we should make sure we get it right. I do not want to keep coming back for additional modifications repeatedly.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
I forgot to add:
The new city/cities in Manchuria should be shown. Moving the country border is going to mean the some hexes in Manchuria will again be out of supply for the Japanese.

Here is what I propose, seen on this map.
- Yellow arrows show where I moved borders.
- Cian arrows show where the lake hexsides have moved (as Incy proposed).
- Pink "T" show where Terrain was changed (to mountain).

I added Kirin, which should stay on the map, and Tsitsihar, just for the sake of seeing how it was to put it on.
I did not push the border between Manchuria & Russia on all 3 hexes, only the most northward and the most southward ones, because the borderline here west of Lake Khanka is more like a straight vertical line. So the middle hex could have been either on one side, or the other, and to go with minimal changes, I chose to let it how it was.

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(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 130

RE: Japan Map - 1/11/2007 11:36:48 PM

Froonp

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I did not change the railway crossroads north of Vlad, as Incy did, because I think it is better represented as this.

Here is a august 1945 map of the area.
The border (black line ) can be seen between the red and green armies west of Vlad, the vertical line west of the lake.
We can also see that the crossroad (Voroshilov) is more to the south, as it is on my drawing.

As a note, we can also see that there is a railway linking Khabarovsk to Komsomolsk, to Soverskaya Gavan, showing that the Russians had built it as of August 1945. But this I already knew, as the Russian guy I talked to told me. It is a part of the Baikal Amur railway that was built at the end of the war, from the east.

We also see that the railway in Manchuria (in august 1945) extended all the way to Aigun, near Blago&%$$ in the north.

We also see that the terrain is mostly mountains west of the lake, swampy in the north end, we also see that the Vlad - Voroshilov - Khanka area is mostly plains.

This all lead me to think that this modifications shown in post #130 is good.

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(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 131

RE: Japan Map - 1/11/2007 11:50:52 PM

Peter Stauffenberg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Froonp

quote:

Moving the lake to the right appears to require no new bitmap graphics, though if we decide to do that, Rob will need to be informed so he can modify his master version of the map so they match.

Positioning the lake eastwards brings it more in line with geographic reality, which is a good thing. I do not know about changing the country boundaries. People with maps of the area circa 1940 can judge better than I can.

I believe all the terrain around the lake would need to be reviewed. Indeed, that should be done for all the hexes between Vladivostok and the lake too.

If we are going to mess around with area, then we should make sure we get it right. I do not want to keep coming back for additional modifications repeatedly.

I think this version by Froonp looks very well. Great work.

I support adding both new cities in Manchuria (Kirin and Tsitsibar).

< Message edited by Borger Borgersen -- 1/12/2007 12:01:59 AM >

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 132

RE: Japan Map - 1/12/2007 12:32:58 AM

lomyrin

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Looks very good to me too.

Lars

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)

Post #: 133

RE: Japan Map - 1/12/2007 1:39:19 AM

YohanTM2

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I think the resource by Vlad should be on the coast as well.

(in reply to lomyrin)

Post #: 134

RE: Japan Map - 1/12/2007 1:49:28 AM

Incy

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I like it!!

As for the Vlad resource, since this is coal, and given how it is located, I think it would not be usable unless Vladivostok is controlled by the same side. So I think the current map represents this well. But in game terms, japan wil loose out, because in WiFFE this is a resource that is easlily accessible to Japan.
I support the map as it is now, but moving this resource could be considered for game balance if Japan needs a boost after we see how things playtest.

btw, the little stub of railway in Manchuria near Vlad should be moved one hex east.

The terrain also looks good to me.

Moving a bit further east, I think maybe the coastal mountains east of Vlad should extend one more hex inland at places.
From a logistical and military perspective, it seems pretty obvious that the only good axis of advace between Vlad and Khabarovsk is along the river valley, where the rail goes. I think if Japan wants to fight northwards along the rail from Vlad (or the russians the other way) they should not enjoy the advantage of a 2-hex wide gap with nice terrain, and the map you posted above sure looks mountainous almost all the way to the river.

Finally, I would be interested in learning when the Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk rail was built. Komsomolsk and Sovietskaya Gayan was built late in the war, but I've read no mention of when Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk was built.

Incy

(in reply to lomyrin)

Post #: 135

RE: Japan Map - 1/12/2007 1:50:27 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan

I think the resource by Vlad should be on the coast as well.

Read post #127 above for Patrice's discussion about the resource being on the coast.

-----------------
I like this version.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to YohanTM2)

Post #: 136

RE: Japan Map - 1/12/2007 2:10:54 AM

Peter Stauffenberg

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy
Finally, I would be interested in learning when the Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk rail was built. Komsomolsk and Sovietskaya Gayan was built late in the war, but I've read no mention of when Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk was built.

Incy

Look at this link:
http://www.trans-siberian-rail.com/trans-siberian-railroad-stopovers.html?city=7&name=Khabarovsk

It says that Khabarovsk was finally linked by railroad to Komsomolsk in 1940. So it means the Russians started to build the railroad earlier than 1940. So maybe this is early enough to place a railroad between Khabarovsk and Komsomolsk on the MWIF map?

< Message edited by Borger Borgersen -- 1/12/2007 2:23:26 AM >

(in reply to Incy)

Post #: 137

RE: Japan Map - 1/12/2007 8:48:10 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Borger Borgersen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Incy
Finally, I would be interested in learning when the Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk rail was built. Komsomolsk and Sovietskaya Gayan was built late in the war, but I've read no mention of when Khabarovsk-Komsomolsk was built.

Incy

Look at this link:
http://www.trans-siberian-rail.com/trans-siberian-railroad-stopovers.html?city=7&name=Khabarovsk

It says that Khabarovsk was finally linked by railroad to Komsomolsk in 1940. So it means the Russians started to build the railroad earlier than 1940. So maybe this is early enough to place a railroad between Khabarovsk and Komsomolsk on the MWIF map?

Read this again :

**********************************************************
Siberia - Wsevolod" <wsevolod@tdk-n.com>

Hello, Patrice!

I am glad for your interest for our subject.
The history of BAM- in short- is sush.
Indeed,the beginning of BAM construction attributs to 1930. It was very difficult to construct without any mechanism. It was the result of slow work. In the second part of 1930 the government sent many political prisoners to construct Transsib- Just Skovorodino, there was one of the parts of Gulag. "A little BAM" was opened in 1940, the rail-tracks connected Tinda and Skovorodino.
But the beginning of the Second World War stopped the building because all the people-builders were sent to the front. In 1942 the ready construction (part Skovorodino-Tinda) was quickly stripped (or dismantled) and the rail-tracks were sent to Stalingrad, where before the well-known Stalingrad Battle the rocad railway lines (parallel to the main front) has been constructed. It was very important to supply technics and food products for Soviet troops!
From 1943(!) started (with great secrecy) the construction of the east extension of BAM the line Komsomolsk-Soviet Gavan on the Far East / but after the end of the Second World War we had one more serious enemy in the East-Japan.
Under bad conditions, without roads, the building of the railway in the East started.
In 1945(!) this line was put into operation (on the eve of the Victory). War technics, fuel resourcts, food were transfered to Soviet Gavan.
In August 1945 the USSR began active actions against the ally of Germany- Japan/
Thancs to the fact that railway was ready soviet troops crushed Japan in 2 weeks.
In 1951 the line Izvestkovaja-Urgal was constructed. In 1954 the rails reached Ust-Kut (on Lena river).
Since 1970 began the main buildng of BAM joining all of these points Ust-Kut - Tinda - Urgal - Komsomolsk.
Just is the history in short, my dear!

With best regards.
Wsevolod.
**********************************************************

So he says that a lot of the pre-1940 railway was dismantled and used for the frontline, and I think that this part of the railway (Khabarovsk - Komsomolsk) may not have been operational.

This thought is reinforced by the fact that this railway does not appear neither on my 1935 nor my 1944 Atlas (I'll check again tonight to be sure).

Morover, there already was complaint about the mere existence in WiF of Komsomolsk, so I would not want to add more complaint by adding a railway to it, that seems not justified.

(in reply to Peter Stauffenberg)

Post #: 138

RE: Japan Map - 1/12/2007 8:54:24 AM

Froonp

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quote:

Moving a bit further east, I think maybe the coastal mountains east of Vlad should extend one more hex inland at places.
From a logistical and military perspective, it seems pretty obvious that the only good axis of advace between Vlad and Khabarovsk is along the river valley, where the rail goes. I think if Japan wants to fight northwards along the rail from Vlad (or the russians the other way) they should not enjoy the advantage of a 2-hex wide gap with nice terrain, and the map you posted above sure looks mountainous almost all the way to the river.

For me they are more like rolling hills, so I think that the forest terrain might be ok. Forest is not just "nice terrain", and anyway any northward advance is channeled by the railway for supply.

(in reply to Incy)

Post #: 139

RE: Japan Map - 1/12/2007 9:22:12 AM

Froonp

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quote:

btw, the little stub of railway in Manchuria near Vlad should be moved one hex east.

I don't think so.
Looking at map in post #131, we see that this stub is the start of a northward going railway that got completed by august 1945, and it was at about two thirds of the way from Harbin to the Lake. Its position on map in post #130 show it is properly placed imo.

(in reply to Incy)

Post #: 140

RE: Japan Map - 1/12/2007 11:29:31 PM

Incy

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quote:

"A little BAM" was opened in 1940, the rail-tracks connected Tinda and Skovorodino.
But the beginning of the Second World War stopped the building because all the people-builders were sent to the front. In 1942 the ready construction (part Skovorodino-Tinda) was quickly stripped (or dismantled) and the rail-tracks were sent to Stalingrad

This has nothing to do with Komsomolsk.
The Skovorodino-Tinda line runs N/NW starting from roughly the "top" of manchuria. Indeed, it could also be put on the map, but would have vey little game impact, as it leads to nowhere. And it was also deconstructed during the war.

quote:

I don't think so.
Looking at map in post #131, we see that this stub is the start of a northward going railway that got completed by august 1945, and it was at about two thirds of the way from Harbin to the Lake. Its position on map in post #130 show it is properly placed imo.

Atually, there are 2 separate railroads. There was a railroad running into the swamp just west of the border, almost to lake Khanka. It isn't on the military map, but is in the maps in posts 127 and in the wikipedia map. The railroad you mention is also a consideration. As you say, it was extended during the war, and it seems it was a pretty well established transport corridor.

Here is a map with some possible adjustments, I'm not saying they should all go in, (especially the grey parts).

-Korea looses a hex to Manchuria
-railroad rerouted in NW Korea
-link from Korea border and nortwards. The parts I believe were constructed during the war (based on the maps above) are in grey, not black. Maybe they could be roads??!
-Link near the boarder to lake Kanka (there are coalfields there)
-link we forgot south of Changchun
-the railroad in the west near Nomonohan is way to short? (again, road near the end?).
-In the bottom west corner, I've dotted some rail in red. I can't see this rail in any of the maps posted in this thread! I know you have it in your war atlas, but all the other maps indicate it's not there? It's a fairly critical raillink, as without it, a single PART/invading unit can cut Manchria and China apart
-I've drawn in where I believe the Komsomolsk rail would start

Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Incy -- 1/12/2007 11:41:03 PM >

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 141

RE: Japan Map - 1/13/2007 12:21:04 AM

Froonp

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quote:

Atually, there are 2 separate railroads. There was a railroad running into the swamp just west of the border, almost to lake Khanka. It isn't on the military map, but is in the maps in posts 127 and in the wikipedia map. The railroad you mention is also a consideration. As you say, it was extended during the war, and it seems it was a pretty well established transport corridor.

You're right that there are 2 separate railways. The most advanced one is the one near Lake Khanka as you said, so I'll move the bit already drawn. The other one is non existent in 1935. I'll what it becomes on the 1940 Atlas I should receive soon.

quote:

-Korea looses a hex to Manchuria
-railroad rerouted in NW Korea

Why ? Korea seem good to me as it is. I prefer to make minimal changes.

quote:

-link from Korea border and nortwards. The parts I believe were constructed during the war (based on the maps above) are in grey, not black. Maybe they could be roads??!

My opinion is no to roads. Either railways or nothing. Roads are exceptionally rarely used in WiF.
As for this link, it is absent from WiF FE maps, so I prefer leaving it out.

quote:

-Link near the boarder to lake Kanka (there are coalfields there)
-link we forgot south of Changchun

It seems to be a late war bit. I prefer to leave it out too. Manchuria begins to get too much railways !

quote:

-the railroad in the west near Nomonohan is way to short? (again, road near the end?).

I'll see how long it seems in 1940.

quote:

-In the bottom west corner, I've dotted some rail in red. I can't see this rail in any of the maps posted in this thread! I know you have it in your war atlas, but all the other maps indicate it's not there? It's a fairly critical raillink, as without it, a single PART/invading unit can cut Manchria and China apart

This one is present on my 1944 map, and not on my 1935 map. But as it is present on the WiF FE map, I suppose it should stay on the MWiF maps.

quote:

-I've drawn in where I believe the Komsomolsk rail would start

I'll see on the 1940 maps whether it appears or not, but I'd prefer to leave it out.

Finaly, the only thing I would agree, would be to shift the small rail bit 1 hex to the east, as you initially asked.

Anyway, except all those rail bickering, do people agree for the changes with Lake Khanka being shifted to the east, as shown on post 130 and 141 ? The railways can be changed easily, but the lake won't be changeable again after.

I wonder if it would be slightly better to have the lake cover the hexside between both cian arrows, rather than the one it currently covers. It would seems to be less on the north-south russian border, and more on the east-west border.

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(in reply to Incy)

Post #: 142

RE: Japan Map - 1/13/2007 12:26:20 AM

Froonp

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Here is what it would be as I propose it.

For the length of the eastern bit towards Nomonhan, the Khabarovsk to Komsomolsk (I would prefer it to stay out) and the little Kirin link, I'll see on my 1940 maps yet to be received.

I'll also see on my 1940 map if the railway that goes from Tsitsihar to China (not represented here -- that currently stops in the hex NW of the "MA" of Manchuria), who runs parallel to the one from Harbin to Mukden, should exist or not.

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(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 143

RE: Japan Map - 1/13/2007 12:29:12 AM

Froonp

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Here is also a reminder of how it is in WiF FE.

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(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 144

RE: Japan Map - 1/13/2007 1:32:11 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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I prefer the lake farther east (right side of the map), mainly because it then places the swamp to the west of the lake. From the map of the terrain in the area (posted earlier) the swamp should be to the west of the lake and not to its north or NE.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Froonp)

Post #: 145

RE: Japan Map - 1/13/2007 1:53:35 AM

Froonp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I prefer the lake farther east (right side of the map), mainly because it then places the swamp to the west of the lake. From the map of the terrain in the area (posted earlier) the swamp should be to the west of the lake and not to its north or NE.

OK.

By looking at previous posts, it seems you agreed to Tsitsihar being a city too ?

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 146

RE: Japan Map - 1/13/2007 4:52:19 AM

YohanTM2

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan

I think the resource by Vlad should be on the coast as well.

Read post #127 above for Patrice's discussion about the resource being on the coast.

-----------------
I like this version.

I am referring to play balance, I like it the way it was

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 147

RE: Japan Map - 1/13/2007 5:13:34 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan

quote:

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yohan
I think the resource by Vlad should be on the coast as well.

Read post #127 above for Patrice's discussion about the resource being on the coast.

-----------------
I like this version.

I am referring to play balance, I like it the way it was

Sorry, but at this point I am not sure what your 'it' refers to.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to YohanTM2)

Post #: 148

RE: Japan Map - 1/16/2007 1:30:49 AM

Froonp

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Here is how the Manchuria / Russian Far East near Vladivostok is looking now, after I have made the modifications shown in post #143. The changes are :
- Shifted Lake Khanka 1 hex E.
- Added Tsitsihar city in Manchuria.
- Added a bit of railway at Korea / Russia border.
- Added a bit of railway West of Lake Khanka (moved it 1 hex E indeed).
- Made hex 61,159 & 63,159 Manchurians.
- Made hex 64,160 mountain