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RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/19/2007 4:51:46 AM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		Ugo, salut!

Thanks for that analysis of why wargames will only be mono-lingual ... you covered everything except sample numbers for the cost benefit analysis! :)

Now, here is my question. You pointed out that despite the fact that developers are sometimes French or German speakers that development is often done in English. Why is that? Is the English speaking market that large or is English just the most common denominator for most gamers?

Oh, one other question ... why do you French speaker often refer to French (the language of Moliere) or English (the language of Shakespeare) instead of just saying "French" and just saying "English"?

Thanks.

< Message edited by MarkShot -- 1/19/2007 5:04:56 AM >

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Post #: 31
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/19/2007 5:44:09 AM   
Tzar007


Posts: 772
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From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Now, here is my question. You pointed out that despite the fact that developers are sometimes French or German speakers that development is often done in English. Why is that? Is the English speaking market that large or is English just the most common denominator for most gamers?


Exactement.

Because of the US market, the English-speaking market is indeed the largest for video games. On top of that, don't forget that lots of people who speak English as a second language do buy their games in English even if a translation in their native tongue is available (the same thing has always happened with movies and books...people find the original versions better than the translations, this also applies to video games, especially if there are lots of dialogues). All this combined makes the English market the most important, and that's why all video games company design their games in English first. This is made easier by the fact that most people working in video games companies do usually speak and understand English even if they are French or Germans. At Ubisoft, although we were designing games in English, we were working in French and speaking French between ourselves 80% of the time, since most people in my studio where French Quebecers.

quote:

Oh, one other question ... why do you French speaker often refer to French (the language of Moliere) or English (the language of Shakespeare) instead of just saying "French" and just saying "English"?


Aucune idée pourquoi on dit cela si souvent !

C'est une expression courante en français de dire la "langue de Molière" ou la "langue de Shakespeare"... but I don't know where that comes from. We use these expressions instinctively. I guess it makes you look all fancy and educated

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Post #: 32
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/19/2007 4:21:02 PM   
Cenubi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Tzar007

Tout ceci pour dire que le marché très limité des wargames ne justifie malheureusement pas des traductions je crois. Le wargaming est un art intellectuel hautement complexe, et j'ose croire que la majorité des pratiquants de langue maternelle doivent posséder en général une assez bonne maîtrise de la langue de Shakespeare... sinon et bien il est temps de s'y mettre. Bien connaître l'anglais de toute manière n'est jamais une mauvaise chose en ce bas monde ! Pour le reste, il y a des threads comme celui-ci pour aider quiconque aurait certaines difficultés à comrpendre certains aspects du jeu



Je comprends bien ton point de vue mais si le marché du wargame est aussi limité c'est aussi justement parce qu'on ne prend pas la peine de traduire le manuel...

Beaucoup de Français se débrouillent en anglais mais très peu le maîtrisent, crois-moi

C'est une drôle de stratégie commerciale que de volontairement limiter l'accès d'un titre aux seuls anglophones.

Alors oui, des threads comme celui-ci sont utiles mais pas suffisants, loin de là.
Comme je l'ai dit plus haut c'est à la communauté francophone de se bouger pour proposer un maximum d'outils à destination des joueurs qui se sentent injustement mis à l'écart pour de mauvaises raisons.

En ce qui concerne la traduction du manuel, c'est un effort qui, j'en suis sûr, se révélerait payant. Il suffit d'une poignée de volontaires et de quelques semaines de travail. C'est pas la mort

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Post #: 33
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/19/2007 5:11:10 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		Cenubi,

Sounds like to me, a classic chicken or the egg situation; which comes first?

Seriously, if you are interested in translating the documentation into French and/or coordinating such an effort, it might be worth discussing. I think the most prudent thing might be to find a limited starter set of information that needs to be made available for one to effectively enjoy the game. The old 80/20 principle.

So, are you volunteering?

(By the way, you should know that Ugo, Tzar007, did invest a few weeks worth of work on the HTTR title. He helped us to manually recover my HTTR Mini-Guide after Matrix's site was hacked and the forums were destroyed. As a non-team member, Ugo, is among a select few who has made a very substantial contribution to the series.)

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Post #: 34
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/19/2007 10:26:21 PM   
Cenubi

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

So, are you volunteering?



Bien sûr

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Post #: 35
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/19/2007 10:35:57 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		Excellent! Some thoughts:

(1) Can we build upon the PC4War work? Meaning will we big given legal access to it? Is it a good point of departure?

(2) What do you think about assembling a mini-table of content for an abridged manual as step one? Step two would be to prioritize the various sections so that the most useful areas get covered first.

(3) Should this be done as a Wiki so that it could be collaborative effort of a number of authors?

(4) I believe it is not practical to translate the entire documentation set, but maybe enough can be covered to get beyond the obstacle French speakers might have buying the game.

(5) Perhaps, since it will be too much to do this multiple times for each game, the basic organization should be:

Foundations (common to the entire series)
HTTR specifics (like supply and movement)
COTA specifics (like the new supply and movement)
BFTB specifics (still under NDA)

(6) Do you know any other French customers who might help with the project?

Thanks.

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Post #: 36
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/19/2007 11:08:44 PM   
JeF


Posts: 1170
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cenubi
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
So, are you volunteering?

Bien sûr


Whahahaha !!
Tu ne sais pas dans quoi tu mets les pieds camarades.

Mark : bien joué. Tout en subtilité, comme toujours.
Ugo : merci de partager cette expérience.

Je pensais traduire le Getting started. Il contient les principes de base de la série, les nouveautés sur COTA et surtout le tutorial. Nantis de cela, je pense qu'un joueur peu plus facilement appréhender le jeu.
Pour ma part, je pense que le travail d'A. Bonnet sur le manuel publié dans le PC4WAR est excellent et peut servir compléter et servir à préciser les différentes parties de l'interface.

Si je me porte volontaire pour ça maintenant, deux personnes vont me tuer : ma femme, qui trouve que je passe trop de temps sur ce f. ordi et Richard S. qui réclame ses cartes.

A+

JeF.

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Post #: 37
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/20/2007 3:46:58 AM   
Tzar007


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From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

(By the way, you should know that Ugo, Tzar007, did invest a few weeks worth of work on the HTTR title. He helped us to manually recover my HTTR Mini-Guide after Matrix's site was hacked and the forums were destroyed. As a non-team member, Ugo, is among a select few who has made a very substantial contribution to the series.)


MarkShot: thanks for the kind words But the Panther Prowlers and all the guys working on scenarios and data groups for the next releases of the game are pulling up the real work, and I am not even mentioning the Panther staff itself.

Cenubi: j'ai peut-être paru un peu radical dans mon évaluation, il ne fait aucun doute que des traductions en français ou autres langues ne pourrait qu'aider la popularité du jeu. Difficile à mesurer, mais ça ne pourrait pas nuire.

C'est cependant beaucoup de travail: traduire correctement un manuel de la qualité du manuel d'utilisation de COTA demande non seulement une excellente connaissance du français, mais aussi de l'anglais. Entre un manuel en français mal foutu et un manuel exclusivement anglais mais très bien fait, je préfère largement la version anglaise.

Disons que si quelqu'un décide de coordonner un effort à ce sujet, je serais probablement prêt à contribuer quelques pages de traduction et/ou révision. En français seulement, car même si ich spreche ein wenig Deutsch, je n'oserai point tenter quoique ce soit de ce côté !

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Post #: 38
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/20/2007 3:59:45 AM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		Ugo and Cenubi,

Just to let you know where we stand ... we are at the moment having some behind the scene discussions with informed sources to get a sense of the size of the French market. I think Dave may have more to say on this effort to develop some practical documentation in French after the weekend.

Once again, thank you both very much for your offers of assistance to make the game more accessible to French speakers.

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Post #: 39
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/20/2007 7:56:37 AM   
GoodGuy

 

Posts: 1506
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Cologne, Germany
Status: offline 		Hmm, il n'y a pas un forum allemand.

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Post #: 40
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/20/2007 8:18:36 AM   
Tzar007


Posts: 772
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Status: offline 		Jemand spricht Deutsch hier?

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Post #: 41
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/20/2007 11:21:52 AM   
GoodGuy

 

Posts: 1506
Joined: 5/17/2006
From: Cologne, Germany
Status: offline 		Oh ja, es gibt einige deutsche AA-Fans.

Bien sûr, il y'a des AA-Fans allemand. :D
Oh, and I'm not the only one, eheh.

I'll hush now... pardon !

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December 22nd, 1944
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---
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Post #: 42
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/20/2007 11:45:38 AM   
Cenubi

 

Posts: 7
Joined: 1/15/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

(1) Can we build upon the PC4War work? Meaning will we big given legal access to it? Is it a good point of departure?


Là-dessus je rejoins JeF

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

(2) What do you think about assembling a mini-table of content for an abridged manual as step one? Step two would be to prioritize the various sections so that the most useful areas get covered first.


C'est ce que j'avais en tête en effet. A mon avis c'est ce qu'il y a de mieux à faire dans un premier temps. Je veux bien m'y coller (avec tous ceux qui le souhaitent bien sûr N'hésitez pas à me le faire savoir)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

(3) Should this be done as a Wiki so that it could be collaborative effort of a number of authors?


Très bonne idée

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

(4) I believe it is not practical to translate the entire documentation set, but maybe enough can be covered to get beyond the obstacle French speakers might have buying the game.


Oui c'est vrai et comme l'a très justement dit Ugo ce serait de toute façon très difficile de réaliser une traduction intégrale qui conserve la qualité de l'original...

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

(6) Do you know any other French customers who might help with the project?


Je m'y intéresse et je te tiens au courant

quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot

Thanks.


De rien

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Post #: 43
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/20/2007 4:22:14 PM   
lian

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline 		Bon et bien je vais profiter honteusement de la possibilité de parler français. J'ai un double écran et le jeu fonctionne très bien en mode de lancement "match the screen resolution": je peux profiter du second écran pour lire le fichier pdf Reference Manual par exemple :-)
Par contre, si j'essaie de le lancer avec l'attribut "-resolution 1280x1024" ma résolution par défaut, cette possibilité disparait (la souris ne peut pas passer sur le second écran). Est-ce qu'il y a possibilité de lancer le jeu avec un attribut "-resolution screen resolution" ?

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Post #: 44
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/20/2007 5:07:44 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
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From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lian

Bon et bien je vais profiter honteusement de la possibilité de parler français. J'ai un double écran et le jeu fonctionne très bien en mode de lancement "match the screen resolution": je peux profiter du second écran pour lire le fichier pdf Reference Manual par exemple :-)
Par contre, si j'essaie de le lancer avec l'attribut "-resolution 1280x1024" ma résolution par défaut, cette possibilité disparait (la souris ne peut pas passer sur le second écran). Est-ce qu'il y a possibilité de lancer le jeu avec un attribut "-resolution screen resolution" ?


Essayer avec "-resolution default"

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx



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Post #: 45
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/20/2007 5:32:53 PM   
lian

 

Posts: 19
Joined: 1/20/2007
Status: offline 		Très bien. Merci :-)

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Post #: 46
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/20/2007 5:55:50 PM   
Tzar007


Posts: 772
Joined: 2/7/2004
From: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Status: offline 		Ah bien ça alors, je viens d'apprendre un nouveau truc... J'ai moi aussi deux écrans, dont un écran réglé à 1280x1024 et j'avais modifié le raccourci avec -resolution 1280x1024 et j'avais les mêmes problèmes que lian. Drôle de voir qu'avec resolution default, COTA reste en 1280x1024 mais qu'au moins je peux circuler facilement d'un écran à l'autre !

Vivre le thread français

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Post #: 47
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/20/2007 6:08:17 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		Well, I am happy this thread is doing some good.

For those, who happen to speak something besides English or French, Panther/Matrix has no problem opening further sticky threads or even sub-forums for other language groups.

The initial effort with French was inspired by the appearance of a number of articles/awards COTA was receiving in French print publications. We decided to initially go with a sticky thread as opposed to a sub-forum, since an empty stagnant sub-forum would have looked pretty silly if the idea did not catch on.

So, if you feel that your interests/player community will be better served by a similar sticky thread, please let us know. Also, if you have any inclination to migrate some portion of the documentation to your native language, also let us know if there is anything that we can do to assist you.

It was never the intention that the series should be soley for English speakers, but as Ugo so clearly explained (in French) full localization is well beyond the means of a small company such as Panther Games. The best we can hope for is that dedicated non-English speaking players will see the value of improving the accessibility of the series within their own language group and do something about it.

Thanks.

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Post #: 48
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 1/20/2007 6:26:47 PM   
Widell


Posts: 913
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: Trollhättan, Sweden
Status: offline 		Hey! What about Swedish! Oh, sh*t, forgot that we made a big deal out of going to Germany and most of northern Europe in the 17th century and later had to import a French King to save the monarchy (one could argue about the sanity in that, oui, oui, but that was in the 18th century). Then, a small glitch in the action, and we're at the 21st century and all of a sudden, there's no cold war, only a global market. Only 9 million speak Swedish as their first language (and probably out of those, 1 million has relatives in other countries speaking other languages) and the % playing war games most likely will deal with the manual and the forums as they are = Mainly in some version of English. I consider myself to fluent in Swenglish, but based on the differences between US, British, Aussie and Indian English, I have learned to cope with my own shortcomings.....

On the serious side, I know that the people over at TOAW III made some fuzz over language versions of the game itself, most of them seemingly developed by the community in exchange for free copies of the game. Not sure that a version of that could be used here, but at least its proof somehting can be done (And no, please no Swedish versions of anything......)


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Post #: 49
Looking for Andre Bonet - 1/21/2007 1:11:06 AM   
Arjuna


Posts: 17785
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From: Canberra, Australia
Status: offline 		Andre Bonet,

Can you please email me at dave[at]panthergames[dot]com re french translation of COTA manual. David Heath cannot decipher your handwritten email address and all combinations we've tried to date have failed.

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Post #: 50
RE: Looking for Andre Bonet - 1/22/2007 11:15:16 PM   
JeF


Posts: 1170
Joined: 4/1/2003
From: Belgium
Status: offline 		Salut,

Je viens d'avoir confirmation de JP Liardet, rédacteur de PC4WAR, qu'une version plus complète du manuel traduit se trouvera dans le CD ROM du prochain numéro (le 25). Il contacte l'auteur pour voir si je pourrais le mettre en download sur mon site.

Dave, if you have contact with André regarding this manual, can you copy me or forward me his email ? Thanks.

A+

JeF.

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Post #: 51
RE: Looking for Andre Bonet - 1/22/2007 11:22:29 PM   
lian

 

Posts: 19
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Status: offline 		Bonne nouvelle :-) (surtout que je n'achète pas PC4war).

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Post #: 52
RE: Looking for Andre Bonet - 1/22/2007 11:24:36 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		Okay, things are becoming clearer.

Andre Bonet >>> IS <<< the author of the PC4WAR mini-manual, but there is actually a longer version? JeF, does Monsieur Liardet have a means to reach Andre? I would assume that he would if he published an abridged version of his work. Dave H and Dave O don't seem to have a valid email address for him.

Thanks.

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Post #: 53
RE: Looking for Andre Bonet - 1/26/2007 8:01:54 PM   
Phil91

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 1/26/2007
Status: offline 		Bonjour à tous

Je suis très heureux de voir que la langue de Molière est enfin présente sur ce forum très interressant concernant COTA.

Je fais partis de ceux qui ne comprène pas grand chose à la langue de Shakespear mais qui adore COTA. Aussi lorsque j'ai appris qu'une traduction du manuel était enfin dispo sur CD4WAR n°24, je me suis précipité dessus. Oups ! que ne fut pas ma déception de ne constater que seulement 20 pages étaient présente. Domage car celles-ci sont remarquablement bien traduite.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JeF

Salut,

Je viens d'avoir confirmation de JP Liardet, rédacteur de PC4WAR, qu'une version plus complète du manuel traduit se trouvera dans le CD ROM du prochain numéro (le 25). Il contacte l'auteur pour voir si je pourrais le mettre en download sur mon site.



Il s'agit la d'une très très bonne nouvelle!!!!!!

Je laisse mon PC allumer pour savoir quand cela sera disponible.

Encore un grand merci à tous ceux qui travaillent bénévolement ou pas pour des gros féniants comme moi qui auraient du écouter les cours d'anglais au lieu de mater la voisine en mini jupe!!!

Merci

Phil91

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Post #: 54
RE: Looking for Andre Bonet - 1/28/2007 10:56:20 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		Phil91,

Bienvenue a notre communite de COTA!

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Post #: 55
RE: Looking for Andre Bonet - 1/28/2007 11:11:17 PM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		Another official unofficial announcement ... FLASH: As of today, a small group of dedicated COTA players have embarked on an effort to render about 100 pages of critical game play information for COTA and the series in general into French (yes, the language of Moliere)! At the moment, this is an all volunteer effort, but does involve some members of the Beta Team. However, I have been assure by the management no raises will be handed out as a result of this effort.

Well, I make this announcement for a number of reasons:

(1) For those of you who are French speaking and effectively have felt inhibited from buying COTA due to language issues, we hope to resolve that in a satisfactory fashion in the near future.

(2) We gladly welcome any other French speaking volunteers to join our effort. You do not need to be able to write in English only have a sufficient reading knowledge to translate it. Our activities are being coordinated in both English and French, but it always acceptable to write only in French if that is what is most convenient. If interested, send me a PM.

(3) For anyone else following this thread who neither speak English or French as a first language, consider that this is an experiment to see how far the player community can go to pseudo-localize the game.

---

JeF n'est pas ici m'aider traduire. Cette semaine, il fait une voyage. Je vais ecrire tres simple.

Au'jourd'hui nous avons commencer traduire le material plus necessaire pour joeur COTA en Francais (100 feulles pages?). Il ne faut pas avoir peur. Ce n'est pas moi qui va faire le travail. :)

Nous invitons l'autres personne qui parle Francais travailler avec nous. Si vous etes interesse, PM moi. Il ne faut pas ecrire en Anglais; seulment lire.

Merci.

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Post #: 56
RE: Looking for Andre Bonet - 1/29/2007 8:07:55 AM   
JeF


Posts: 1170
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From: Belgium
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MarkShot
JeF n'est pas ici m'aider traduire. Cette semaine, il fait une voyage. Je vais ecrire tres simple.


Je suis encore là pour quelques heures.

Mark, c'est parfait : tu es bien meilleur que Bablefish !

Seulement ...
quote:

Si vous etes interesse, PM moi. Il ne faut pas ecrire en Anglais; seulment lire.


Mark veut dire que vous pouvez lui écrire en français. Il le lit très bien. Il vous répondra très certainement en anglais.

A+

JeF.

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Post #: 57
RE: Looking for Andre Bonet - 1/29/2007 10:55:34 AM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
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From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JeF
Mark veut dire que vous pouvez lui écrire en français. Il le lit très bien. Il vous répondra très certainement en anglais.


ou en franglais

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to JeF)
Post #: 58
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 2/22/2007 1:49:10 AM   
Nemo69


Posts: 685
Joined: 2/18/2004
From: Nowhere to be seen
Status: offline 		Bonjour,

Juste un petit bonjour de la part d'un tout récent acquéreur de CotA - j'ai craqué ce soir, sorti la Visa et déchargé le jeu

J'en suis au tutoriel pour l'instant, mais ce que je peux en voir me confirme les excellentes impressions recueillies de tous côtés. Bravo à l'équipe de développeurs et de testeurs.

Je repasserai sans doute par ici d'ici peu avec des questions de bleu-bite - à bientôt donc

Marc


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Post #: 59
RE: Here's an idea for Matrix - 2/22/2007 2:09:55 AM   
MarkShot

 

Posts: 7089
Joined: 3/29/2003
Status: offline 		Nemo69,

Welcome to the community! And on behalf of PG, thanks for your compliments on the game.

May I ask how did you become aware of the game? Was it due to recent coverage in PC4War or Cyberstratege?

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(於 11/13/21 台北，台灣，中國退休)

(in reply to Nemo69)
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