The Illusion of “community”

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The Illusion of “community” - 2/3/2007 3:39:12 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
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Damned if I do, damned if I don’t. Can’t quit, can’t stay.

It’s only a forum; there never was a “community” here per se. It’s a clever illusion, but it’s an illusion all the same. I don’t require agreement on this by the way; I’ve had 7 years to reach this conclusion.
I have posted in the past, as if I was meeting with people, and conversing in actual conversations. That leads to an unfortunate belief. It makes it easy to assume I AM interacting, when really I am not. The only solution is to discard the illusion of community and finally get over the fact I was mistaken. That likely means dropping posting on topics that don’t mean anything.

Our posts are devoid of crucial elements necessary to REAL human discourse. Body language, tone of voice, subtle word use inflection are all vital components of proper communication (smilies simply don’t cut it). My posts rarely “look” exactly the way I require. What I post is essentially missing too many elements of real conversation. It’s no surprise responses are constantly “unfortunate” as a result.

A forum is just an emagazine with many contributors. It can be read, and discarded casually. Being free, it is valued like all free things inevitably are. Maybe it shouldn’t be free.
The Matrix Games forums are not why I like Matrix Games. I have never bought one of their games based on the merits of their forums. I bought them on the merits of the game. I do not actually need the Matrix Games forums beyond their ability to keep me informed about information critical to the games I have bought. Thus non game related posts have next to no long term merit.

I plan to stop pretending I am standing in a room full of persons. My posts have only as much value as the reader attaches. But the posts I read of others also only have only as much value as the poster gave them. Some posts are good, most are average, and there is always the schlock. But it is just reading material; it is not a communal experience. I just wish “Matrix Legion of Merit” was something earned from other than a massive sum of posts.

Anyway, If you want to get to know the real me, you’re going to have to actually meet me for real.
This post was not designed to generate friction, merely an FYI on what and how I am thinking. Forums have been both good and bad for me. I’m trying to remove the “bad” part.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

Post #: 1

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/3/2007 3:52:52 PM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

Took you 7 years to realize this? lol

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 2

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/3/2007 3:58:40 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

Well that's the problem with "clever" illusions :)

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 3

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/3/2007 5:44:16 PM

hueglin

Posts: 297
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Kingston, ON, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

Our posts are devoid of crucial elements necessary to REAL human discourse. Body language, tone of voice, subtle word use inflection are all vital components of proper communication (smilies simply don’t cut it). My posts rarely “look” exactly the way I require. What I post is essentially missing too many elements of real conversation. It’s no surprise responses are constantly “unfortunate” as a result.

These statements would imply that none of the body of literature that exists is REAL human discourse. I think perhaps what you mean to say is that there is a real difference between discourse in writing and a discourse in face to face communication. They are both effective forms of communication - but each has its advantages and disadvantages.

Because writing uses only words and puncutation, it should be much more carefullly crafted than verbal conversation in order to avoid misunderstanding. By the same token, written form allows the communicator to reflect and collect their thoughts before stating their opinion; this is often not possible in verbal conversation because the audience expects an immediate response.

A community, to me, is a group of people who share something in common, be it geography, race, religion or, in our case, interest. We are brought together by our interest and share our ideas. I think there is value in that - even if it has no real lasting impact on the world.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 4

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/3/2007 5:50:42 PM

Kuokkanen

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
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Forums can be part of community. Some people might even think forums and/or newsgroups can be enough for community. Clever illusions indeed.

What comes to definition of community, Wikipedia says this:

quote:

A community usually refers to a group of people who interact and share certain things as a group

WWW forums, newsgroups, IRC, TeamSpeak and rest of it definitely fills this criteria. But there can be more to it, and apparently Les wants more, what ever that is.

I have realized myself that playing Classic BattleTech with other people by using computers isn't really same thing like playing chess or Monopoly by face to face. Advantage with computers, Internet and Internet communications is that it's much easier to find other people who are interested about CBT and other wargames.

However playing wargames with miniatures might have something more as community than playing wargames with computers. But sometimes it feels like there are more people closer by Internet than by other means: I still haven't found dedicated person to play CBT with miniatures, dices and record sheets

_____________________________

You know what they say, don't you? About how us MechWarriors are the modern knights, how warfare has become civilized now that we have to abide by conventions and rules of war. Don't believe it.

MekWars

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 5

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/4/2007 12:22:22 AM

Titanwarrior89

Posts: 3283
Joined: 8/28/2003
From: arkansas
Status: offline

I would agree. It was hard in the past to meet anyone to play almost any type of wargame(board game). It is much easier than before with the common interest, internet and pbem.

It may not be a community, but its all I have in this hobby. Most of my gaming buddies live miles away.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

Forums can be part of community. Some people might even think forums and/or newsgroups can be enough for community. Clever illusions indeed.

What comes to definition of community, Wikipedia says this:

quote:

A community usually refers to a group of people who interact and share certain things as a group

WWW forums, newsgroups, IRC, TeamSpeak and rest of it definitely fills this criteria. But there can be more to it, and apparently Les wants more, what ever that is.

I have realized myself that playing Classic BattleTech with other people by using computers isn't really same thing like playing chess or Monopoly by face to face. Advantage with computers, Internet and Internet communications is that it's much easier to find other people who are interested about CBT and other wargames.

However playing wargames with miniatures might have something more as community than playing wargames with computers. But sometimes it feels like there are more people closer by Internet than by other means: I still haven't found dedicated person to play CBT with miniatures, dices and record sheets

_____________________________

"Before Guadalcanal the enemy advanced at his pleasure. After Guadalcanal, he retreated at ours".

"Mama, There's Rabbits in the Garden"

(in reply to Kuokkanen)

Post #: 6

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/4/2007 12:49:30 AM

JAMiAM

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I like to think of wargaming forums as roughly equivalent to a non-stop gaming convention, only with cheaper food, closer toilet facilities, better ventilation, and much less body odor.

(in reply to Titanwarrior89)

Post #: 7

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/4/2007 3:25:45 AM

Prince of Eckmühl

Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Our posts are devoid of crucial elements necessary to REAL human discourse. Body language, tone of voice, subtle word use inflection are all vital components of proper communication (smilies simply don’t cut it).

That's why you have to careful as to how you approach others. It's too easy to be misunderstood, 'Net personas too easily bruised. And don't think that the wounds will simply disappear with time.

I've moderated two fairly active groups, one a company forum associated with two specific games, and a second, a fansite, again associated with two (other) games. Looking back, I can't help but believe that they were notable for their atmosphere, an ambience that was at once both congenial and collegial. I'd like to grant at least partial credit for this to myself, but modesty and the role of so many others in shaping the communities deters me from doing so.

Still, the forums had some things in common:

1) Posters weren't allowed to use the forums to generate personal profit.

2) Posters were treated fairly, without regard to their "rank" within the forum.

3) Posters weren't allowed to dissemble, to "manage" discussion in such a way as to benefit themselves or their associates.

4) Moderators moderated; they weren't closet front-men for third parties.

5) MOST IMPORTANTLY, the forums were about the game(s). As long as you were active because you were interested in OUR games, you were TOTALLY welcome and were treated as such.

About that last point...

If, at any point, game-disussion groups, either a company forum, like this one, or one associated with a fansite, become a vehicle for anything other than (the) game(s), then school's out. The discussion will be devoid of useful discourse because the games aren't the focus of members' energy. What's left will be an agenda, attired in the cloak of an advocate, one whose ends are his own, and not those of the general good. And the best intentioned group member will be unable to make it otherwise. That's just the way that these joints work.

PoE (aka ivanmoe)

< Message edited by Prince of Eckmühl -- 2/4/2007 3:39:08 AM >

_____________________________

Government is the opiate of the masses.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 8

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/4/2007 4:07:25 AM

Rooster

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Joined: 1/9/2001
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1
Our posts are devoid of crucial elements necessary to REAL human discourse. Body language, tone of voice, subtle word use inflection are all vital components of proper communication (smilies simply don’t cut it).

Hmmmm. Nothing wrong with what you say, but I would hope to challenge you.

Not that these forums could be a replacement for in-person intercourse (tee heee!). But they can be a nice addition. Or even account for a large portion of your day to day interaction.

After all, what is the true value of real human intercourse? I mean, if I lie to someone face to face, ignore them, patronize them, fail to really listen because I'm only concerned about what I say next, dismiss them, belittle them, verbally abuse them, physically abuse them, or become a victim of any of these "real" human interactions, what's the value?

Fulfillment in interacting online is more about expectations and ideas. It's more about the treatment you receive and give. It might never be AS good as the "real" thing... but it can be a nice side of french fries with your hamburger.

It can be hard to communicate this way - often I feel like my posts miss their mark too. But it's sort of like golfing for me... it only takes a good swing out of 90 (more like 120

) to make me want to keep coming back for more.

_____________________________

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Post #: 9

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/4/2007 4:15:52 AM

old man of the sea

Posts: 454
Joined: 2/6/2004
From: Waynesboro, PA
Status: offline

what......you mean.......this isn't real?

What!?!

Uhhhhhhh, like you know, I've been on forums of one sort or another for 15 years, and I got all that down in a day 15 years ago.

I do agree with you les the sarge.

E

_____________________________

"Point me to a 'civilised' part of the General Forum and I'll steer way clear of it." - Soddball

Some people can tell what time it is by looking at the sun, but I never have been able to make out the numbers.

(in reply to Rooster)

Post #: 10

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/4/2007 8:16:19 AM

ravinhood

Posts: 3891
Joined: 10/23/2003
Status: offline

If you started out on AOL like I did you learned pretty fast what the internet was about. Lying, back stabbing, cheating, griping, whinning, complaining, crying, scams, broken hearts, heart breaking, vulgarity (lot of this), political, religious bull bashing, enuendo's of all kinds, threats, and much much more. Because of this is the reason I never saw much reason for making "friendships" over the internet. Too many variables and I personally like to see into the eyes of someone I'm considering for friendship. So, no really there is no such thing as a community such as you have in your own little pockets of life. It's more like just a gathering of "minds" to argue basically. lol Thing is I don't argue with my friends, we always pretty much agree on things from what beer to drink to which game we're gonna play or watch on tv (sports). Don't see much of that on the internet. ;)

(in reply to old man of the sea)

Post #: 11

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/4/2007 12:37:04 PM

Raverdave

Posts: 6520
Joined: 2/8/2002
From: Melb. Australia
Status: offline

Actully from this forum I have met a number of people in the "flesh" and have found them to all be good blokes. Some are even good mates.

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Never argue with an idiot, he will only drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

(in reply to ravinhood)

Post #: 12

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/4/2007 1:08:16 PM

jvgfanatic

Posts: 301
Joined: 8/18/2005
From: Scarborough, Yorkshire
Status: offline

I started a website several years back devoted to a certain type of game. It grew to about 30 or so contributors who all gave it there best over 9 or so years. The site itself has since closed its doors but it's forums still run quite strong. We are a group of people that would go above and beyond for each other. Three of us have have started families and almost everyone at the site has met someone else from the site in the flesh. None of us knew each other before the site's creation and in the time that the forums have been around we've all grown quite fond of one another. Our forums are pretty much closed now unless someone is invited and we see about one new member every year or two yet the forums still get several posts a day from nearly everyone. It is definitely a virtual community of sorts and we have nearly every age category on board (though most of our youngest members who were in high school when the site started are now in their twenties). Our members are from England, US, and Japan.

< Message edited by jvgfanatic -- 2/4/2007 1:21:05 PM >

(in reply to Raverdave)

Post #: 13

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/4/2007 2:51:44 PM

a white rabbit

Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline

..Les_the_Sarge_9_1..

..you know, i couldn't disagree more, you're looking at this all wrong...

..how many years have we crossed swords, citoyen ? ("comrade" in American)..

..any time you want to do this in a real bar around my geographical location, sorry but i'm real busy clearing up someone's incompetant colonial rule

in a small valley that's very dear to my heart , then you're welcome...

..be warned however, i've gone native agin ol' boy, d'mmit..

..it's a problem with being an area officer...

..doncha just luv Kipling...

_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to jvgfanatic)

Post #: 14

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/4/2007 3:40:32 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

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Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

You guys have given me a lot of things to mull over. I am happy for that.

I have to admit, been on forums for 7 years, been chatting through messengers since about 1990 (most of the before forum time was on ICQ), and I have always been too much the "want to see the good too much to notice the bad" in over all viewpoint.
As such, I guess I just took too much for granted probably.

Sometimes I marvel at how I can know so much text book knowledge, but know so little of ordinary life at the same time. I can be dreadfully naive some times.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to a white rabbit)

Post #: 15

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/4/2007 3:57:36 PM

a white rabbit

Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Les_the_Sarge_9_1

You guys have given me a lot of things to mull over. I am happy for that.

I have to admit, been on forums for 7 years, been chatting through messengers since about 1990 (most of the before forum time was on ICQ), and I have always been too much the "want to see the good too much to notice the bad" in over all viewpoint.
As such, I guess I just took too much for granted probably.

Sometimes I marvel at how I can know so much text book knowledge, but know so little of ordinary life at the same time. I can be dreadfully naive some times.

..it evolves, at the start it was native english speakers, then we got the French, the Germans, the Finns (arggh the Finns), the Poles, the Russians and so on..even some Aussies (so refreshing) and Anzacks..

..now, ? we've all moved, and others, Asian for the most part are coming in, and imo, it's also part of a white man's burden to welcome and help them..

..freedom's just some people talking..Les_t_S, nothing more..or less.....

_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 16

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/5/2007 4:45:29 AM

Zap

Posts: 3639
Joined: 12/6/2004
From: LAS VEGAS TAKE A CHANCE
Status: offline

The only way to be real for you then. Is everyone, hooked up to a web cam so you can look at the person your talking to.

Well, even if looking face to face; the persons involved in a coversation still might be hiding who they really are.

Real human discourse takes place when people represent themselves honestly no matter what form it takes.

< Message edited by Zap -- 2/5/2007 5:00:29 AM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 17

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/5/2007 5:06:18 AM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zap

The only way to be real for you then. Is everyone, hooked up to a web cam so you can look at the person your talking to.

Well, even if looking face to face; the persons involved in a coversation still might be hiding who they really are.

Real human discourse takes place when people represent themselves honestly no matter what form it takes.

It's true, in person, a person can be entirely false, fake, phoney, we usually call them politicians :)

But even though I have met persons I KNEW were not being genuine, it's usually very plain the person is not being genuine.

Still, a person that is angry, when viewed, will not be mistaken for a person in a good mood and laughing.

I have in many cases in the past, been mistaken as angry or hostile, when really, I just dropped the ball and posted a poorly written post and wasn't even close to being upset. The words just looked that way.

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to Zap)

Post #: 18

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/5/2007 6:53:40 AM

Mad Cow

Posts: 3374
Joined: 7/31/2002
Status: offline

"I'm not gone, I'm right behind you."

That may be the most disturbing thing I have ever read in someones sig.

_____________________________

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Post #: 19

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/5/2007 7:06:34 AM

Brigz

Posts: 1162
Joined: 1/20/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Cow

"I'm not gone, I'm right behind you."

That may be the most disturbing thing I have ever read in someones sig.

LOL! Totally missed seeing that sig. All it needs is a hockey mask and a butcher knife.

Sorry Les, but it is kind of spooky.

_____________________________

“You're only young once but you can be immature for as long as you want”

(in reply to Mad Cow)

Post #: 20

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/5/2007 7:44:46 AM

UndercoverNotChickenSalad

Posts: 3990
Joined: 2/19/2002
From: Denial Aisle
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Cow

"I'm not gone, I'm right behind you."

That may be the most disturbing thing I have ever read in someones sig.

Bend over, vinny

_____________________________

(in reply to Mad Cow)

Post #: 21

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/5/2007 7:52:21 AM

Mad Cow

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Joined: 7/31/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UndercoverNotChickenSalad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Cow

"I'm not gone, I'm right behind you."

That may be the most disturbing thing I have ever read in someones sig.

Bend over, vinny

_____________________________

(in reply to UndercoverNotChickenSalad)

Post #: 22

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/5/2007 11:38:39 AM

Kuokkanen

Posts: 3545
Joined: 4/2/2004
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quote:

then we got the French, the Germans, the Finns (arggh the Finns)

What's wrong with Finns

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Post #: 23

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/5/2007 2:35:17 PM

Les_the_Sarge_9_1

Posts: 4392
Joined: 12/29/2000
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: UndercoverNotChickenSalad

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mad Cow

"I'm not gone, I'm right behind you."

That may be the most disturbing thing I have ever read in someones sig.

Bend over, vinny

It's MEANT to be spooky. I'm crazier than they think, just not the crazy that they think :)

_____________________________

I LIKE that my life bothers them,
Why should I be the only one bothered by it eh.

(in reply to UndercoverNotChickenSalad)

Post #: 24

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/5/2007 6:57:35 PM

Twotribes

Posts: 6929
Joined: 2/15/2002
From: Jacksonville NC
Status: offline

Every community is Unique. It develops based on its needs and wants and its participants. The Internet is a community and is in fact many communities. No they are not all alike and NO they are not exactly like face to face communities. But so what? Every community that exsists outside the Internet is different also and has its own rules and taboos and accepted norms.

Any community one joins requires, if you want to be a successful part of said community, that you learn and grow and accept the norms of that specific community. If you cant or wont you wont fit in.

Comparing one community to another is like comparing Football and Baseball. While one can do it, they are not the same so wont lend themselves well to most comparisons.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 25

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/6/2007 3:24:21 AM

Knuckles_85

Posts: 581
Joined: 9/1/2002
From: The hell known as Wisconsin
Status: offline

I can't believe I spent 3 minutes reading this pretentious bullshit. This line from Billy Madison sums it up perfectly:

"Mr. Madison, what you've just said is one of the most insanely idiotic things I have ever heard. At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

_____________________________

Me: God that guy is annoying

Co-worker: What would Jesus do?

Me: I don't know set him on fire and send him to hell?

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 26

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/6/2007 6:08:39 PM

a white rabbit

Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matti Kuokkanen

quote:

then we got the French, the Germans, the Finns (arggh the Finns)

What's wrong with Finns

..nothing that a decent climate wouldn't rectify..

..however the few movies that actually escaped yr freezing winter/ midge ridden summer enviroment, and were at least subtitled in english were excellent..

< Message edited by a white rabbit -- 2/6/2007 6:25:21 PM >

_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to Kuokkanen)

Post #: 27

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/6/2007 6:11:20 PM

a white rabbit

Posts: 2366
Joined: 4/27/2002
From: ..under deconstruction..6N124E..
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Every community is Unique. It develops based on its needs and wants and its participants. The Internet is a community and is in fact many communities. No they are not all alike and NO they are not exactly like face to face communities. But so what? Every community that exsists outside the Internet is different also and has its own rules and taboos and accepted norms.

Any community one joins requires, if you want to be a successful part of said community, that you learn and grow and accept the norms of that specific community. If you cant or wont you wont fit in.

Comparing one community to another is like comparing Football and Baseball. While one can do it, they are not the same so wont lend themselves well to most comparisons.

..don't you mean football and cricket ?...

_____________________________

..toodA, irmAb moAs'lyB 'exper'mentin'..,..beàn'tus all..?,

(in reply to Twotribes)

Post #: 28

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/6/2007 8:09:22 PM

mlees

Posts: 2263
Joined: 9/20/2003
From: San Diego
Status: offline

quote:

Body language, tone of voice, subtle word use inflection are all vital components of proper communication (smilies simply don’t cut it).

I agree that the written word is limited in that it cannot convey gestural and facial expressions that can add a subtle change the point one is making.

quote:

My posts rarely “look” exactly the way I require. What I post is essentially missing too many elements of real conversation. It’s no surprise responses are constantly “unfortunate” as a result.

It takes practice. Keep at it!

I have been posting on different forums only for about 3-4 years now, but while my skills are only slowly improving (both my writing skills, as well as my presentation/argument point making skills), I think my experience has been for my own good.

Being exposed to more folks than the tiny circle I move in during my daily activities helps to broaden my understanding of how other folks may perceive things...

I also moderate my own posts (or at least I attempt to...) with the understanding that miscommunication can be a factor in the "conversation". I "sound" more intelligent posting on forums than I do with the spoken word because of the very nature that I can go back and self edit my responces.

(It's easier to backspace over "your an idiot" than it is to take back an uttered "your an idiot" to someone's face...)

quote:

A forum is just an emagazine with many contributors. It can be read, and discarded casually. Being free, it is valued like all free things inevitably are. Maybe it shouldn’t be free.

I am not sure if you mean that you feel that the behavior or intellectual honesty of the posters would change if the forum was a fee based membership community.

If you do, let me assure you that it definately would not. I am a member of the Straightdope board as of this year. ($15/year membership.) There are plenty of stubborn and disrespectfull folks there, too.

For me, I start to recognise individual poster's names and/or avatars, and I tend to see a pattern of either a reasonable poster, or a habitual troll. Ignore the trolls, and converse with the folks that you "get along" with.

(in reply to Les_the_Sarge_9_1)

Post #: 29

RE: The Illusion of “community” - 2/6/2007 9:45:05 PM

freeboy

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline

what we need is a whole new langauge that incorperates all the other elements, ie body langauge etc, but then we would be too self aware! oops just farted, hope that was enough body art for one day!

(in reply to mlees)

Post #: 30